jdm56 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Here is a pic from the side with a flash. With the flash, you can tell the mis-match. The RSW-12's do ok with the LSII, when listening to music through my Scott they are not turned up very loud, just enough to fill in, sounds great.That's hardly noticable at all! Looks like yours are a top to bottom mis-match too, just like mine. Regardless, they look great! Your set-up is pretty similar to mine except mine is audio only. I've got mine flanked by subs too (Velodyne DLS4000R's). Probably no match for the big RSW's, but they'll have to do for awhile.[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 Hi, I had '89 La Scala's that were replaced by 1980 Klipschorns. The Klipschorns are now out the door as well I think I'm done with the Klipsch brand. Ever since I bought some AR speakers I started realizing how much coloration these horns actually produce. And I don't like it... I guess ignorance was bliss... for a while. My klipsch progression has been '85 cornwalls / '98klipschorns / '08 la scala IIs' w/subs. I've never heard anything that I would call a "horn colorization" from any of them at any time in any room. In fact, I once measured a belle klipsch center speaker I was using with the k-horns. It measured +/- 2dB through the entire midrange (200-2000Hz), in-room! Granted, there could have been some very high Q deviations that the Rat Shack meter wouldn't show, but still that's pretty darned good, I would say. Of course, the k-horns didn't measure quite as smooth from the corners. I think they were +/- 3 or 4dB over the same range. Below 200Hz the room is going to dominate the response of any speaker. Measurements aside, klipsch heritage has always sounded smooth and natural to my ears. The only problems I've ever heard could all be attributed to room issues. That may explain the "colorizations" you hear, too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaudeJ1 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 Measurements aside, klipsch heritage has always sounded smooth and natural to my ears. The only problems I've ever heard could all be attributed to room issues. That may explain the "colorizations" you hear, too Once you are about 8-12 feet away from a speaker of any brand or type, 90-95% of the sound is the reverberant field of the room and it's interaction with speaker placement. It is also dependent on exactly where you sit and how you elevate or angle the speaker relative to that reverberant field called a room. Don't blame thetransducers. Once you throw in personal preference for "What sounds good" it becomes totall subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan krajewski Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 That is why I like horn speakers makes me feel like I am there. They can be a pain in the *** to get right but when I do it sounds outstanding! I disagree. I have both AR3a and the Klipsch Heresy. I would argue that the AR3a is the "you are there" and the Heresy (horn sound) is "they are here". Ctiger2 got it right. Very different. Better or worse? I still can't make up my mind. That's why I still live in both worlds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctiger2 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 The only problems I've ever heard could all be attributed to room issues. That may explain the "colorizations" you hear, too! I hear what you're saying... Now, have you ever listened to one of the sealed box design speaker brand like KEF, AR, KLH etc. type speakers right next to your Klipsch? The sealed box designs will sound Dull, closed in, some say boxed in, highs rolled off etc. But, as you listen to them over time you slowly realize the Klipsch are actually bright and the horn colorations become so obvious it's frankly kinda disturbing. The AR's are a very neutral (non-colored) sounding speaker. Everything played through the Klipsch will start to sound like it's coming out of a megaphone. That's the horn coloration and all the Klipsch I've owned have it. It must be the Klipsch sound. My first AR purchase back in Dec '07 was a pair of AR4x for $50. These are tiny bookshelf speakers. I put them side by side with the Khorns and cut them loose. At first they sounded dull & boxed in, just like I read they would. However, the bass was truly amazing for such a small speaker. In fact, I still really can't beleive the bass that comes out of these tiny tiny speakers. It's near Khorn bass and it makes no sense to me. I started playing with the volume on these little speakers and I could just keep turning them up up up and they just don't distort and they are never bright. The only real problem with the sealed box design is that you'll need gobs of good power to get them to their full potential. With my Klipsch I start turning them up up and next thing you know they become unbearable to listen to, literally shouting you out of the room, and you have no choice but to turn them down. It's really been a gut wrenching discovery for me over these last eight months or so. And, it's more or less been a slow unconcious realization as well. What I thought was good sound has been turned upside down and I think I've been in denial for quite a while now. I'm still on the fence debating whether or not to actually part with my beloved Khorns. It's internal strife at it's finest. [*-)] I think that's why I started browsing these forums again. Looking for something, answers, not sure. I don't think Klipsch are bad speakers at all. I've just come to the conclusion that they're best for Classical & Jazz at low to moderate low volumes. They sound quick, detailed & dynamic. I guess that's the whole fun of this hobby. New discoveries etc. Some good, some bad. I guess my main point is that Klipsch speakes are colored sounding. Some may like it, some won't. But, they are colored and I'm not so sure I like that sound anymore.. It's pretty strange, but I'm