Colter's Shop of Klipsch

[colterphoto1]

Thanks but again not an option. There is a height restriction due to zoning. Im' doing well to get 10' side walls and 6' peak.

I am putting in 18" eaves so I can have soffit and ridge vents.

[greg928gts]

The raised heel is just a few inches to help provide more R-value right over the exterior wall. The other way to do it is to use cantelevered trusses. With the 18" overhangs, that will give you more height right above the exterior wall.

My rule is to have the same R-value that you're using in the wall right over the top of the wall in the attic. Then, of course, as the slope goes up, the R-value increases too.

5/12 pitch provides plenty of room to get up there and insulate, even for us big guys! It's not the most fun you can have, but it works. You will be able to stand up completely in the middle of the trusses.

It's really the perfect setup for a well insulated cap over your shop. You've just got to follow through with installing tons of cellulose.

BTW, if it's 32' wide with a 5/12 pitch, the truss is taller than 6' at the peak.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

Thanks for checking my math on that truss calculation. I'd better check with my builder.

Good point on the crawling around. I'd much rather be blowing in cellulose than hanging fibreglass overhead any day! I guess I'll leave a hatchway of some some sort, wasn't thinking about an 'attic' stair but will leave a doorway. Luckily the completion will be in cold weather so it'll be nice up there.

[fini]

But there's something so special about crawling around in an attic, a combination of fiberglass, sawdust and spiderwebs in and on your face, in the middle of summer...it's my weight loss program!

[Tom Adams]

Michael -

In a previous home I had built, I specified blown-in cellulose throughout the home. In the den area the ceiling was vaulted and I was sure the builder was going to tell me that he had to use bat insulation. To my surprise, they used a fabric like material that was fastened (stapled) to the bottom edges of the ceiling rafters. Then, slit type openings were made in the fabric and the hose was inserted. After each rafter bay was filled, the slit was sealed with a fiberglass tape. Finally, the sheetrock went up. This "fabric" was pretty strong and would not tear, yet you could see through it. Not sure what it's called, but maybe it would be an option versus an attic door?????

Tom

[greg928gts]

Michael -

In a previous home I had built, I specified blown-in cellulose throughout the home. In the den area the ceiling was vaulted and I was sure the builder was going to tell me that he had to use bat insulation. To my surprise, they used a fabric like material that was fastened (stapled) to the bottom edges of the ceiling rafters. Then, slit type openings were made in the fabric and the hose was inserted. After each rafter bay was filled, the slit was sealed with a fiberglass tape. Finally, the sheetrock went up. This "fabric" was pretty strong and would not tear, yet you could see through it. Not sure what it's called, but maybe it would be an option versus an attic door?????

Tom

Usually a reinforced poly that is stapled onto the rafters or wall studs. It's strong enough to hold back the pressure of the blown-in insulation. If not stapled a lot, the cellulose will blow between the poly and the edge of the stud, making it difficult on the drywaller. This is used with "BIBS" (Blown In Blanket System). The same could be done with any high strength poly like Tu-Tuff, no need to go with the heavily marketed system and pay the premium. It's a good system though.

For the attic hatch, you would just build a baffle around the hatch opening about 24" tall and fill the cellulose around it as you stand on top of a ladder. Then use a garbage bag full of fiberglass batts pushed into the hole and cover with a removable panel. If you're using a vapor barrier on the ceiling, just use a piece of that to cover the hole first and tape it up and then put the panel in. If no barrier, use a gasket for the panel.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

Grade issue guys.

My land drops 2-6 over the width of the building. I was trying to keep it on level with the old drive, but there's no way with keeping the 10' side walls and 5/12 roof pitch. Raising it the 2-6 by the easement to the neighbors side will make a hideous grade slope on the back side of the barn, make it appear that we're draining water onto him, and most importantly, my building will be higher than his, which is probably a no-no.

On the good news front, we found that the city measured the 14' height of my home at the garage hip roof. The roof is 18" taller over the gallery hip and a further 18" or so higher at the bedroom wing, giving me at least 17 feet of height to work with. My building with 10' walls and 80" trusses (per manufacturer) will be 16- 8". So I've made the height requirement!

