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Guest srobak

Mark surely you can't feel persecuted...here?

I hope not... it is just discussion and opinions. Nothing heated or hateful.

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Guest srobak

Yes, oldtimer - that is exactly what I am saying, and by God - it will NOT happen again.

That event is the core reason I became a police officer, and it is the core reason why I believe people have the right to protect themselves, their loved ones, and those in their immediate vicinity from danger and harm.

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Robocop said : "Than consider yourself concerned. I have been carrying for over 15 years, and was a police officer for over 5." [bs]

Then believe me when I say.... that I am even more concerned than I was before you told us that.

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Guest srobak

OB, What exactly are you claiming "BS" about?

The law-abiding folks who apply for permits and clear background checks and are issued licenses to carry are not the gun owners you need to worry about. These are the responsible ones. Try to remember that.

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Rushing a cockpit unarmed knowing you are going to a certain death....now thats a hero!

 

I agree. I would have been the first one in line to do the act. As I mentioned very early on - I am very bothered by the fact that out of 37 passengers on that bus, not a single one of them took it upon themselves to try to intervene. Even a small group could have easily overwhelmed this guy, and suffered only minor injuries at worst. I would have gone after him myself, and alone if necessary, and unarmed. I have done it before. No - I'm not a hero... I'm a citizen, and whenever possible, I will protect my fellow citizen from harm. This is each of your responsibilities as citizens of this country. 

If you can say that for certain then a truly applaud you......I can just speak for myself and I can say from my experiences that I just never know how I will react....more times than not I have sucked it up and done the right thing and helped my fellow human....it was more of an out of body experience, where it was like I was watching myself and going what the hell are you doing!!!! your going to get your self killed!!!

Then there was one time one the subway in NYC, I had the flu and wasn't feeling well...tiered from working a long shift, and a maniac wielding nothing but what seemed to be a used needle was acting like he would stab someone and I wasn't even sure for what? The train came into the station and I got to say I was spooked and almost knocked people over getting out of the train!!! I felt like crap two seconds after the train pulled away....how could I (6'3" 275 wrestler/mixed marshall arts/bouncer) get so spooked over 120# guy with nothing but a syringe??? I've stared down people with knives and guns before and didn't flinch!!!! It still pains me to this day.

So I won't judge those people on the bus....for all I know I may have knocked over an old woman to get out of there.....

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OB, What exactly are you claiming "BS" about?

The law-abiding folks who apply for permits and clear background checks and are issued licenses to carry are not the gun owners you need to worry about. These are the responsible ones. Try to remember that.

 

Hey SROBAKdont take what anyone says here personally. I dont know OldEnough at all, so I cant speak for him or against him. So my comments ARE NOT directed at him. However, there an active forum member that I will not call out; but, a year or so ago, we had a lengthy and spirited debate regarding the legalization of drugs and its impact on the individual/society. Now, Im a former addict (been clean since late 1980, so its out of my system). I surrendered too many years to that monster (drugs) but still have to deal with some permanent reminders of those dark years. I faired better than some of my running mates that ended up either in jail or dead. Anyway, I was speaking from direct and personal experience; but, since what I was saying to this forum member didnt fit into the mold presented by those on the Lefthe disregarded it completely and clung to his own philosophy about the way things really are and how best to solve the problembasically giving me the equivalent of the BS button. I couldnt get him to understand that his textbook arguments fresh out of the leftist operating manual about how things really are werent true and often flat out lies that are commonly passed through those circles. I LIVED that life, and for YEARS I only associated with those that also LIVED that life. I saw firsthand how things REALLY WERE (and they werent like he claimed)but, pay no attention to the man on the street, listen to those whose political motives trump the individual that they claim to represent. You see, Ive learned that many could care less about the individual, only giving them attention when it suits their argument; they are far more concerned with putting on this mystical badge of honor from being counter-culture, anti-establishment or whatever else is the banner of the month.

Sorry for rambling, all this trying to say that you cant convince some because their motive isnt to learn, to help, to solve, or even to understand those that dont share the same ideology.

So, dont get upset. And besides, Im also convinced that some dont even believe what they sayjust like to ruffle some feathers from time to time. Hang in there. If you lived itnobody can tell you that it isnt real.

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So I won't judge those people on the bus....for all I know I may have knocked over an old woman to get out of there.....


That's admirably frank and humble of you to say so. Other than trained security officers, almost no-one can say how they'd react in a situation like the one on that bus.