angry about this realization. I'm not sure who or why or what to be angry at though. Maybe those d*mn AR4x's I should smash up. [] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 That is why I like horn speakers makes me feel like I am there. They can be a pain in the *** to get right but when I do it sounds outstanding! I disagree. I have both AR3a and the Klipsch Heresy. I would argue that the AR3a is the "you are there" and the Heresy (horn sound) is "they are here". Ctiger2 got it right. Very different. Better or worse? I still can't make up my mind. That's why I still live in both worlds! Not sure what the difference is between the two, "you are there" and "they are here"? Sounds the same thing to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbsl Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 The only problems I've ever heard could all be attributed to room issues. That may explain the "colorizations" you hear, too! I guess that's the whole fun of this hobby. New discoveries etc. Some good, some bad. I guess my main point is that Klipsch speakes are colored sounding. Some may like it, some won't. But, they are colored and I'm not so sure I like that sound anymore.. It's pretty strange, but I'm angry about this realization. I'm not sure who or why or what to be angry at though. Maybe those d*mn AR4x's I should smash up. I think our taste can change as we age. No need to be angry just go with what sounds good to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctiger2 Posted September 15, 2008 Share Posted September 15, 2008 I apologize for slightly hijacking this thread. If I feel so inclined, I'll start a new thread at a later date. Enjoy that music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted September 15, 2008 Author Share Posted September 15, 2008 I hear what you're saying... Now, have you ever listened to one of the sealed box design speaker brand like KEF, AR, KLH etc. type speakers right next to your Klipsch? The sealed box designs will sound Dull, closed in, some say boxed in, highs rolled off etc. But, as you listen to them over time you slowly realize the Klipsch are actually bright and the horn colorations become so obvious it's frankly kinda disturbing. The AR's are a very neutral (non-colored) sounding speaker. Everything played through the Klipsch will start to sound like it's coming out of a megaphone. That's the horn coloration and all the Klipsch I've owned have it. It must be the Klipsch sound. My first AR purchase back in Dec '07 was a pair of AR4x for $50. These are tiny bookshelf speakers. I put them side by side with the Khorns and cut them loose. At first they sounded dull & boxed in, just like I read they would. However, the bass was truly amazing for such a small speaker. In fact, I still really can't beleive the bass that comes out of these tiny tiny speakers. It's near Khorn bass and it makes no sense to me. I started playing with the volume on these little speakers and I could just keep turning them up up up and they just don't distort and they are never bright. The only real problem with the sealed box design is that you'll need gobs of good power to get them to their full potential. With my Klipsch I start turning them up up and next thing you know they become unbearable to listen to, literally shouting you out of the room, and you have no choice but to turn them down. It's really been a gut wrenching discovery for me over these last eight months or so. And, it's more or less been a slow unconcious realization as well. What I thought was good sound has been turned upside down and I think I've been in denial for quite a while now. I'm still on the fence debating whether or not to actually part with my beloved Khorns. It's internal strife at it's finest. I think that's why I started browsing these forums again. Looking for something, answers, not sure. I don't think Klipsch are bad speakers at all. I've just come to the conclusion that they're best for Classical & Jazz at low to moderate low volumes. They sound quick, detailed & dynamic. I guess that's the whole fun of this hobby. New discoveries etc. Some good, some bad. I guess my main point is that Klipsch speakes are colored sounding. Some may like it, some won't. But, they are colored and I'm not so sure I like that sound anymore.. It's pretty strange, but I'm angry about this realization. I'm not sure who or why or what to be angry at though. Maybe those d*mn AR4x's I should smash up. Yeah, I've compared small speakers to klipsch, a/b style. My main conclusion is that conventional cones and domes generally (re?)produce more depth and three-dimensionality, at the expense of clarity and image placement. Sounds good with acoustic, not so much with electric. So you basically have to pick your poison! As for colorations, I'm not arguing with you, but I just don't hear them with klipsch. At least not in terms of frequency response abberations. I've never considered Klipsch excessively bright, myself. But then again, I've never been considered excessively bright either.[*-)] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan krajewski Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 That is why I like horn speakers makes me feel like I am there. They can be a pain in the *** to get right but when I do it sounds outstanding! I disagree. I have both AR3a and the Klipsch Heresy. I would argue that the AR3a is the "you are there" and the Heresy (horn sound) is "they are here". Ctiger2 got it right. Very different. Better or worse? I still can't make up my mind. That's why I still live in both worlds! Not sure what the difference is between the two, "you are there" and "they are here"? Sounds the same thing to me. "You are there" is when the speakers bring you to Carnegie hall or the recording studio. "They are here" is as if the musicians came over your house and were playing in your listening room. The difference is not subtle. And yes, at first