What do you think of lowering the building 1'? That will mean a DECLINE in the drive towards the building 12" in 16' (with 24" apron by doors). This amounts to 3/4" in 12 or 6% slope. We'll put a drainage strip between the drive and the apron and divert water around to the nearby end of the building.

[greg928gts]

I think it's o.k. to have the driveway grade towards the building, but only to a certain point, then I would want the grade to go back up to the building. My rule is at least 1/4" per foot grade sloping away from the building for 10' on all sides.

Good news on the height requirement, hopefully you can work out the grade issues.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

I only have 18 feet to work in Greg. If I use your 10' rule I'll have a V shaped drive with a steep downward slope followed by steep upward slope. We've got to eat up a foot in grade difference in that 18 feet or back to the drawing board. I'll try to check some internet sites on drains.

How about a slightly sloped 2' apron right before the door? Despite the drain system, I don't want water gullywashing down the drive, shooting past the drain and into my door. I'd like to put a small 1-2" ledge there, but that sure make for difficult speaker moving.

[colterphoto1]

woohoo (that's a small w and small h, just in case)

The drainage inspector was by this afternoon. A kindly old gentleman of 83, he knew farmin' and how water flowed pretty durned well. He had some great suggestions including [drumroll] keeping the floor of the workshop on grade with the existing drive. He advised against the declining slope toward the building, even with a drain system. This simplifies things and he's totally alright with the block sticking out of grade 2 feet on the downhill side. He didn't even care if we finished graded around the building and had a point that we aren't creating new swales (waterways requiring more inspections), but we're doing 'drainage maintenance' (no permit required). Great guy! [] [Y]

'as long as you don't flow water onto your neighbor you're doing the right thing'

We might be digging next week.

[colterphoto1]

Of course now I'm getting buyer's remorse and jitters like crazy. I've never done a project of this scale before, always bought old homes, etc.

I could just sell off all the PA and speakers, cash it all in, nuke the hobby, start on something that didn't require it's own BUILDING for crissake!

HELP

[greg928gts]

I think you'll be a lot better off this way. It's no fun when the driveway heaves from frost, the drain freezes solid, there's several inches of ice in front of the door and water finds it's way under your door and into the shop. I've got experience.

Are building a slab with below-grade footings or frostwalls?

Greg

[colterphoto1]

full footers and blocks up above the slab.It'll have probably 2' of fill in some places though.

[BLSamuel]

I could just sell off all the PA and speakers, cash it all in, nuke the hobby, start on something that didn't require it's own BUILDING for crissake!

Needlepoint?

I'm kidding. I dunno, tis PA stuff and speakers, it's like who you are man, just roll with it.

Of course the workshop could support additional hobbies such as pottery ....but working with the clay is more fun with great tunes. But give up the PA and speakers - naw, you'd probably be miserable.

[greg928gts]

What I was getting at here is that you could have a better foundation for less money by building a monolithic insulated slab foundation with NO below grade footings. The single pour of steel-reinforced concrete is one giant footing which will carry more weight. The insulation keeps frost from creeping in under the foundation (it never freezes below these foundations). It sits on top of a compacted bed of gravel. There's not one dime-sized area in which concrete touches ground, unlike most slabs which have the footing sitting in wet ground with the frostwall on top of that. Concrete is like a big sponge. If you dipped the corner of a dry sponge into a bucket of water, what would eventually happen to the sponge? It would all become wet. Concrete is very similar, which is why I like to isolate, as well as insulate my concrete from the ground.

BTW, it's not a problem to have 2' of gravel beneath a slab as long as it's compacted properly. We're building a slab right now that has about 4' of gravel under one corner.