Confronting a deranged 6 foot tall 200 pound killer wielding a large knife in a confined space would likely have produced several casualties and maybe a fatality or two in addition to the sleeping victim. The killer was sheltered by the seats and would have been hard to restrain even if he was unarmed, not brandishing a large bloody hunting knife.

Picture a typical group of bus passengers. Very few off-duty SWAT officers or Navy SEALs, right? For most average people who may have been on that bus and maybe close enough to try an attack on the killer, doing that would have been more stupid than heroic, since the chance of success would have been very small and might have prevented others from getting away safely.

Comparing that situation to what happened on Flight 93 would be misleading, since those unlucky passengers had time to plan their actions and realized that they had nothing to lose. I think I can honestly say that I would have also been in the charge on that plane. Wouldn't you have been, too?

The killer was taken into custody with no loss of life other than the unfortunate victim. A very sad day, but it could have been worse.
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The law-abiding folks who apply for permits and clear background checks and are issued licenses to carry are not the gun owners you need to worry about. These are the responsible ones. Try to remember that.


While it's true that proper background checks are done in some states, in others almost anyone with a driver's licence can get a gun or a quantity of guns, many of which cross the border to be sold to Canadian criminals.

As well, if many American households have guns, burglars don't need to get a permit or money to get a gun, they can just break into an average home and arm themselves with the household arsenal. And if it happens to be the home of a gun collector, jackpot! A single B&E can arm a whole gang. This has happened a number of times.
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Guest srobak

Confronting a deranged 6 foot tall 200 pound killer wielding a large knife in a confined space would likely have produced several casualties and maybe a fatality or two in addition to the sleeping victim. [...] For most average people who may have been on that bus and maybe close enough to try an attack on the killer, doing that would have been more stupid than heroic, since the chance of success would have been very small and might have prevented others from getting away safely.

I'd have to disagree with the confined space observation. Even if the aggressor is backed into a corner - confined space combat does yield many advantages to those trying overwhelm him.

As for the 2nd part I quoted above... two words: shoe bomber. And this wasn't a knife - this was a frackin BOMB. Much more confined space, MUCH higher probability for massive casualties - they overwhelmed him, and it never was discharged... and the group of non-swat, non-seal, non-cops kept him very painfully detained until the pilot grounded that plane. That's what I am talking about.

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True Liberty and Freedom is something that every one should know...But...along with that Liberty and Freedom has to be personal discipline, something that most individuals are unable to practice. So hence the more freedom and liberty that one is allowed the more undisciplined certain parts of the community become. you can set yourself apart from this group if you like but You allowed it to happen. This is not a political rant, this is a fact of life. If we were disciplined and responsible we would not need governing. Srobak you asked about the BS button...wasn't it quite obvious?

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I will type sllloooowwwwly so you can try to follow through the fog. There are less people driving horse and buggies arround than 100 years ago, but that doesn't mean that it is linked to loss of freedoms. There is absolutely no conection that can followed with an ioda of common sence that connects those two facts. I am not arguing the two facts, only saying that your reasoning in trying to corolate them is completely screwed up!!

Roger

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More Guns=More Deaths??

Another uneducated statement!! The second ammendmant is to protect the citizen against an oppressive government!! I guess less guns depends on who has those guns now doesn't it?? Go ask the Sadam era "marsh arabs", and Shites, Hitler era Jews, Catholics, Gays, or countless other minorities in their own countries arround the world. Think it can't happen here?? Tell it to the Asians put in detainee camps in WWII.


So should those American citizens of Asian descent have armed themselves and used their rifles and pistol to take on the US Armed Forces in order to avoid being rounded up and put in detainee camps? Wouldn't that have been very disloyal, fighting against your own country's forces in a time of war, in effect opening up a home front? Their chances of success would have been pretty slim, too.

Those citizens of Asian descent were loyal to America and showed it by obeying the laws of the land, cruel and unnecessary as they were in that case.

I would not of had a problem if Asian Americans had tried to defend themselves against the government as their constitutional rights were violated by a government overstepping it's bondries and that is exactly what the second amendment was written for, but that was not the point I made, nor was I trying to make, so you go reread it and try to think real hard about what I was really trying to say, because if youe cerebellum isn't large enough to grasp it, then I won't waste the time trying to bring you up to speed.

Roger

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Americans have become the most fearful population on the planet. They are scared silly of the most absurd risks you can calculate. They are psychologically and collectively cowering in fear. Guns is an outlet for that fear which falsely makes one feel more safe. The flames of this fear are being fanned daily, hourly, almost constantly.

