Colter's Shop of Klipsch

[colterphoto1]

Thanks Chris, another great thing about this Forum is that we have experts in every imaginable field here!

I just got off the phone with 'The Radiant Floor Company' in Vermont and they are putting together a quote for a simple system for me.

http://www.radiantcompany.com/details/grade.shtml

All I have to do from my current plans is increase the floor insulation from just around the perimenter and 2' in to insulating most of the floor slab. Tamp the gravel down, install wire mesh, then tie off the PEX to the mesh. According to the link there's a pressurization test and temporary manifold installed, but the final hookup to a hot water heater should be not too difficult. The only tricky thing might be that I don't have water run to the building (yet), so would have to manually top off the system but the hose spigot isn't far away. There shouldn't be any (or very little) loss I should think.

[Cal Blacksmith]

Congrats on the new project. It is probably a bit late in the game but I wold go with a steel building. The outside can be made to look like anything and the steel frame will never need to be treated for termites! If I were to build a house from scratch, I sure would do it with steel. My shop is made that way and it is fantastic. There are steel buildings that are designed as homes, they look like stick built homes but don't need any load bearing walls, so the interior walls are totally free to be anywhere you want them.

Good luck in this project, it will be nice when you are done!!

[customsteve01]

Michael,

Take a look at these tools that help in aligning the hardiplank while you are installing it. I have been looking at putting Hardiplank on the gables of the barn and a Hardiplank Rep. told me to use these.

http://www.heartyhangers.com/product/index.html

Steve

[chrisinvermont]

I have spoken with the Radiant Floor Company a couple of times at trade shows. They are very nice and know their stuff. A colleague of mine is doing his house (retrofit) by himself with their product and he is please so far. I thought about doing it myself but one of the HVAC guys I know needed a house designed. We traded a house design and drawings for retrofit radiant in my house. Best heat ever!

Make sure you get the insulation in between the edge of the slab and the frost walls. That is a giant area for heat loss if the heated slab directly contacts the unheated frost wall.

Chris

[colterphoto1]

Thanks for the input guys. I don't know how to nail to steel, so prefer a more traditional building. No termite issue here.

[Tom Adams]

Michael -

I don't know if I completely understand the orientation/placement of your garage doors, so forgive me if this suggestion isn't possible.

Having owned a boat or two in my life, the one thing I've said I would do if I could build the garage of my dreams is to have a garage door on opposite ends of the building so that I didn't have to back the boat into the garage. Instead, I could just drive it in and pull it out the other side.

And I have an electrical suggestion that actually eminates from a suggestion my wife had about my workshop/garage. When I was laying out where to place my electrical boxes, she suggested I place a few outlets up near the ceiling. When I asked why, she said, "Well, that way when I want to buy you some of those cool neon garage or bar signs, you'll have a convenient place to plug them in." Gotta love a woman who understands what a garage means to a man. LOL.........

100amps??? You're kidding right?? Dude - I've got a 200amp service going to mine. Think about it. A typical 220v air compressor is gonna draw 40 amps! Well......there's more to the story for me. I plan on using the extra service capacity for a pool/patio project and a room addition. Sadly, the breaker box on our home is max'd out so I was forced to have a separate feed/meter on my workshop.

Please keep us updated.

Tom

[colterphoto1]

I understand what you mean about the 'drive thru' capability, alas not a possibility with my layout on the lot. I had that in a quonset hut equipment shed back on the farm and it was a beautiful thing. I've gotten used to backing the boat up this snake-like driveway (all two times it goes out per season, sigh).

I like the idea of the higher duplex outlets. I'm thinking of either one in floor for the table saw rig, possibly a ceiling pulldown (the recoil type) for portable tools, keeping all the main shop duplex at least 2' above floor level to eliminate stooping. I do have 3 neon signs and mounting them high on the walls would be cool.

Looking into the lighting situation. I have a lot of track and large cans from a furniture shop my family used to own, might use them for perimeter lights for general purpose (meeting, rehersal etc), but put in T8 FL lights for the majority of shop lighting. With 10 foot ceilings I think thats the most energy efficient way to go. Checking around for websites that give the best positioning. I guess you'd want them somewhat near walls so that you'd have overhead lighting (and at slight angles) for operating tools, close up for workbench areas, also a mix of light types for checking grain patterns and color in wood. There will be a single OH door on the shop end so I'll have natural light available also.

