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Has anybody ever added a Super Tweeter to their Klipsch speakers?


vman71

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I am with you, DD. Mark has confirmed the phenomenon, but we still don't know WHY. It would effectly prove the point about 22khz being too low a cut off point for Redbook if you did this experiment with an amp that did not pass anything beyond 22khz and one that did and were able to clearly tell the difference.

Sure would like to understand the why of it...

The phase response of the steep filters used for anti-aliasing are probably the culprit. Frequency-dependent delays that are created by the filtering tend to smear time-related information that extends into the audible region.

Don

Honk if you love Horns

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>The phase response of the steep filters used for anti-aliasing are probably the culprit. Frequency-dependent delays that are created by the filtering tend to smear time-related information that extends into the audible region.

No sir. There are several situations we've discussed not involving those filters.

Your thoughts on this, Mark?

Dave

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Sam Tellig reviewed the La scala for Stereophile in November 2006 ( I think ) and found that adding a pair of super tweeters (don't remember brand, am at work now) improved their sound (to him). He thought very highly of them, and the La Scala is currently listed as a "Class A - limited low frequency extension" speaker by Stereophile.

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Sam Tellig, the reviewer in Stereophile, bought the review pair of LaScalas he was loaned to audition. From there he gave them an "A" rating in their anual list of reccomended products. He listed that he added super-tweeters to his set up, but I cannot remember which brand. He said it was a dramatic and nice improvement.

Travis

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I have heard those Tannoy super tweeters - but only on larger Tannoy's.

As far as I know they only come in at about 20 KHz - which is way beyond my hearing (16 KHz when last tested - about 2 years ago).

Funny thing is - they do make a slight difference to the sound - even to me. God only knows why....

Larry Claire tried to explain this to me once, and I did some reading up on it, and got even more confused, so maybe he will jump in here. According to Larry, 2nd and 3rd harmonics go way, way above 20hz. And even though you may be limited in that range, the brain can still pick up the differences.

Travis

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Reaching WAY back, this business of very high audio frequencies reminds me of reviews of cartridges built for the RCA "discrete" quad system for LP's. That system encoded the two rear channels by doubling their frequencies, then reversing on playback. That, of course, required cartridges good out to 50khz or so. Interesting thing is that reviewers said these cartridges sounded better on 2 channel material using non-encoder equiped preamps. That jives with Mark Deneens post about the Citation wide response amps having a similar positive effect even the the material was beyond human hearing.

All very interesting...

Dave

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[:D] With the new titanium drivers in the HIII's I have no need for super tweeters, I get a real well balanced, abundance of high frequency information.

Recently I inherited a pair of 1962 kHorns, they too have a sparkling high end.

Geez, I like these speakers... [:D]

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1) "Beyond your hearing" ---- may not be ----- beyond your hearing. Many (most?) audiologists measure dB down at THRESHOLD. I propose that hearing that is, say, 10 dB below normal at 15 K at THRESHOLD (and "normal" itself is down at high or low frequencies especially at threshold) may only be a few dB below normal at 85 dB, which may be about the SPL of the high frequencies during a 110 dB orchestral climax, with millisecond leading edge peaks that are much higher.
2) I've always wondered if something that measures "flat" with steady tones or sweeps from an audio oscillator is still flat when measured with transient bursts of high amplitude and known frequency characteristics. Since electro-mechanical transducers (JBL's buzz-term) are put under more strain (presumably) by steep wavefronts at high SPLs, maybe they treat the frequency spectrum differently at those high levels. And cones, domes, and diaphragms in compression tweeters may systematically differ by design type in their abilities to maintain flat frequency response during these transients. Anybody know?
3) The differences in the reproduction of cymbal crashes often show up great differences in components IMO -- is this related to the two points above?
Vman71: As to your 075s (JBL's original "bullet tweeter" or "orange juice squeezer"), there were long controversies in the 1960's & 70's as to which was better, the 075, or the Electrovoice T35 (which, when hand selected and paired, became the K77 series of Klipsch tweeters and is in the Klipschorn, and La Scala II to this day). About half the people with an opinion that I came in contact with favored each, Many pointed out that there was a tendency to turn the 075 up too far, making it harsh. That sort of thing maybe why PWK refused to have balance controls on his crossover networks, One engineer claimed that the 075 had a big peak at about 11K. Another, John Curl, who became star amplifier designer at Parasound (Hi, John!) said he preferred the K77, but didn't have extensive experience with the 075. This was waaaay back when he worked briefly for Joe Minor's Berkeley Custom Electronics. I was an advocate of the 075 back then, because it seemed so damn clear! Both could be screechy with bad Lps, but were great with good recordings. I finally had a chance to hear them both in the same room, in their respective speaker systems. The crossover for the 075 cut it in above 7K, and the K-77 cut in at 6K -- couldn't do anything about that difference. My impression after protracted listening was that the K-77 was warmer, and the 075 could be either clearer or harsher, depending on the recording.
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Gary,

Thanks for the piece of information/history of the JBL 075 bullet tweeter. I'm having second thoughts on getting this integrated with either my KLF-20's or my Chorus II's. I've definitely squashed any idea of trying to build a vintage 2-way JBL speaker. So, I think that I'm going to sell this pair of JBL 075 bullet tweeters. I just thought it was going to be alot easier and less complicated to integrate these as super tweeters with my Klipsch speakers.

Hopefully they find themselves a nice new home.

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Fostex makes a number of top-mount tweeters just for this purpose. Madisound sells a kit that uses one of them, and it's simply a matter of installing a capacitor in series with it to establish the crossover frequency (usually quite high) Stereophile has done this a number of times in the past, and the same is also done with full-rangers like Lowthers (and again Fostex). A friend of mine recently bought four of the Fostex super tweeters, but were not the really expensive ones. These were in the $150 range, I think @ www.madisound.com He likes them.

It's one of those things, I suppose, that someone should try for themselves to see if it's an improvement or not. I'm going to get a pair for my Lowthers one of these days, but don't feel the need to use them with the Klipschorns. Bob Crites' new drivers did the trick for us there. I tried a pair of add-on car audio tweeters, which actually were okay for some recordings. On others they sounded tinny and not very musical. I think those from Fostex I'm thinking about are in the 106dB range, so in some cases might need padding down.

Erik

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I remembered Townshend Super Tweeters. I was seriously considering a pair of these a few years ago, but haven't yet. They are pretty expensive at $1,500 (the last I saw) but have gotten some outstanding reviews. They have a built in gain control to match the output of the main speakers, and of course can be moved back and forth on the top of the cabinet as needed for best sound.

Erik

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 Kaiser has some 800 series B&W's that have a tweeter on top. Is it a super tweeter? If it is or isn't I really like it alot.

b&w-804s-speaker-tweeter.jpg

 

Looks like someone put a microphone on top of the speaker. It's like 2 totally separate things instead of a designed whole. Hope it sounds good, though...

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