Advice with denied UPS claim?

[Kudret]

I sold my pCATs about 6 weeks ago and shipped them with UPS. They were shipped in original packaging with $2400 insurance.

UPS managed to damage the transformer cage on both units. The insurance claim was denied claiming "insufficient packaging".

I am wondering if anyone has any experince in dealing with UPS and what would be the next step to recover the cost of damage (which I learned would be $430 to replace both transformer cages).

Kudret

[BEC]

I ship around 700 to 1000 packages a year by UPS. Usually have a couple of damaged packages per year. UPS almost always denies the claim when I first submit it. So far, they have always paid when I challenged the denial. Another strange thing is that they have always picked up the item and paid the full value that I could prove (replacement value) even if I just claimed for a value to repair that was much smaller. Once I offered to accept just $100 if I could keep the damaged item but they denied that and paid the full value of $600.

Bob

[Daddy Dee]

Kudret,

Good luck with your appeal. Hope you will post the results. Perseverance with UPS usually pays off.

[SteelerFan]

I agree, their first reaction is to deny. I imagine that tactic works for them more than it should. Don't give up.

[Coytee]

I sold my pCATs about 6 weeks ago

1. Congrats (but sucks on the damage)

2. Does this infer that you're going to be looking at something large & ugly and up to now, non-existent in Canada?

[bhendrix]

That's too bad, Kudret. Be persistent, but expect disappointment with UPS.

I have had multiple damaged products where "insufficient packaging" was their excuse. Despite my persistence and the persistence of the sellers, no cigars.

On one occasion, a forum member shipped KP-320's to me from Phoenix. The package was dropped so hard that it dislodged to woofer magnet, but did not damage the 3/4" plywood "crate" (speaker cabinet) that the woofer was shipped in. UPS denied . . . .and continues to deny, despite Klipsch's assessment that the cabinet was dropped.

I no longer us UPS. I have shipped numerous items by FEDEX Ground with no damage . . . .yet. Klipsch also uses FEDEX Ground.

I WILL NEVER, NEVER, NEVER SHIP BY UPS AGAIN. [8o|]

[Budman]

my shipper uses ups and they denied my claim and my shipper fought tooth and nail until they paid it. i have done with what bill said above. i will never never never ship by ups again. good luck on your claim

[Kudret]

Thank you for the suggestion Bob. I didn't know that they always deny the first claim. Also, thanks to everyone else for sharing their experiences and offering their support.

Mark Deneen was very helpful in providing an invoice for the damages and sending me a letter saying that there is no fault in packaging the amps. I really appreciate his help. I mailed his letter along with my appeal to UPS. We'll see what happens.

Kudret

[Kudret]

2. Does this infer that you're going to be looking at something large & ugly and up to now, non-existent in Canada.

I had actually placed an order with walnut veneer. Then I learned that veneering was no longer done and I had cancelled my order to think about what to do next. Then I went on a long vacation and just come back. So, the short answer is, not yet.[]

Kudret

[seti]

2. Does this infer that you're going to be looking at something large & ugly and up to now, non-existent in Canada.

I had actually placed an order with walnut veneer. Then I learned that veneering was no longer done and I had cancelled my order to think about what to do next. Then I went on a long vacation and just come back. So, the short answer is, not yet.

Kudret

That is a major bummer. Have you considered finding a veneer artist locally?

[HarryO]

I ship around 700 to 1000 packages a year by UPS. Usually have a couple of damaged packages per year. UPS almost always denies the claim when I first submit it. So far, they have always paid when I challenged the denial. Another strange thing is that they have always picked up the item and paid the full value that I could prove (replacement value) even if I just claimed for a value to repair that was much smaller. Once I offered to accept just $100 if I could keep the damaged item but they denied that and paid the full value of $600.

Bob

This is normal with UPS. They deny all claims in the hope you won't follow up with your claim.

Lousy way to run business but they're getting away with it somehow.

I've had too many of these transactions with UPS and only use them when I have to.

Now you know why the "Big Brown Truck" is brown. You're left holding the s... stick with UPS.

Harry

[Guest srobak]

This is normal with UPS. They deny all claims in the hope you won't follow up with your claim.

Lousy way to run business but they're getting away with it somehow.

This is how most insurance companies do business - including medical and auto. They actually save a truckload of money by doing that, because it is staggering the number of people who do not followup.

[LarryC]

Slight variation on the topic -- if you use a UPS store, they're apparently required to put THEIR return address on the shipping label instead of the customer's. I suppose there are ways to get around it, but was astonished to be asked by a recipient if he was supposed to send it back to the UPS store instead of to my home.

[djk]

Payments to claimants are gratuitous, they don't have to make them. On the other hand, you don't have to accept them either.

Call UPS and ask for the name and address to have served, they usually change their tune (they don't like to have a judge tell them what to do).

Same thing for simple auto insurance claims.