I don't know that I'll use air tools, if so probably sparingly. I'll have to look and see what we put in the house. I had it 'rewired' when I moved in- it was all fuse boxes stacked on top of one another. I wonder how much capacity we put in?

[Tom Adams]

Funny you should mention recessed lights. I was really struggling with my lighting plan and one day the wife & I were in Lowes looking at flourescent light fixtures and she asked what about using recessed lights. I explained that I wanted broad even coverage lighting and that even if I could achieve it with cans, it would cost too much. She then points out (man....I hate when this happens) a stack of boxes that contained 6 recessed light fixtures (contractors pack) each and says, "These are on sale for $12.95 for 6 and that one T8 fixture your looking at is $60. Am I missing some thing??"

So now I have twelve 6" recessed cans in my workshop and the total cost including trim rings & bulbs was less than $70. I'm sure that flourescents would've been better, but I've decided to use dedicated lighting in those areas where I need serious illumination. And something else I see as a benefit to the recessed lights - I never have to worry about swinging around a long piece of wood or a ladder and whacking a T8 bulb! Done that before. YIKES!!

Oh - and don't forget the ceiling fans. I installed two of these:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=214705-1811-UT56TBC3M&lpage=none

Tom

[michael hurd]

From experience : put in as few windows as you can get away with.... as when the light is streaming in and you have the shop lights on you can`t see anything, especially early morning and early evening, it can get frustrating. Plan at least on emergency light ( the kind that are plugged in on charge, and go on with the power outage, near the man door. ( exit )

I would want a full length bench along one wall only, with the largest door you can get ( to go two feet wider is only a few $$ in the grand scheme of things...) but it makes it so much nicer to get trailers etc in and out without trouble.

As far as lighting goes, don't skimp out much, you will kick yourself later on. I would plan on having a few rows, plus extra lighting above the singular work bench area. ( recessed cans are good for this ) 36" doors are also really nice, maybe a double door to a small area ( clean room ) in the rear?

[colterphoto1]

we've nixed the 'clean room' idea in favor of a tarp on track at the mid point between garage side and workshop side so I can create a clean room or open it up.

probably only a couple of windows for a view and some natural light. 36 entry door yeah.

[BLSamuel]

Power outlets. You can never have too many. I would recommend multiple circuits for your worrkshop area - 1 (or 2) for your audio equipment and at least 2 (or more) for your power tools and anything else you might want to use. And label them so it's easier to avoid overloads. I like the idea of putting the outlets up high enough so one doesn't have to bend over a lot as that is easier on the back. The one's in our garage are pretty high and it's nice not having to bend over to plug and unplug tools. A couple are under some built in cabinets so those are kind of hard to access as they're near the bottom of the cabinets.

Outlets among the ceiling joists might come in very handy - the hanging retractable one's sound realy handy for small tools. I've found that dropping a cord down from above isn't in the way as much as one running accross the floor when using my table saw in the middle of the floor. Of course floor outlets would be wonderful but probably more difficult especially if you go with the radiant in floor heating.

I'm not sure you can ever have too much light. I would've thought the more windows the better for lighting but coming from Mr Paint about the trouble they can cause with lighting..... now some skylights strategically placed could be nice butwould probably get too expensive. And being able to open your overhead door will add a lot of light. You could always use one of those portable work lights if you find you need more light in an area.

Another thing with the radiant in floor heating, I'm sure you could add solar heat collection to it in the future without too much difficulty.

I'd also think a work table where you could work on speaker cabinets from multiple sides might be very usefull. Maybe a wheelie table with a mechanism to easily lock or raise the wheels so it's solid when in position.

I'm anticipating with all the thought you've put into this project the Shop of Klipsch will be one killer workshop.

[colterphoto1]

I'll probably not work out there if it's too inclimate. Heck I might give up this whole hobby before it's built the way I feel some days.

