Klipsch vs Bose?

[twistedcrankcammer]

"901s have great soundstage"

To a degree that would be true. I've owned the original Series-I and the latest Series-VIb or whatever they are (as a test pair, since sold). It's application, application, application.

Here's my extract from the thread: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/103276.aspx

Chiming in... I took some time to think about this in the context of the thread, so it's just my opinion...

First, and to be clear: IMO, the Klipsch Heritage series are the best speakers ever made. I cannot testify to Palladiums or Jubilees (yet), but based on the Klipsch "track record", I would not have any worries on that evaluation... I've had a boatload of speakers (probably more than Colter over the last 36 years!!) many of which which were very good (AR's, pairs of Altecs, etc.), but hands down when you compare everything (including how easy they are to maintain, tweak, etc.), they are simply the best. Some would argue some of the esoteric, >$20k types, and that's understandable, but $ for $, you just cannot beat a Klipsch.

The "901" point I would make, or throw out there for some thought is basically, and without the usual "let's just bash Bose", if someone want's to consider the Bose 901's, it's going to be the application. Notwithstanding the room environment, and how they are driven, the 901's have a particular application parameters, and unless they are used within those, they will not sound good, at all..... .

Some background... Back in the day.... I had 901's (2 pairs, stacked...) and bought them new in 1971 in the PX (got'em cheap because they were the demos with the scratched tops, etc.) when I was making the really big bucks on active duty. I drove them with Sansui AU-999's, and sold them in 1975 when I got all sophisticated and bought JBL 4311's and 4312's. I kept those and in 1979 got really upscale and bought my first pair of Klipschorns (KC-BB's). Had those, a pair of 78' Heresy's and assorted JBL's until 2004. Finally sold the JBL's (to some folks who lived in Taiwan as I recall) because I could not get replacement drivers from JBL anymore, and ever since "collected" Heritage series.

Meanwhile, for no reason other than just having the opportunity, last month I picked up a pair of the original 1968 Bose 901 Type-I's for $300. Oiled walnut, surrounds were the original fabric, and still in pretty much mint condition. The equalizer worked pefectly, etc. So.... and having had Bose 901's, and knowing that placement, amps, and in particular knowing that the equalizer has to be set correctly..... I did some experiments with them in the "man cave" as the "centers". I use the same amplifier types as the K-horns, LS's, Forte's, Heresy's, etc. and started fiddling around. Now once I "dialed in" the distance between them, the height off the floor, and the equalizer setting, they sounded just fine. But.... in that specific application.

Maybe I should say something about that now. I like sweet spot listening and do it often; but sometimes I just like the "concert hall - wall of voodoo", and for that effect, I use multiple amps and multiple speakers. It's a "heresy", I know, but it works for me (key thing here is "works for me"... ). I've had a number of guests (forum members) who have listened to the wall of voodoo, and they generally agree that for what I'm doing, the volume levels, etc., it works.

So in my case, or from my perspective, it's the application.... As an example, in the master bedroom (old wall of voodoo - but now the "wall of boudoir"...), the LaScala's (in the center), along with a pair of K'horns in the corners and an Onkyo AVR do the HT thing for my wife. She loves it; they look nice and pretty, and sure sound great. The Belles? When I get finished, they will be the bottom "centers" with a pair of Heresys up top side on the HT set-up in the living room. Unfortunately, there is no place for K-horns in that room, absolutely no "free" corners. Now to be sure, I tested the 901's in the "living room from hell" (no corners, vaulted ceiling, half height open center wall, etc) and while I can get them to work, would require a major re-alignment of the room's furniture, etc. It does not matter if they are Bose 901's, Klipschorns, etc., that room's solution is restricted by the geometry of the walls, etc. I'm stuck with Belles or Cornwalls or Heresys in that room's configuration, and then only on one side of the room. My son's room, however has corners, and the original "KC-BB black beasts" I bought in 1979. He's happy and while the room is small & "cramped", they work, and work well. So, as one can see, it's an "application" driven hobby for me. Right tool for the job analogy....

How do the 901's compare to Heritage? It's like, to me anyways, like trying to compare the steak to the salad on the dinner table. On a "one on one" they cannot do what Klipschorns, LaScalas or Belles will do. The 901 design is just not for that. And that's the key to the 901's....

I read (and re-read) again... the 19 January 1968 instruction manual (16 pages!), and the original Hirsch-Houck Labs (Julian Hirsch) reports from 1968, and the E&E Lab reports that are with the original documentation. The "clue" so to speak, is in those reports. To paraphrase Mr. Hirsch, the 901 is really good, but it's designed for a wide dispersion sound stage effect, or in other words to create an auditorium effect, and generally within the room to mimic the sound that is about mid-audience area. Hirsch was honest in his evaluation and basically inferred that by design, they do not have the generally desired "sweet spot" effect (like Klipschorns and the others...). He (and the others) noted that proper equalizer settings are absolutely critical to make the 901's work. They do not have that bass response of any of the horn loaded bins, in particular at very low volumes. But what the 901 does do (and that's what they were designed for...) is give a very good compromise at moderate volumes, and this was an important factor: With a relatively small "footprint.

