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Big Towers vs. Smaller Towers


Seb

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Hey guys!

I'm currently in the process of choosing speakers and possibly a receiver/amplification for my system.

Now I've read a lot of threads which advocate setting the main speakers to small, however big they may be, and letting the sub handle all the relatively low bass (say 80Hz and under). I've also read a lot of threads concerning the ol' bookshelf/small towers vs. big towers debate, with one side saying big towers are useless in that config because their main benefit is better/more bass, and thus you could get more for your money by spending it on smaller speakers with better tonal accuracy, balance, soundstage and whatnot. Those threads never really came to a definite conclusion, however.

I was originally going for the RF-7, because I knew that if I didn't get the best, I'd always have that little nagging voice in my head. Plus, the difference in price is not something lethal for my wallet.

BUT, in light of the discussions I mentioned above, wouldn't it be best to go with, say, the RF-5, or even the RF-3II, compound the savings by going with the matching and less expensive RC-3, and spend the extra money on better amplification or savings for future upgrades or DVDs?

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'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

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How about 3 RC7s up front, and 2 RS7s in the rear. Then get yourself a great sub. That's what I would do if I was starting over and had the cash.

T-man

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Seb,

"...you could get more for your money by spending it on smaller speakers with better tonal accuracy, balance, soundstage and whatnot."

You're not really buying this line are you? I don't think there are many things that smaller speakers do better than largers peakers other than fit on a bookself, or take up a smaller footprint, or maybe please the wife...Oh and they do generally cost less. NO FLAMES PLEASE ...I AM GENERALISING

There are far more aspects to consider. Aside from obviously listening to the speakers in questions, I like looking at crossover frequencies between tweeters, Mids (not an issue w/ Refs.), and woofers. Hearing the human voice in a horn (at least primarily) not a woofer or changing back-n-forth between the two can be pretty important in both music and HT.

Are these speakers to be used primarily for HT or will they be used for music alot as well?

My 2 cents (that's U.S. dollars to you SebSmile.gif )

You would have a kick @ss system w/ either of your choices!

I'd go w/3's for primarily HT (just Canadian Dollars and sense) and 7's for mostly music (size does matter!)

Buy hey...that's just mecwm5.gif

Good Luck

Dave

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seb, get a receiver w/ the adjustable down from 80hz on the high/low pass crossover, such as the denon 4802.

then you can have big tower speaks & a good sub.

but if the $ are too much, i agree. because of that &^^#% fixed crossover in most receivers you may as well

get thx size speakers. unless you want to have big front towers like the rf-7 & those only for 2 channel. if you bring the sub in at up to 80hz you get a crappy, muddy sound in most cases.

or you can go the wiring sub speaker level route, but i just don't think u get the same good dynamics on HT that way.

it's a dilemma, trilemma... w/ that fixed 80hz cross. getting one adjustable down pretty much solves that problem. weren't you gettin that 4802?

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I recently posed the question to BobG if it was a worthwhile upgrade from my two RC7's to a set of RF7's.

I originally went for the RC7's because I am for the most part of the smaller box and sub school of thought.

However, Bob indicated to me that 1) the RF7's are considerably more dynamic than the RC7's, and 2) that the RF7's are actually easier to integrate with a sub.

When I auditioned the RF7's earlier this week, I was surprised by the absence of boominess I usually hear in tower designs. It's this 'fat', 'woody' sound that has always driven me to monitors. I didn't notice it with the RF7's.

Something else to consider is that with a sensitivity of 102dbw - the RF7's can be driven with much less amplifier than the RF3 II's, RF5's, or the RC7's.

Finally - The driver in the RF7 is immensely superior to the driver in the RF3 II and RF5 - and also has the larger horn.

This might be a case where extra money might be best spent on speakers.

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deanG

This message has been edited by deang on 01-24-2002 at 11:18 PM

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"However, Bob indicated to me that 1) the RF7's are considerably more dynamic than the RC7's, and 2) that the RF7's are actually easier to integrate with a sub."

Very true

The RF-7's are very easy on most good subs,easy to integrate since you can cut the sub low,very low.

My Sunfire subs are cut a 35Hz right now.Very nice,no peaky garbage,just full range sound.

TheEAR(s) Now theears

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the system is approx. 80% HT 20% music, but that might well change with the advent of the new speakers!

well, I think I kind of got my answer in what deang said: "The driver in the RF7 is immensely superior to the driver in the RF3 II and RF5 - and also has the larger horn."

I think I'll bite the bullet and go with the monsters. Of course, I still have some auditioning to do, but it's hard to make up your mind in an environment other than your home's... plus, the system will change from a small room to a bigger room very soon!

I will not be able to get a 4802 for now. Was probably going for the 3802 with maybe a POA5200 2-channel amp for the fronts. the RC-7 will then be in need of some better amplification, but I figure with the added headroom given to the 3802 by liberating it from it's left/right duties, that should not be too much of a problem, should it?

That's another thing I was wondering about... Is the amp section in the 4802 approx. equal to the POA5200? because if it is, then I might think of waiting and going for the 4802...