Skylights go against my grain - Grandpa said 'the minute you cut a hole in the roof of something you're inviting trouble'. I'll stick with that.

Windows pose another problem- security. Security will be top notch in this building.

[fini]

Michael,

You haven't mentioned tools! I know you've done carpentry/woodworking, so are you gearing up for that? If you're looking for tools (and want my opinion!) ask! I just bought an awesome miter saw (I've had a few, heh). Kind of a tool junkie here (of course I'm a carpenter, so at least I use the stuff!).

[J.4knee]

Which miter saw did ya get?

[fini]

Thanks for askin'![]

I got the Dewalt DW716. It's a 12-inch double compound, non-slider, that can cut a 2X10. I wanted a non-slider because they're really more stable than the sliders, and I wanted a real precise saw. I picked up a Forrest Chopmaster blade (locally, on Craigslist) for use with furniture and stain-grade trim. It's pretty light, too. At least it's lighter than my 15-inch Hitachi!

I bought it on Amazon. They had it for $377, with a Dewalt tool of your choice (4 choices). I chose the LED light accessory. It casts a shadow on the work, indicating where the kerf is. Pretty neat!

DW716 at Amazon

Free LED light

[colterphoto1]

I don't know that I need a really good chop saw, but this old Makita has seen better days.

What will be important is a great table saw. Marshall has a Dewalt I think, has the wheels and big table attachment.

I've got a variety of sanders, inexpensive router, Delta portable table saw, nice drill press, and 6' Craftsman rack along with buckets of tools for tile, plumbing, electrical, masonry etc. Did a lot of remodeling for a few years back in the day so all those tools are still around. And tons of gardening tools. I have a John Deere 140 that I used when I was 16, and spare chassis with tiller, blade, and snow blower. That'll be a heck of a project for a non-mechanical guy like me. I'm more of a carpenter than mechanic but I'll try anything.

And lots of tables for working on speakers and laying out veneer.

[Tom Adams]

Thanks for askin'!

I got the Dewalt DW716. It's a 12-inch double compound, non-slider, that can cut a 2X10. I wanted a non-slider because they're really more stable than the sliders, and I wanted a real precise saw. I picked up a Forrest Chopmaster blade (locally, on Craigslist) for use with furniture and stain-grade trim. It's pretty light, too. At least it's lighter than my 15-inch Hitachi!

I bought it on Amazon. They had it for $377, with a Dewalt tool of your choice (4 choices). I chose the LED light accessory. It casts a shadow on the work, indicating where the kerf is. Pretty neat!

DW716 at Amazon

Free LED light

(sigh......) Maybe one day my lowly el-cheapo 10" compound miter saw will grow up to a DW716.

I've been doing more trim work projects lately and a 10" saw is a PITA due to the cutting width limitation. And I'd love to have one of those miter saw stands with the support extensions. Sheesh......you should see the jerry-rigged contraptions I come up with.

Something I've noticed that you don't see much anymore is radial arm saws. Wonder why??

Tom

[fini]

Tom, I use the Ryobi stand from Home Depot. It's amazingly sturdy, especially for the price ($99!).

[greg928gts]

We're wrapping the 24 oc studs with OSB, then Tyvek house wrap so we have a more solid backing for the lap siding. Would using 2" blue foam and 3.5" fibreglass be better than 5.5" fibreglass? It adds a step and doubles the cutting. I will put secondary vapor barrier on the interior, probably just stapled on plastic. Can't get too fancy, with this square footage things add up in a hurry.

I'll keep looking into the PEX thing but something tells me to stay out of the contractor's way and keep this simple. I tend to complicate things.

Congrats on the shop! If you are interested in adding extra insulation using a combination of foam board and fiberglass I would just using the 5.5" fiberglass in the walls and putting 1/2" or 1" blue board on the exterior under the siding. Hardiplank can be installed over the insulation and you would just use longer nails. I don't know if you have worked with the Hardiplank before, but it is really good stuff! I have found that using a roofing nailer is the quickest way to install. Also you mention putting in a "secondary" vapor barrier. Be very careful with this. In the past few years the industry has moved from "vapor barrier" to "vapor retarder". They have to be carefully placed within the wall so that you don't create a dew point within the wall cavity which will result in mold growth. I have some details that cover the Indianapolis area at home. I will try and scan and email them to you tonight.