So.... What good are they? Well.... It's arguable and subjective. What am I going to do with the 901's? Well.... Where they will work well is in that center space (with the exit door in the middle) between the Klipschorns & Forte's. I also found that (like referenced in this thread), that by having them only 12" from the walls works better; height? 24". Stands? No. Don't laugh, but in the man cave, they will be on the tops of a heavily modified pair of Heresy's (K-28's, D250X's, CT-125's and an E/4500 crossover) - Reason, while that center area in the wall of voodoo benefits from the direct/reflecting 901, I still like having that highly directional effect that the Heresys do so well as centers.

Again it is the application and what you are doing with them!! But that being said, all speakers require require proper placement, good amps, etc. And with one exception, most speakers seem to sound "better" with certain types of music, or at different volumes, and in certain room layouts. I would like to say straight away that the exception for me is the Klipschorn. Other than that pesky "corner" thing, it sounds really good all the time, regardless of the source music type, and regardless of the volume. Even at the lowest possible volume on the amplifier, with the mute switch, and while it sounds like it's 2 miles away, it's is still perfectly clear and "balanced". The Klipschorn just simply does it's job, quiet or loud. For that, it is the ultimate "universal" speaker. When I get up in the morning at 0:dark-thirty, and put on NPR and roust the kids, it's the Klipschorns in the man cave that get turned on and I can clearly listen to them throughout the house. Same thing for working in the home office/man cave. If I could convince the boss that I need to put a pair of Klipschorns in my office I would do it....

Would I buy a pair brand new for $1400 plus tax? Nope, not a chance. When I get ready to plop down $1400+ bucks for a new pair of speakers, it'll be H-III's for sure on that one. My theory is that for the same price, the H-III can hold it's own, sound is more "clear" (cannot beat those horns!!!), you can move them around, they don't really have to be critically placed, and you don't have to screw around with an equalizer, etc.

Would I recommend the 901's to anyone. Probably not. Two reasons really, one is mechanical, and the other is because I truly believe that within the Heritage series there is a choice for everyone that can do the overall job and pretty much do it better. The mechanical reason? Several actually: The 901's need that equalizer to work. It requires you to "route" all of your input through the equalizer by way of a tape deck circuit (tape-in - tape-out), and you can only run the 901's off that amp or receiver. You cannot run the 901's and let's say, surrounds, sub, etc off an AVR because the Bose EQ will make them sound awful strange... You can hook another pair of whatevers up, but you have to turn off the 901's and defeat the EQ. That's a pain. What it means is that if you use 901's, then you are going to be restricted to 901's (unless you have multiple amps, and the source is "upstream" from all of them).

The other issue is that the design uses a full range, 35 watt (x 9 of them) long excursion (which is what killed the older foam surrounds...) driver. Until the volume gets up a bit, the reflective technology does not overcome the dampening effects of the walls and the room acoustics. That's probably the reason so many folks say they suck or sound "muddy" at low volumes. Even the EQ cannot compensate across the board for that problem at low volumes. For consistently low volumes, you have to set the EQ just right. Then if you turn them up, you will have to re-adjust the EQ and turn on the 40hz filter, and change the HF level. Now that's a pain. The other issue, and Hirsch pointed it out, is that driving all of those 18 x 35 watt drivers takes a good amp. Back in 1968, he recommended at least 60 watts RMS, and suggested that 200 watts would be more the ideal. By nature of it's design, the 901 is not an "efficient" speaker in the sense of the Klipsch horn loaded designs. You could, I suppose, run them with a 10 watt tube amp, but..... what's the point?... because you could never get them loud enough to appreciate the intended "effect" for which they were designed.

When Dr. Bose was an engineering grad student at MIT, his whole focus was on developing the reflective part of the technology to create the large space "auditorium" effect, much more so than concentrating on a pair of speakers that relied upon the location of the listener as the classical designs generally required. To that end, yes, the 901 is a successful design, but it has it's limitations, and that's where the "let's compare" problem lies. I also think that one of the problems that Bose has with the 901's is their marketing approach. For so long they have touted the 901 as the "finest", the "best", etc., but without emphasizing why they were designed and what the buyer is going to do with them. They (or their dealers) also hurt themselves by generally only demonstrating them in carefully constructed and treated rooms with specific source material, etc. Buyer gets them home, expects a duplication of the precise set-up they saw at the showroom, and of course they "suck". An analogy would be to "forget" or failure to make sure a Klipschorn buyer fully understands that yah gotta' have them in them thar corners....

If someone tells me they are going to buy a pair, after the usual "why not Klipsch?" discussion, I will certainly ask them to describe what they are going to do with them. What type of sound are they looking for? etc. Again,, it's the application. Even if someone has a line on a really nice used pair and their heart is set on them, I'd always tell them to stay away from Series II through early Series VI. Reason, as pointed out in the thread, the surrounds rot out. Bose knows it and about 2-3 years ago, they went to a completely different type of driver construction. They were getting really bad press because of it and they were embarassed. They now use a type of surround material that will not deteriorate. The 901 is their "flagship", and they are very sensitive to bad press or bad opinions about the 901's.