I've built over 80 of these foundations over the last 20 years here in Maine with great success. I have detailed information on this type of foundation (CD with over 70 photos, materials list, flow charts, etc...) that I can send to you and you can give it to your builder. It may just save you a couple grand and you'll end up with a better job.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

I appreciate the offer for info Greg, but we're pretty locked in to the manner in which this will be constructed. I wish I'd known earlier, there might have been the opportunity to do more research.

In cases like mine, where I'm dealing with a small independant builder, it might be best to go with methods they're familiar with. Mine will be footer, laid block, excavation, fill, compacting, insulate inner foundation walls and over fill, then pour slab. The slab will not be in contact with the ground at any point, nor with the foundation walls.

Thanks anyway, I need to step back and let the guy build the building. If I keep interrupting we'll never get started. It's going to be wild enough trying to lay down that PEX tubing some night without stopping their work flow!

M

[Tom Adams]

Sorry Michael for this tangent..........

Greg => Please explain this statement you made in a previous post, "The single pour of steel-reinforced concrete is one giant footing which will carry more weight."

This is not a trick question. It's just that your statement seems to fly in the face of everything I learned in Civil and Mechanical Engineering courses.

Tom

[BLSamuel]

If you dipped the corner of a dry sponge into a bucket of water, what would eventually happen to the sponge? It would all become wet. Concrete is very similar, which is why I like to isolate, as well as insulate my concrete from the ground.

That probably explains why our garage floor often gets wet and slimy. Not sure if previous owners had it built or a DIY job - I suspect it's just concrete on the ground and mostly DIY as they've done some other things that seem a bit odd. Pretty much verified by the dog(s) digging next to and a bit under the edges - would've expected some sort of footer. I'll have to ask my neighbor if one of the previous owners did the garage themselves or if he knows who they had do it so I know who to avoid should we ever build anything. May have been the previous owner that planted a Blue Spruce tree 3' from the house. (Of course the idiot current owner still hasn't cut it down. [:$] )

Michael's probably right, it may be kind of late to easily change this with his builder - new technique that he's not familiar with - would also require new permits. It does sound like it is a viable alternative and could be hard to beat if it's less expensive. I would think Maine would be a colder and harsher environment than Indiana. It is also possible that Indiana may have more freezing and thawing so that would be the biggest concern but still would think it should still work well.

Can't wait to see how Michael's workshop turns out. I'm sure I'll be jealous.

[greg928gts]

Sorry Michael for this tangent..........

Greg => Please explain this statement you made in a previous post, "The single pour of steel-reinforced concrete is one giant footing which will carry more weight."

This is not a trick question. It's just that your statement seems to fly in the face of everything I learned in Civil and Mechanical Engineering courses.

Tom

In reference to the footing area that most buildings here in Maine are built on. Typically a 8" thick 18" wide footing is what is used to support the buildings weight. In a monolithic slab pour, the weight of the building is spread over a much greater footing area. Hard to say exactly how much, but for sure more than 18".

Also, typical slab construction here in Maine requires three pours of concrete, one for the footer, one for the frostwall and one for the floor. Typically there's not much tying them all together either, which really opens up the possibility for problems down the road with frost action or settling issues. The monolithic slab is much stronger and more durable over the long term.

Greg

[colterphoto1]

After finally getting started and laying the foundation block today, my builder gave up. He's been in financial troubles which I could sense from his continued asking for draws before their due date. I'm taking over at GC so will be fetching materials and helping run bobcat for further excavation tomorrow. I helped the crew laying block today and I'm beat! I hired the lead carpenter and have a number for the concrete contractor so I'll be getting a smooth hand-trowled floor probably this weekend. There's going to be some cutbacks and the insulation and PEX tubing and fancy heating scheme is getting nixed. I've got to keep this simple and affordable.

Wish me luck! There's nothing like doing a job yourself. At least I'll be saving some money and gaining some pride in this building by my own sweat and labor. Should be fun. I found a thread from almost exactly 2 years ago when I was interviewing with Klipsch, getting ready to trip to N.O. for Dtel's weddings and life was great. That seems like a lifetime ago with the economy tanking and all that going on today. Today I am just a laborer but that's ok.

yer buddy,

Michael