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Another Musician Laments the CD


joshnich

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>Their dynamics blow CD's away.

Not possible. Even 45 rpm has to be dynamically compressed. I am not saying they may not have other qualities that outshine CD's to your ears, but it really cannot be dynamics. The CD has issues, but it can handle the entire dynamic range of human hearing. OK, not a nuclear blast, but anything you will hear in a concert hall.

Dave

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>Their dynamics blow CD's away.

Not possible. Even 45 rpm has to be dynamically compressed. I am not saying they may not have other qualities that outshine CD's to your ears, but it really cannot be dynamics. The CD has issues, but it can handle the entire dynamic range of human hearing. OK, not a nuclear blast, but anything you will hear in a concert hall.

Once, again, I am referring to real-world experience, not hypotheticals. YMMV.

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CDs may measure very well, but low-level information tends to be missing, since the 16-bit (15 bits for signal plus one bit for checksum) spec doesn't allow for as much dynamic range as you might expect. When CDs first came out, everyone was impressed by how quiet they were, but performance spaces are not silent. There are always some background sounds, which give you an idea of the size of the performance space, as well as the quiet sounds of the finer details of the performance itself. See if you can hear that low level of sound on a CD.

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CDs may measure very well, but low-level information tends to be missing, since the 16-bit (15 bits for signal plus one bit for checksum) spec doesn't allow for as much dynamic range as you might expect.

What he said. lol

Dynamics are the relationship between the low-level info and the high level.

If the low-level info is lacking, there are reduced dynamics.

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Unfortunately, I have too many CDs where there IS low level noise from the concert hall. It's on the LP version too. My mileage does vary, from CD to CD, but it isn't just theoretical, LPs don't have the dynamic range of CDs.

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I think that unfortunately the general public has little to no concern about sound quality. Ask your friends who are not in the audio scene. Most will never have heard of DVD-A or SACD, or BluRay. Most feel audio has become too complicated. MP3 and iPods exist because ultimately, people are lazy. I feel even 5.1 is a scam. Big stores try to sell the consumer a Chinese receiver, 5 crappy speakers and a dinky sub when they should be selling them a quality 2 channel system that would ultimately sound better on all sources. Have you seen the pictures on Audiogon of members systems? Cramming five speakers in a room ten by twelve will almost always sound worse than two quality speakers in a room that size. Universal players are not the answer. I've owned three and none did justice to all of the formats, as compromises always exist. Many use a DVD player for CD playback which is akin to playing your LP's on a Barbie record player. I think ultimately BluRay is doomed as well. Downloads and the complete absence of physical media is the dream of all recording companies. Microsoft and others are all getting ready to release download services that will rethink the way we watch movies. iTunes has 28 percent of the music market, in a very short time. And still most people I talk to don't even use it, they prefer to get their music "free". Yes, large numbers of people continue to steal music because; they can, and they don't care about it's quality. And judging from the music that is popular, I doubt if quality playback would help. These are bleak times we live in for sure, and a far cry from the "Golden Age of Audio" when most people owned a Hi-Fi of some sort that was capable of delivering quality playback. And don't think musicians are the saviors either. Most professional musicians care little about audio playback. They are not listening for soundstage, or air, they are intent on hearing music. Ever seen "Cribs" on MTV? You'd think if you have enough money for three Lambos, two Rolls and a ten million dollar mansion that the audio system would be...well something other than hidden speakers driven by a Denon AVR? And worse, they work for big business which took over the recording industry in the 70's and 80's. Producers, engineers and the whole lot are intent on selling you what they want, overly compressed crap that will have lots of bass and screaching highs to make your Delco car radio sound "good". Flip through a magazine of most any sort from the 60's or 70's, there were lots of ads for all kinds of hi-fi. Today it is mostly reserved for stereo and electronics mags. Marketing has forced a change that none of us here like, but we can continue to change peoples perceptions by displaying what we know and enjoy to those less informed.

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FWIW, from http://www.audioholics.com/education/audio-formats-technology/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4/dynamic-comparison-of-lps-vs-cds-part-4-page-2

"Notice that although the quiet section at the beginning is also
around -24dB, the louder section that follows has much higher peaks,
ranging from -18-9dB! This is despite both recordings having the same
average RMS power (in other words, same perceived average loudness). In
particular, the loud bit around 30 seconds into the track is peaking at
up to 3-4dB higher on LP vs CD!


