Another Musician Laments the CD

[Bill Cain]

The CD has not improved, but many have learned what it takes to maximize this format. I think I've found a solution to making my recordings available again in a month or so on line, so perhaps you'll have a chance to judge for yourself.

Human beings are a crafty lot. Sooner or later they'll figure out how to make something work.

Best of luck in your quest.

[Mallette]

The CD has not improved, but many have learned what it takes to maximize this format. I think I've found a solution to making my recordings available again in a month or so on line, so perhaps you'll have a chance to judge for yourself.

Human beings are a crafty lot. Sooner or later they'll figure out how to make something work.

Best of luck in your quest.

Yezzir. Some years ago a good boss I had told me "It is not enough to simply object. You must offer an alternative."

Dave

[Deang]

I don't agree at all, a lot of you listen to some really lousy stuff.

Hey Dean, I would like to believe you had your "tongue in cheek" when you wrote that .......... EH ?????

Of course, and more than you know. There is irony too, because many here know what I like to listen too -- and most of it would put half the forum in the fetal positon.

[oldbuckster]

The wonderful thing about MUSIC is, There is something for everyone to enjoy !!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mallette]

>Of course, and more than you know. There is irony too, because many here know what I like to listen too -- and most of it would put half the forum in the fetal positon.

OK, I am intrigued and have missed your preferences somehow. Must know! I suspect there are not many with wider tolerance than me. Heck, I have a passion for classic Chinese grand opera! []

Dave

[Deang]

Pretty much anything with dirty, grinding, chunky guitars and drummers with eight arms and four legs. Any singer that can belt out the notes in a way that puts them at risk of a brain hemorrhage gets a big thumbs up. I still drift over into the classic rock stuff from time to time, and I'm a big fan of Justin Hayward and the Moody Blues. Still, I'm pretty much burned out on most of the stuff I grew up with, and the majority of Jazz and Classical just puts me to sleep. I like most of the Drop D and Drop C stuff: Disturbed, Korn, Linkin Park, Three Days Grace, System of a Down, Mudvayne, Avenged Sevenfold, Deftones, etc.

[JBryan]

Mallette wrote: Heck, I have a passion for classic Chinese grand opera!

Now that is impressive! I went to a traditional Chinese opera and came away thinking that I'd prefer just drilling a hole in my head - its kinda the same thing in my book. On the other hand, I do enjoy 'No Wave' music (James Chance and the Contortionists and such) and that seems to run even the most "tolerant" of my friends out of the room as well. Musical taste is a funny thing...

[Hifi jim]

Mallette wrote: Heck, I have a passion for classic Chinese grand opera!

Now that is impressive! I went to a traditional Chinese opera and came away thinking that I'd prefer just drilling a hole in my head - its kinda the same thing in my book. On the other hand, I do enjoy 'No Wave' music (James Chance and the Contortionists and such) and that seems to run even the most "tolerant" of my friends out of the room as well. Musical taste is a funny thing...

Agreed. There's an old saying in the car business; "There's an *** for every seat."

[oldbuckster]

Disturbed, Korn, Linkin Park, Three Days Grace, System of a Down, Mudvayne, Avenged Sevenfold, Deftones, etc.

I am speechless ...................... I would never have guessed those choices ! There is no Right or Wrong music ................

[Mallette]

I lived in Asia for a number of years and developed a love for all sorts of Asian music. The Chinese have compostions predating Western polyphony by several centuries and known composers going back a thousand years. Not all of it is that which sounds like cacaphony to the western ear. Thier symphonies, concertos, and other works often take me to the same reveries as Bach, Beethoven, Debussy, et al.

Granted, Chinese grand opera takes a bit of time to acquire a taste for, but you really have to understand the stories! Some are equal to or more awesome than Wagner. Indonesian shadow opera is pretty extraordinary with some epice pieces lasting over 20 hours.

Dave

[JBryan]

Well, Chinese opera is definitely not based on the western 12-tone equal temperament scale and some of those soloists can hit notes that will peel paint. The opera I went to had a synopsis of the story in the program. It was an enjoyable read but offered me no bearing on what was going on on-stage. The music was good if very different from expected - lots of percussion. It was the vocals that rubbed me wrong.

[Rivendell61]

I am not saying they may not have other qualities that outshine CD's to your ears, but it really cannot be dynamics.

Yes, what people hear--or think they hear--can be misleading.