listening, the AR's seem muffled and dull until you really get into the music. Then you start to realize that it's all there. Kind of like those 3rd eye art pieces where there is a 3D picture within the picture. Seems odd, but it's true. The AR speakers are not going to grab your attention. You have to sit, concentrate and listen carefully. Not for everyone. My experience is that the AR's strong point is classical music. I am also very happy with the Hereseys. They lack in bass but are crystal clear. I guess they are indicative of the heritage line in that some CD recordings are awesome while others are just about unlistenable. Right now I have the Hereseys in place and will keep them there for at least the next couple of months. My idea was that if I could live with Heresys then eventually I will get a pair of La Scalas. Another difference is that the Klipsch heritage don't break up with higher volumes whereas the AR's do. The AR tweeters are known to degenerate over time. Being indecisive by nature, I'll probably wind up keeping both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctiger2 Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 "You are there" is when the speakers bring you to Carnegie hall or the recording studio."They are here" is as if the musicians came over your house and were playing in your listening room. Hi Stan. Interesting observations. I know what you're getting at, but, if you are there, aren't they really here then? [*-)] My experience would be as follows: Klipsch speakers add a coloration which I affectionately refer to as ambiance to all playback. So, if you're listening to a studio recording the added ambiance makes it sound live. If you're listening to a live recording, the added ambiance make it sound live X 2. The AR's are more faithful to the recording. If it's a studio recording, it sounds like a studio recording. If it's live, it sounds live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctiger2 Posted September 16, 2008 Share Posted September 16, 2008 Double Post, Server Crashed on me [H] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan krajewski Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Hi Stan. Interesting observations. I know what you're getting at, but, if you are there, aren't they really here then? No. In the "you are there" case you are seated in Carnegie hall. In the "they are here" the musicians have come to your house. They are no longer in Carnegie hall. It has something to do with the background that the AR's provide. It may be a characteristic of acoustic suspension speakers in general. With the AR's, it seems the music is contained in a space which is within your room. The boundaries of this container are created by the recording and seem to have no relation to the walls,ceiling or floor in your room. With the Klipsch, your room is the container and provides the boundaries that the music is in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 I am here. You are there. We are everywhere. koo-koo-ka-choo[] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctiger2 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 With the AR's, it seems the music is contained in a space which is within your room. The boundaries of this container are created by the recording and seem to have no relation to the walls,ceiling or floor in your room. With the Klipsch, your room is the container and provides the boundaries that the music is in. Stan, OK, gotcha. Have you ever heard the AR9's? They're much bigger size than the AR3's. They don't have the added ambiance coloration of the Khorns which I feel gives the Khorns an even larger sound, but they sound just as big if not bigger than them.They sound like huge AR3's with no boundaries. I've read about people getting them dirt cheap on the net. If you like the AR sound. I think these might be the pinnacle of AR. Roy Allison designed. Check out the pic below. From Left to right, AR3, AR9, AR4x, Tannoy Monitor Gold 15", Klipschorn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 I got my new LS II's last Tuesday. On first listen, the bass was only mid bass and somewhat boomy. After about 33 hours with about 12 of those hours being at reasonably high volume the boominess has gone away and the bass has gotten significantly deeper. And now the bass is quite good and sounds lower than the specs would indicate. And yes, there is more bass than AR3a's... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 It does get better - a lot better. Try positioning them differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted December 15, 2008 Share Posted December 15, 2008 Hi, I had '89 La Scala's that were replaced by 1980 Klipschorns. The Klipschorns are now out the door as well I think I'm done with the Klipsch brand. Ever since I bought some AR speakers I started realizing how much coloration these horns actually produce. And I don't like it... I guess ignorance was bliss... for a while. Not everyone loves The Beatles either! Whoa! Tag joins in March of 2007, waits a year and a half and then BAM, delivers his one post with a vengence. The name "TAG" is good, never saw you comming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdm56 Posted December 16, 2008 Author Share Posted December 16, 2008 I got my new LS II's last Tuesday. On first listen, the bass was only mid bass and somewhat boomy. After about 33 hours with about 12 of those hours being at reasonably high volume the boominess has gone away and the bass has gotten significantly deeper. And now the bass is quite good and sounds lower than the specs would indicate. And yes, there is more bass than AR3a's... Cool! Let's see some pitchers! (As we say in the Ozarks[]). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richinlr Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 Here ya go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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