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External Phono Preamp Preferences


Mallette

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It's been a while since this has been visited and with so many young ears turning to records for a "new" experience and so many oldtimers returning to their roots maybe it's a good time to revisit. I am interested in maximum price performance. Now, if your ears say you cannot get squat for less than 2k, that is price performance. However, let's try to concentrate on avoiding raiding the kids college fund.

For instance, I use a TCC TC-778 for my 78rpm setup (http://www.phonopreamps.com/) and audiophiles and general listeners are blown away with how good they sound. Paid 63.50 for it. I've never tried it on LP's so I don't know how it would stack up against my Super PAS4i preamp phono section. However, it certainly wouldn't sound awful I am sure. I've seen 78rpm preamps for 300/2k though I find it hard to imagine an improvement that would justify those pricesMy first external was a Musical Fidelity that I paid around 100.00 for and I found it quite nice. I've seen some really nice looking tube preamps at reasonable prices...the Bellari VP129 at 250.00 or so comes to mind.

What are your thoughts and experiences?

Regards,
Dave

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This won't break the bank and the sound is ALL triode (unlike many cheapies which hang a tube on the output).

Knowing the build quality and reputation I'd certainly have no qualms on that one. Whether it "breaks the bank" depends on whether we are talking a curious college student or committed audiophile ("committed" being an intentional double entendre!).

Does the Bellari just hang a tube on the output? And what are the precieved or real benefits of tube rectification over SCR or whatever SS rectification is now the norm? I would expect that tube would be the one most likely to fail given the work it does. Unless the benefit are unquestionable it seems SS rectification would be prefereable.

Dave

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>I like tube rectifiers, but they do cost more and are less reliable than SS diodes.

The question is why? I like steam engines and am willing to spend extra for them, but the end result is scientifically the same.

Dave

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Rick Rigler just left. He brought over his bottlehead phono preamp which is now hooked up to my system. [:D]

Sounds flawless. We did a number of my better LP's, Louis Armstrong (1966), Crystal Clear Direct Cut Organ and Brass. We compared the Louis directly to the 24/88.2 digital version I recorded. I'll leave it to him to comment on that.

I'm going to enjoy it for a while. He brought me a few of his favorite LP's which I am going to high res digitize and decompress as rent. Fair enough deal!

I'll post some pix of his work when I get the chance.

Dave

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Dave,

Generally, when I go to audio meets or friendly get-togethers, I get to listen to some different gear; some good, some very good, and some that leave me asking myself, “you paid how much for that?”, or “you think THAT sounds good?” Of course, it is all subjective, each to his own, etc. We all have our own tastes and preferences, and we have no idea what may sound good to the next person, or if the sound I like will sound right to them.

Anyhow, I may leave said audio meet feeling just a little humbled, but smiling about all the good sounds I heard. But when I get back home and fire up my system, you know what; I am still smiling ‘cause it sounds pretty darn good, too; at least to me.

And then I had to go to your place…thanks!

Your system is so accurate and, well, large. There is really nothing that compares with anything I have heard to date. I like my system a lot, and it think it is pretty accurate, albeit on a much smaller scale that what I heard today.

The Louis Armstrong was pristine. You had it turned up very loud, but it was very clean and absent of any distortion. The only time I cringed was when I thought something was crawling on my head, but it was actually the SPLs moving my hair; and, oh, the bass was perfect!

I only wish my vinyl rig was as advanced as yours. I am not experiencing that vinyl magic yet in my system, but today I did with yours. And the hi-res digital capture was indeed a near perfect image of the vinyl we heard yet a few seconds prior. The only comment I might have there is that the vinyl playback seemed just a tad quieter. Of course the noise floor can vary from play to play. And you have been having issues with your PAS pre. But there was no lack of resolution in either playback. Bottom line, I have heard no CD with that resolution!

Enjoy the Seduction for a while. I will say again that Bottlehead gear is one of the better/best values in hi-fi.

Rick

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Reading this thread I realise that I have actually owned my external phono pre-amp for quite a while now (about 5 years). Mine is the Acoustic Signature Tango and I have to say I have been delighted with it.

My first phono box was exactly that - the Project Phono box - about $70 from memory and perfectly servicable for MM carts. Sadly its MC performance was not there and as I moved into that type of cart it was essentail to upgrade.