Actual LP dynamic range is not bad in the 'middle' frequencies but....not equal to CD.

LPs can give the impression of greater dynamic range than they have.
As J.D. Johnston points out in his loudness vs intensity pp:

"LP distortion grows with level. That means that as level grows, the signal bandwidth (including the distortion) increases.
-- This means that an increase in intensity is over-represented by the increase in loudness.
+ This can create an illusion of 'more dynamic range'."

Mark

[Rivendell61]

CDs may measure very well, but low-level information tends to be missing, since the 16-bit (15 bits for signal plus one bit for checksum) spec doesn't allow for as much dynamic range as you might expect.

Islander,
There really is no 'low level' information missing (if it is in the original signal arriving from the microphones).

A correctly made 16 bit recording will encode and retrieve signal at -120-130dBFS....or lower.
There is no theoretical low limit--just the practical limits of microphones, mic pres, converter quality, rooms, etc.
And those very smallest digitally recorded signals will have.....no distortion.
(FYI: average low perceptible signal in good home listening environments is c.3dB SPL....maybe a bit sub zero in some cases.

If you are hearing otherwise do not blame the medium.

Mark

[LoudnClear]

Guys can we all agree on ONE thing ....................... WE ALL LIKE GOOD MUSIC No matter how we listen to it ? ........... EH !!!!!!!!

Yes, agreed.

[thebes]

Like most things in life music recording exists in shades of gray. Should, for example, Burnett's new format be universally adopted, it would hardly guarantee that lazy musicians, and quick buck artists would would spend the time to take full advantage of the format.

Let's face it, there are crappy lps and there are sublime lps. There are junk cd's and there are outstanding cd's. There's bogus SACD and DVDA's and there are lousy SACD's and DVDA's.

There are "musicians" that could care less about how it sounds if it only sells. There are tons more that care about how it sounds. It's the difference between an honest craftsman and a "contractor".

Here's my very general rule on listening to music.

1. Music originally recorded for lps tends to sound better than the cd version.

2. Music recorded for cd's tends to sound better than the lp version unless it's a remaster specifically for lps.

3. MP3's suck bigtime. Never go less than lossless.

4. Crummy recordings abound.

5. Wonderfully recorded music abounds.

6. Formats have only a marginal impact on the quality of the musicians and the work done on the mastering.

7. Surprisingly it's possible to produce a very good recording using current technology than it was years ago. In other words, it takes less work today to get a technically good sounding disc.

On another note, I was intrigued by HIFi Jim's comments disparaging the DVd player over a dedicated cd player. So any good suggestions for a stand-alone cd player. $9.99 or less of course.

[Hifi jim]

To answer Thebes proposal; Lets see $9.99 or less for a stand alone CD player...nope. How about a first gen Sony Playstation? Probably better than most sub $500 DVD players. I'm just not fond of using a DVD drive to spin CDs. Every DVD player, or universal (with exception to the Meridian 568.2) that I've tried has been just dreadful at CD playback. Kudos to Rega for developing their own transport for the Apollo and Saturn, rather than using "what's available". I agree with Thebes, in that there are good and bad recordings in just about every format. We've all been pleasantly surprised by albums or cds we've purchased, and we've all been ready to set fire to some as well.

[Mallette]

Well, a 10.00 cd transport stuck in a throw away old computer can quite readily extract CD's to HDD. Once done, there are quite a few 100.00 sound cards that can play back the extracted data every bit as well as all but a rarefied few of cd players. And once you get to about 300 or above for the sound card, I personally do not think there are stand alone players at any price that sound significantly better.

And all of the above is still a bit pricier thant the OPPO's, which play DVD's and compete (for my ears) to any player at any price.

Of course, I may be quite deaf.

Dave

[Hifi jim]

That is very interesting Mallete. On a side note, I have A/B'd my iTunes playing Apples Lossless vs. many CD players and sometimes prefer it, sometimes not. Often the recording is the factor here. However, the iTunes vs. a DVD player is usually no contest. The Oppo I tried did little to impress me as far as CD playback is concerned. A player like a Rega Planet 2000 can be had for around $400, and I've heard little that will come close for under a $1000. Of course the Rega has got that great PRaT that really makes discs sing and a nice analog presentation, but some find the highs lacking and it is not the last word in transparency... for that you need the Apollo. YMMV

[Mallette]

Hearing is a funny thing and I will NEVER challenge what another hears. That way lieth insanity.