"This finding supports my own subjective impressions comparing the
CD against the LP. I much prefer listening to the LP over the CD on my
system. The CD sounds dull, congested, muddy, and lacking in dynamics.
If I push up the volume, the sound becomes noticeably harsh and
artificial. The LP on the other hand sounds more "dynamic" and
"exciting."

The above is just a snippet from the entire article. YMMV. [H]

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Producers, engineers and the whole lot are intent on selling you what they want, overly compressed crap that will have lots of bass and screaching highs to make your Delco car radio sound "good".

Sounds like Phil Spector is alive and well. lol [Y]

Seriously, you do have a point. My hat is off to those artists who try to control their product and provide quality.

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Producers, engineers and the whole lot are intent on selling you what they want, overly compressed crap that will have lots of bass and screaching highs to make your Delco car radio sound "good".

 

Sounds like Phil Spector is alive and well.  lol  Yes

Seriously, you do have a point.  My hat is off to those artists who try to control their product and provide quality. 

Ah yes, the "Wall of Sound". I too, tip my hat to artists like Patricia Barber who continue to take a vested interest in the end result. Few and far between.

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Producers, engineers and the whole lot are intent on selling you what they want, overly compressed crap that will have lots of bass and screaching highs to make your Delco car radio sound "good".

 

Sounds like Phil Spector is alive and well.  lol  Yes

Seriously, you do have a point.  My hat is off to those artists who try to control their product and provide quality. 

Ah yes, the "Wall of Sound". I too, tip my hat to artists like Patricia Barber who continue to take a vested interest in the end result. Few and far between.

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Producers, engineers and the whole lot are intent on selling you what they want, overly compressed crap that will have lots of bass and screaching highs to make your Delco car radio sound "good".

 

Sounds like Phil Spector is alive and well.  lol  Yes

Seriously, you do have a point.  My hat is off to those artists who try to control their product and provide quality. 

Ah yes, the "Wall of Sound". I too, tip my hat to artists like Patricia Barber who continue to take a vested interest in the end result. Few and far between.

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This one had gone a bit weird. As the owner of several thousand LP's, 78's, reels, tapes, and even cylinders, I can't be said to be anti-analog. OTOH, I have experience with analog recording going back to vacuum tube Magnecorders and every analog recorder I ever used required dynamic compression, or gain riding. When I do a location recording with digital, I set the peak and I am done. Never have to touch it. More room than my ears can hear.

There is no way one can argue with what another hears and I am not going to go there.

You may feel you hear wider dynamic range, but it is not going to measure. That's fine. Vacuum tube amps don't measure as well as SS...but they sound better to many of us. But that doesn't make the measurements any better.

Dave

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Ok, Buck, I vote "aye" as well...[H]

Bill:

The Buckster knows of my efforts over the years to determine why the CD appeared to be lacking. I'll not reprise that decade long journey here, but perhaps it will help you to understand my position. You can get the jist of it from looking at forum response to the location recording I've made in the past eight years or so and offered to this forum to critique.

The bottom line was that, while good ears can definitely hear the limitations of the CD format, when properly done it can be extraordinarily good and compete with all but the finest LP's. At 24/88.2 and above it is a dead heat, with the digital format surpassing analog in terms of S/N and dynamics. My LP to digital transfers A/B as a virtual tie at 24/88.2 and above.

Bottom line is that what your ears hear is more dependent on the engineer than on the media.

Dave

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Bottom line is that what your ears hear is more dependent on the engineer than on the media.

I would tend to agree with your generalization. I'd call it the human factor.

I know that I would tend to select music that sounds best through my system, back in the seventies. Some stuff just sounded great. So, that's what I'd play.

It would seem that the engineer who best utilizes their format would be more successful.

I know that in the late eighties and early nineties I would A/B 12" singles and CD's. I never heard a CD that was superior to the vinyl. That's my experience and what I was trying to convey. Perhaps things have improved?

I was also pushing things to the limit with equipment that drew 80+ amp peak potential. Not exactly like listening in your living room.

OTOH, I will be getting paid to play CD's this evening. I can easily grab a few thousand CD's and be prepared. If I was able to empty my storage space, and spend a few weeks searching, and carry a ton of records.... I could do it with vinyl. But I'm too lazy. lol

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>Perhaps things have improved?

I think you'd find many on this forum who'd say "Yes." The CD has not improved, but many have learned what it takes to maximize this format. I think I've found a solution to making my recordings available again in a month or so on line, so perhaps you'll have a chance to judge for yourself.

Regards,
Dave

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