[BadDad]

It was suggested to me to use FedEx for easier claim payments.( Thanks HarryO). Recently I shipped a Grundig Majestic Radio that was sent without my best packing effort. I could have done better and felt a little rushed. But I used peanuts and assorted styrofoam. to ship and it was damaged. Looked like it was dropped on the corner and shattered. I should stick to shipping tubes. The buyer was very upset and I immediatly issueded a refund with shipping.included. Called fedex and expected nproblems. Easy process, only spent 5 minutes on the phone. Within a week I got a check for merchandise and shipping. Small claim but didn't have to send pictures , or claim form, or jump through hoops. FedEx earned a customer that day. BadDad

[Kudret]

Mark Deneen was very helpful in providing an invoice for the damages and sending me a letter saying that there is no fault in packaging the amps. I really appreciate his help. I mailed his letter along with my appeal to UPS. We'll see what happens.

Kudret

Unfortunately UPS denied the claim again. I found a message on my answering machine saying that there is no damage
to the boxes and internal cushioning and hence they are denying the
claim. I called UPS to speak with someone from the claims department but the CSR refused to connect me. After putting me on hold, she said they made their decision
and it was final.

They never acknowledged receiving my registered mail
with Mark's letter and invoice in it where I was asking them to pay only for the repairs and not the full amount. I wonder if it would make any difference.

Any other suggestions?

Needless to say, I will avoid UPS like a plauge from now on.

Kudret

[Guest srobak]

Call their CS again, ask them for the name of the company's legal representation so you can direct your attorney to contact them.

That ought to get you on the phone with a supervisor.

[BEC]

Mark Deneen was very helpful in providing an invoice for the damages and sending me a letter saying that there is no fault in packaging the amps. I really appreciate his help. I mailed his letter along with my appeal to UPS. We'll see what happens.

Kudret

Unfortunately UPS denied the claim again. I found a message on my answering machine saying that there is no damage
to the boxes and internal cushioning and hence they are denying the
claim. I called UPS to speak with someone from the claims department but the CSR refused to connect me. After putting me on hold, she said they made their decision
and it was final.

They never acknowledged receiving my registered mail
with Mark's letter and invoice in it where I was asking them to pay only for the repairs and not the full amount. I wonder if it would make any difference.

Any other suggestions?

Needless to say, I will avoid UPS like a plauge from now on.

Kudret

I am not sure where you go from there. I have never yet been in the position of having a claim denied twice. Are you actually talking to UPS or to their contractor they use for claims? Once when their contractor had denied a claim, my call to UPS Customer Service resulted in immediate reversal of that decision right there while we were on the phone.

Bob

[Audible Nectar]

I'm here to tell you that FedUp isn't any better.

Had a single VRD a couple years ago that needed a minor service (bias pots detached from the underside of the metal plate - a slight change in the underfinish of the metal plates around the time that amp was built caused the adhesive to not stick very well). It seemed a relatively simple problem - we almost was going to fix it ourselves, but the position of one pot under the chassis had us collectively thinking it best that Craig do the replacement (plus Craig preferred to see it as to prevent the issue on future builds). So we shipped it to Craig in original packing, Craig does the work, then Craig shipped it back to us.

The box appeared PRISTINE. But some gorilla working for FedUp had apparently dropped the box so hard that it broke all of the support structure out from within the wood casing of the amp. It was a feat of physics that they could even do that to an amp that was packed in original shipping material FROM THE MANUFACTURER, on a unit built like VRDs are. It really was hard to believe it possible.

Of course, FedUp denied the claim (no box damage was one reason given). After a while of Craig wrangling with FedUp they paid him $400ish on a $1300 amp. The amp was 2 months old, at most. And I'll repeat, he was the MANUFACTURER. If they'll do a manufacturer with a business account that way, they'll do ANYBODY that way. FedUp did stipulate that they would cover BRAND NEW goods shipped out 100%, but not 100% coverage for goods used in any fashion. The value you claim when shipping an item doesn't really mean much.

Craig did repair the amp (and looked really good as well - he did a great job) - so that got solved, but not without the usual expected stress - and a lesson learned.

Since then, I've been extremely careful about how I ship, service, or deliver my gear. Granted, occurrences are rare (I don't think Craig has had any other VRDs damaged, for example), but it CAN happen, even in the best of circumstances. Since this happened, I now deliver gear needing service PERSONALLY - and that means 450 miles to Craig's if I need to do it. I trust ME more than I trust the shipping gorillas. One goes to these extremes when one cannot afford the loss (like replacing a consecutively numbered pair of MC-30s, for example). That's not really possible, so I'll deliver them myself.

Granted, this scenario and subsequent remedy doesn't help much for one shipping internationally, or long distances. I do think often about those who buy and sell over the web and ship goods via the couriers. Both parties get much exposure to risk, and both can get screwed if damage occurs.

If Kudret was a US resident selling to a US buyer, I would suggest going to small claims court. Since he is not (Canada), I'm not sure what his options are.

I guess one good bit of news is that these amps are repairable. That helps.

[TNRabbit]

My only success story with UPS was I let THEM do their lame-@$$ packing job on a Sunfire amp, which consisted of bubble wrapping the amp & putting it in a single box. WHEN it was damaged, it was due to a fork lift being run through the side of the amp (still worked!!). They paid to ship the amp to Sunfire, all the repairs, and return shipping to the buyer! They couldn't say it was insufficient packaging because THEY DID IT, even though it was OBVIOUSLY lame as hell....