To alleviate the uncontrollable shaking fear, they buy more guns, buy larger SUVs, buy houses in gated communities, agree to any suggested search and seisure laws that will "reduce risks". They start wars with imagined enemies holding imagined weapons pointed at imagined targets. They acquiesce to every control mechanism proposed by a Father figure government, from strip searches at the airport to eavesdropping to 24 hour camera surveillance.. They demand absurd physical constraints such as thousand mile border "fences" when no such thing is even possible. They easily relinquish rights to privacy in exchange for more security. They scapegoat entire races or ethnicities as enemies. They are obsessed with security and can't shake the grip of mortal fear.

This makes them sheep. Easy to lead, easy to steer, easy to manipulate. They confuse having a gun with being courageous. No, being courageous is being able to accept life IN liberty. Liberty grants no concessions to security. Liberty does not submit to phony authorities, illegal searches, surveillance systems, monitoring, wiretapping, eavesdropping, torture, star chambers, illegal detentions, phony threats, absurd risks, and fearmongering. Get all the guns you want - - it ain't gonna add one iota to your courage to live free. We've already proven that, haven't we?

You know marijuana has a tendancy to make you paraniod, you should lay off it a bit.

That doesn't even make sense. I am not the one who needs a gun to face life. It looks good though since you worked 'marijuana' into it, and yet it shows you didn't understand the post.

No, you don't need a gun to deal with life, only a joint mon!!!

Roger

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More guns = more deaths.

What other country is as heavily armed on a per capita basis as the US? Afghanistan? Iraq? Israel? Well, the Israelis have a point, what with rockets flying over their borders every day and suicide bombers walking their streets, as well as being surrounded by larger countries who've sworn to wipe them off the map. Those conditions don't apply in the US, do they?

America has lots of gun factories making thousands of weapons every day. There are jobs to be protected. We'd better have a culture that values gun ownership or we'll lose money and jobs.

However, all those skilled workers could be making medical equipment or building supplies, or something else that saves or improves lives, instead of adding to the oversupply of handheld killing machines.

Jeff, try visiting another country, one where none of the people around you are carrying pistols, and see if you feel less safe.

More Guns=More Deaths??

Another uneducated statement!! The second ammendmant is to protect the citizen against an oppressive government!! I guess less guns depends on who has those guns now doesn't it?? Go ask the Sadam era "marsh arabs", and Shites, Hitler era Jews, Catholics, Gays, or countless other minorities in their own countries arround the world. Think it can't happen here?? Tell it to the Asians put in detainee camps in WWII.

Roger

All the guns in your closet will be of no use if you get mistakenly swept up as a security threat and whisked off to be tortured with no right of habeas corpus. Imagine that - -you may never see your family again, and you will have absolutely no due process - no day in court. Sound good to you? Your guns and your Second Ammendment are no defense against illegal search and seizure, are they? Remind me again how your guns protect your privacy?

See, why you little boys were distracted playing cops and robbers with your guns, that Constitution you are always yakking about got gutted like a stinkfish. Wake up and smell the coffee. Maybe if the NRA actually had an intelligence in the movement, they might have applied it to preventing that.

I am abivalent about guns because they simply don't mean anything of importance anymore. Wrong focus - big waste of time. Since I am not paranoid, and I don't live in quaking fear of every moving leaf, I don't need a gun for self defence. Sorry, but you don't get to bring guns into a courtroom to defend yourself - - that happens with LAWS and the Constitution - - you know, that document that used to protect your right to due process.

The gun issue would be about 99 on my list of 100 important things to worry about. You live in some fantasy that you are going to fend off the Feds when they come for you? Ever hear of Ruby Ridge? Waco? The SLA? Well, good luck with all that. But while you are fantasizing with your big blue barrel in your hand, the real game is being stolen out from under your very noses. You think you are defending liberty? That's a laugh - you let that slip out of your hand already. While you are sitting there polishing your stock, people with MINDS are trying hard to win back the liberty that has been tragically lost - probably forever. And all the guns in the country aren't going to get that back.

mdeneen,

Sounds great, but:

A) What exactly are you doing to try to return or liberties to where they were besides sitting arround with a bong??

B) How come you blow smoke up my A-S, with questions, but don't try to address any of the facts I have stated.

C) I don't know what you do for a living, but if they remove guns from public possesion (just like they did in Nazi Germany by the way), who will have anything to say about anything if those in power decide to do totally away with the constitution, or declair marshal law. As you have already stated, they have already trampled all over the constitution in the past. (It shouldn't be much of a stretch for your imagination if you are going to quote Ruby Ridge, or Waco to me.

Roger

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