Running the pex isn't too bad. For my oversized one car garage my contractor said about $1,000 to run the tubing. I decided to remove it because I don't need to heat the garage all of the time. Radiant is great if you are in there working all the time, especially on cars or other items where you are on the ground all of the time. The drawback is that it isn't really efficient to set the temperature back. It is great if you want to maintain a constant temperature but if you want to maintain a minimum temp and then boost the temp while you are working out there then radiant probably isn't the way to go.

Good Luck,

Chris

Michael, Chris is right on here. Adding even a thin layer of foam to the outside of the wall really helps a lot. Fiberglass insulation doesn't work well when it gets cold air moving through it. Cold air can come in from the outside, or air starts moving inside the wall cavities on its own. Fiberglass batt insulation is mostly air, and the air can begin to circulate within wall cavities with the difference in temperature between inside and out, and that moving air can really impact the actual R-value of fiberglass. Dirty little secret the Pink Panther doesn't want you to know about. Don't use blown-in fiberglass anywhere. If you're insulating an attic area, use cellulose.

Adding foam to the exterior of the building will raise the temperature of the inside of the wall cavities, which is helpful in a number of ways. It makes the fiberglass perform better, it cuts down on heat loss through the frame of the building, and a warmer wall cavity will have far less chance of having a surface that is cool enough to reach that dew point temperature where condensation occurs.

Here in Maine with our cold climate, we still should use a vapor barrier on the inside of our walls and ceilings, but in even just a little milder climate, a vapor retarder is all you want to use.

Still very important to have an air barrier though. I always use a combination vapor barrier/air barrier, but if I were building in a milder climate a few hundred miles South of here, I would not use a vapor barrier. But I would still tighten up the inside of the walls and ceilings to prevent air from moving through walls and ceilings. You can find a lot more information on this subject here www.buildingscience.com but be prepared, it's a very involved subject.

I"ve had a lot of experience with Hardiplank and it is a very good product so far. I still have this lingering fear that about ten years from now they're going to come out with reports on this stuff and how it's falling apart or causing cancer or something. But so far so good. It paints wicked easy and it looks nice. In my area, vinyl siding is still a lot cheaper though, not so much because of the siding, but because of the trim work that is still wood, and then the paint finish. Here in Maine, a vinyl siding job will price out at about 1/3 the cost of a job using Hardiplank. Also, Certainteed has just come out with a competing product to Hardiplank and I like it better, it might be worth checking it out.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Thanks Chris, another great thing about this Forum is that we have experts in every imaginable field here!

I just got off the phone with 'The Radiant Floor Company' in Vermont and they are putting together a quote for a simple system for me.

http://www.radiantcompany.com/details/grade.shtml

All I have to do from my current plans is increase the floor insulation from just around the perimenter and 2' in to insulating most of the floor slab. Tamp the gravel down, install wire mesh, then tie off the PEX to the mesh. According to the link there's a pressurization test and temporary manifold installed, but the final hookup to a hot water heater should be not too difficult. The only tricky thing might be that I don't have water run to the building (yet), so would have to manually top off the system but the hose spigot isn't far away. There shouldn't be any (or very little) loss I should think.

You might want to check out buying PEX tubing yourself rather than getting it from The Radiant Floor Company. I've had a couple of experiences with them and everything was fine, but I found that they like to use large diameter tubing to keep costs down. The large diameter tubing can put out the necessary btu's, but the spacing ends up being so far apart that it doesn't evenly heat the floor. This may not be such a big deal in a shop as in a home though. You'll probably not be running around in bare feet! They do provide a good service by putting a whole package together that will work well for you. The problem for me is that I know exactly how to put together the same package, and actually even a lot better quality one for less money, so their service is not that attractive to me.

You should insulate the entire slab floor wherever you have radiant tubing. As someone here said, it's very important to insulate the edges of the slab. The greatest difference in temperature from inside to out (Delta T) occurs where the 80 degree slab is in direct contact with the cold outside air.

Greg