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Good decision, Seb. Your speakers are the one place where the dollars spent delivers the most benefits. Those RF-7s are highly sensitive - they will work fine with a more modest HT receiver until you can get what you really want. You just avoided making the biggest mistake most people make when buying audio - they skimp on the speaker budget.

The beauty of your choice of the RF-7 lies in the fact that you'll have a speaker good enough to justify spending more money on better quality amps/preamps/source units down the line. The upgrade bug may become tough to fight off, but the sonic benefits will be heard. I'm of the belief that just because you are mainly using your system for HT versus audio, that is no reason not to buy the RF-7. They are more desirable in either case.

I think you will like them. I like them too, but I have the Heritage bug (Cornwall II's). I was impressed with the RF-7 demos though. Good luck with the demos.

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First we Rock, then we Roll!

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I feel it's a waste using a receiver stricly as a pre/pro, when the power it develops is VERY sufficient for the less-critical (IMO) rear channels.

I'll gladly get separate amplification for the fronts, but not the rears, unless I have a lot of money to blow. At the most, and to avoid interference between high and low level operations in the receiver, I could use an old Prologic or other receiver as an amp to drive the rears.

This is just further illustration of my philosophy that you do need surrounds of reasonable quality, but they don't need to reproduce the soud as faithfully as the front soundstage does, for two reasons:

1-the limited scope of the sounds coming from the rear (ambience, which even Bose can do, and quick and far-between effects sounds)

2-the fact that our ears are angled to the front. our hearing is relatively poor to detect subtle differences such things as tonal accuracy, soundstage, etc... (actually most people don't notice such differences in the front, i.e. mr. Joe six-pack). so don't spend too much money on the rear, I say, it'd be better spent on upgrading the fronts with better speakers, amplification, video, etc...

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'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

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thanks for your response, dndphishin!

the main reason whay I was after the best I could get is to avoid telling myself later on "what if I had gone with those speakers, whta would THIS sound like?"

that way, i know I have zee best I can afford, the top-of-the-line...

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

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Kind of From the End of American Beauty -

You probably don't know what I'm talking about,

but if you get big ole front speakers and a receiver w/

a fixed 80hz crossover, you will. Smile.gif

iow, it'll most always sound best overall setting them to small w/ the sub connected to sub preout & sub crossover off or all the way up (don't cut LFE channel that way). avoid that big ole standin wave(s) that way.

the rf-7 are great. but to use them w/ a sub to their full potential, u need to drop that high pass cross down to 40-50hz.

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boa,

didn't quite get the reference to American Beauty, although RF-7s are definitely some good-looking American beasts...

I was planning on setting the speakers to large, then running the low-level signal through my sub and crossing over at 50Hz or thereabouts then sending the filtered signal to a POA-5200, simply because my receiver does not have a flexible xover frequency. but that will change once I get a better receiver, maybe the 4802...

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

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yea seb the rf-7 are beauties in sound & appearance. that's all i'm gettin at since original ? was about that ole large vs small issue. with the 4802 you have that covered much better.

that fixed cross in the dsp is i think the biggest design problem out there when you have big towers and use the sub preout for the best sound (iow i recommend that over the sub speaker level hookup when whether using an adjustable cross in the dsp or not, for the reasons above).

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My Home Systems Page

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forrest, I have considered legends for the longest time, but they are too harsh for me. the ref line is imo smoother (for horns anyways) and more refined. they may lack a LITTLE bit of the legend's punch, but I don't think i'd really miss any punch with speakers like the RF-7. forget about Legends for me.

boa, i agree adjustable crossovers should be STANDARD on EVERY receiver out there, because it doesn't seem to me like the most expensive option, yet it offers so many more configuration options and can work with virtually any system. I would have thought that manufacturers had seen the potential there, but I guess they're expecting everyone to adhere to the THX standard...

now I have a question, I don't know if anyone will be able to help me: in the back of my sub, i have low-level inputs AND outputs, the outputs being label "high pass outputs". now obviously this means that the sub's xover acts on those low-level inputs-ouputs. I was wondering, is there any drawback to using this as opposed to using the speaker-level filter (my guess is it would be much better to use the low-level option), or even a receiver's xover?

at least, it seems to me like it would be a very good option, perhaps not as clean as using the receiver's xover, but at least much better than using a filter on the speaker-level signal, right? I'd like somebody to confirm this.

------------------

'cuz not a lot of people have ever said

"Pump up the treble!"

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seb, are u talkin of runing rca connects from your front preouts to the line level inputs of the sub. then running the line outs from sub to power amp just for the front 2 channels?

if you're talkin that pw2200, it has a line level high pass rolloff - 3rd-order 18 dB/octave at 80 Hz.

you could always wire the sub speaker level parallel w/

the rf-7 off the power amp like you know, but i've tried that & still really prefer the above w/ that adjustable high & low cross in the dsp & turnin off the low pass on the sub.

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My Home Systems Page

This message has been edited by boa12 on 01-25-2002 at 06:17 PM

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