Check the thread from not too far back "OPPOulence." Those finding various OPPO models equal to or better than dedicated players were in the vast majority, including some highly respected ears around here.

I had a blind A/B at my home with a Rega against PC sound card (Card Deluxe) with a number of highly educated (and skeptical) ears a couple of years back and it was a dead heat.

While my post totals are not in the stratosphere, I've been on this forum for a long time and I've learned that experience and listener prejudices play a big factor in what people hear. That does not mean what they hear is bogus...it is what it is.

About all we all agree on is that world peace is good, and I've my doubts about a few on that one. [6]

Dave

PS - There is no scientific reason why a player capable of playing DVD's should sound better or worse than a given CD player on audio. The act of reading the data is just that: It is either read correctly or it is garbage. After that it is the DAC and circuits that handle the rest, and there is nothing specific to DVD audio that would dictate any specific treatment for it. In the case of the OPPO, the OPPO design team has spent a lot of care and attention to get the audio circuits right.

[Hifi jim]

Hearing is a funny thing and I will NEVER challenge what another hears.  That way lieth insanity. 

Check the thread from not too far back "OPPOulence."  Those finding various OPPO models equal to or better than dedicated players were in the vast majority, including some highly respected ears around here.

I had a blind A/B at my home with a Rega against PC sound card (Card Deluxe) with a number of highly educated (and skeptical) ears a couple of years back and it was a dead heat.

While my post totals are not in the stratosphere, I've been on this forum for a long time and I've learned that experience and listener prejudices play a big factor in what people hear.  That does not mean what they hear is bogus...it is what it is. 

About all we all agree on is that world peace is good, and I've my doubts about a few on that one. 

Dave

PS - There is no scientific reason why a player capable of playing DVD's should sound better or worse than a given CD player on audio.  The act of reading the data is just that:  It is either read correctly or it is garbage.  After that it is the DAC and circuits that handle the rest, and there is nothing specific to DVD audio that would dictate any specific treatment for it.  In the case of the OPPO, the OPPO design team has spent a lot of care and attention to get the audio circuits right.

I have no doubt what you or others have heard in that system, in that room and with THOSE ears. System synergy can ignite a whole other topic. As can room acoustics. And the way humans hear is still under scientific study. Those three variables will have a larger effect on sound than the player itself. While my posts are limited here, I can assure you that I've spent one too many years chasing the HiFi dream and have had my share of comparisons in my system and others. The Oppo I tried failed (again for me and in my system) vs. the Rega. I like to think I am pretty unbiased against or for any brand, and physical appearance, ergonomics, etc. are not a consideration for me in the ultimate goal of good sound. While I have no experience with PC cards, as a Mac owner I use iTunes and have used various DAC's for comparison to CD's. A CD player such as the Rega, Meridian or Naim seem to play CD's in a way that escapes most other players. Many people simply do not get PRaT and think it a farce. Again, we go back to how humans hear and process that information. For me PRaT is as obvious as the pink elephant sitting next to you, and a major part of the difference I hear between sources. As far as there being no scientific reason for a dedicated CD player to sound better than a DVD player, I offer you this: CD players do not have any video circuitry that adds noise to any audio product. Think about companies like Bryston who seperate their video switchers from their preamps to prevent this. Less is almost always more in the world of audio. An inexpensive universal player is the very definition of compromise. More expensive universal players do not cut costs on design, shielding and parts quality, but it is still a compromise. A Meridian DVD player does not sound as good as a Meridian CD player for these very reasons. As far as "It is either read correctly or it is garbage", one would think that in theory but audio is a tricky thing. Many years ago I was insistent that all digital cables must sound the same if they are built correctly and are 75 ohm standard, that is until I changed out my blue Meridian coax for a Monster, and the Monster for a D-60 and heard the difference. I remember reading an interesting article about the time the Apollo was being designed explaining Rega's reasoning for designing their own CD transport, I doubt such a costly undertaking would have taken place if a readily available DVD transport offered no difference. Unfortunately I forget the specifics of the article, but I remember it had to do with the DVD drive spinning faster than necessary (fast enough to read a DVD) to read CDs and thus where some problems lay. Many an engineer has been stumped why something that would seem irrelevant would change the end result,,,but there you have it. If the Oppo sounds best for you and in your system...then that is all that matters.