During a weekend from hell I auditioned 11 phono stages - cant even remember them all now - and it came down to 2 - this one and the Clearaudio Basic 2. I really liked the sound of the clearaudio - but it was quite coloured to my ears and in the end I plumped for the Tango just because it appeared to me to be the most neutral of all of the options.

Some of the other candidates included 2 phonos from project - including one tube one, a Primare phono, the Clearaudio Phono, the Lehman Black cube and various others.

Aside from the neutrality of the Tango I liked the flexibility - you can change most of the loading settings (impedance, gain, capacitance) and to date I have not found a cartridge I cannot drive properly. The maximum gain of 65dB has proven enough to drive carts down to 0.25 mv outputs - not tried anything less - may well work lower. Certainly with my 103 - 0.3 output I have similar volume levels to the CD player, if not slightly greater.

Heaven knows how it compares with other newer items. Its just one of those items I no longer look at.

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Rick:
Thanks for coming. I had just been telling the PAW how starved I was for Klipsch Kompany and Kamaraderie (jeez, unfortunate set of K's). We did hit 106db on the Festival Intrada! Sorry about that, but I suppose I was a bit carried away with the moment and there are times when I want the music to totally flush away the world. The PAW snagged that Louis album in a resale store in Florida a few years ago. It is one of my favorites, both technically and, well, what can one say about satchmo?

I particularly enjoyed your reaction to the Kid Ory "Muskrat Ramble." Many would question why one would record an 80 year old disc in 24/88.2, but mostly those who've never experienced the joy of a (probably) direct cut disk of a master played back properly. I do not understand the disdain for 78's. I have yet to hear any transfer, either to LP or CD, as good as the original. These things can have reality and presence that rival any modern recording as well as provding the closest thing to time travel we'll ever experience.

I am going to order replacements for the Super PAS4i switches this week. I thought the trepanning job I'd done fixed it, but they still aren't perfect and I've had enough. I don't know what the deal is with them, but they are the weakest point in an otherwise fine design. Frank is an ornery ol'fahrt, but he knows his stuff and his kits, rebuilds, and original designs are well worth a look and his prices.

I am also glad you enjoyed the high res transfers. As I told you, I may be even more radical than some of the "analog forever" types in that I look at my record collection as a trust that I hope will be maintained by my children and grand children indefinitely. For that reason casual play of these archives is something I consider a hazard to be minimized, especiallly when one can hear them without putting them at risk. I do not view archiving one's analog treasures as "going over to the dark side" as much as simply being responsible and trying to think beyond my own time. It also allows me to enjoy them on my other systems as well as to share with friends.

As to the system, I am humbled and pleased. I only have maybe 5k tied up in it as money has always been an issue. The VPI and the Super PAS4i are the only items purchased new.

Finally, thanks for the use of the Seduction. Your expertise and craftsmanship show both in the build quality and the sound. I am going to set it up such that I can switch between it and the Super PAS4i phono section as well as through either the Panasonic digital or ST70 amp. BTW, you will have to come get it as I will be done with it when you come for it!

Like the PAW said, come back when you can stay longer!

Regards,
Dave

PS - I think you missed getting away with a couple of the CD's I gave you. I'll keep them hostage for your next visit.

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I have a decent phono rig; VPI Scout, Zu Denon DL103 with step-up transformer, all playing into an Adcom GFP 565 preamp using the phono stage and out the tape loop. It sounds great and is dead quite. I've never felt the need to upgrade this piece and they can be found used for around $250 pretty regularly.

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Rick Rigler just left. He brought over his bottlehead phono preamp which is now hooked up to my system. Big Smile

Sounds flawless. Dave

I too have a Bottlehead Seduction and LOVE it!

Mal If you havnt done so already, make sure you puchase the $75 Camille Cascode Constant Current Source (C4S) upgrade. The improvement is dramatic! You get a bit more gain, but more importantly with a much lower, jet black, noise floor. Takes about an 1/2 hr to install.

IMO this unit is one of the best sounding DIY phono pre-amps out there and only $354 (incl C4S upgrade)

WopOnTour

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Yes indeed, it does have the C4S installed. Along with more gain, I also noticed that it tightened up the bass; a little cleaner. Although I enjoy it very much, my turntable is mid-fi at best and needing a little work; I can only envision better sound in my future. It sounded extra special on Dave's rig, as I posted above.

Rick

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