In substance, one could conclude that the 901 has a specific type of application, and other than using them in that environment for which they were designed, they will have "issues". When I mentioned to fenderbender that they are intened for a room full of people, or let's say a room where you and everyone else are moving around alot, or a room in which the music is more of a background (or maybe better described as supplemental) rather than the focal point of the gathering, then ok, that's the application for which they are intended. Unfortunately, for Bose...., is that you can do the same thing with respect to having a system that you would use for that "supplemental" music, but get the better resolution from a pair of Klipschorns, LaScala's, Cornwalls, etc. for the main event which is, when all is said and done, just sitting down and listening to music.

Hope that is of some interest. Again, only my opinion based on my experience with the 901's and being able to compare them with Heritage speakers.

Marshall,

Rather long winded, even for someone like ME, but a good read and I totally get what you are saying and agree.

Ramsha,

Obviously, my system isn't a fair comparrison to any $3,000 system.

I guessthe first question would be, do you have space for a decent sized pair of tower speakers. I can't understand the V-30 unless you live in a very tiny appartment with neighbors and thin walls, or a house trailer. If I lived in a house trailer, I think I would have to spend my $3,000 towards a down payment.

I will offer you this, if you have room to possibly place some decent sized towers, I will invite you over to my parents home in Lima, Ohio to listen to the system that I put together for them. Something similar could be done in that price range, and I garantee it will shread your expectations as long as you have room for tower speakers.

Roger

[DTLongo]

I don't mean this in any way to be arrogant. I have been following this string with interest and I want to commend everyone who has spoken to the issue from a viewpoint of other than a priori Bose-bashing.

I have 2003 Klipschorns. In an adjacent smaller back-up computer room and bedroom I have Bose 901 Series VI's, yes, purchased from a military PX abroad around 1988 and they like the Khorns are mint. Both sets are in audio- not home theater setups though the Klipsch room has a center channel 2004 Belle. The two speaker sets are different animals. For intense, no-holds-barred listening the Khorns of course get the nod. But the 901 VI's are much more easy to place and on their stands are visually very attractive to boot. For less-critical listening the Bose 901 VI's still acquit themselves remarkably well.

Earlier I had a set of Bose 301's that are now with my ex-wife in the Washington D.C. area and I listen to them once in a while when I have occasion to visit back there. They're pretty nice too. They are honest speakers for the price, I think, which is not the usual case with overpriced Bose. Likewise, the current 901 VI's at ca. $1400.00 I think are an honest value for the price IF intended for use in pure, two-channel stereo. Their required equalizer complicates things for their use in any other way. Apart from the above-mentioned 301 and 901 exceptions, Bose is wayyy overpriced for the sonic quality that you get. But as others have noted Bose are aggressive marketers and get their ads into everywhere - cable TV, Parade Magazine, USA Today magazine, Time, Newsweek, AARP Magazine, even NARFE (National Association of Active and Retied Federal Employees) Magazine, and sundry others. (When is Klipsch going to advertise in NARFE Magazine?) Pretty remarkable. And as regards their Lifestyle-type home theater systems, for folks who want "invisible" speakers and a user-friendly interface, Bose fills that bill. Such folks don't know or care what they're missing sonically, and Bose does a brilliant job catering to them. Bose is a marketing case study for business-school purposes.

So, objectively speaking it's a mixed bag. And I again applaud people in this string who have eschewed Bose-bashing to speak to issues more rationally.

[Ramsha]

Obviously, my system isn't a fair comparrison to any $3,000 system.

I guessthe first question would be, do you have space for a decent sized pair of tower speakers. I can't understand the V-30 unless you live in a very tiny appartment with neighbors and thin walls, or a house trailer. If I lived in a house trailer, I think I would have to spend my $3,000 towards a down payment.

I will offer you this, if you have room to possibly place some decent sized towers, I will invite you over to my parents home in Lima, Ohio to listen to the system that I put together for them. Something similar could be done in that price range, and I garantee it will shread your expectations as long as you have room for tower speakers.

Roger

I live in a home with ample space. But I won't mind even Apartment or even a house trailer. No issues. However, my quests is for 'better sound' even if I have to spend some money in the range you quoted. I am in west coast and not in Ohio area. Won't reach you, but have freinds with great Klipschorns etc. and big set up and have experienced them quiet a lot.

My quest is simple: Why so much of wood and big driver is needed to produce that level of sound. Dr. Who provided a good theory - but that's conventional. All speakers are build on that and hence need towers.

But component systems also 'don't save you money if the argument is Bose is overpriced etc. I am ending up at same range with Klipsch, Definitive, KEF, Mirage and Polk! So. that nullify! Also, I don't need "EXTRA" Bass to get excited. I need uniformity and completion of sound etc. Tha'ts the requirement. So, I thought this forum may help, but....

[Ramsha]

Will have V-30. I heard them for many a weeks and others for months... Decided to go for V-30. Great.... However, I must say others sounded great, but there was some detailing in V-30 that was missing in most of them,

The V-30 systems I've seen online run about $3000. Before I'd lay out that much on the Bose V-30, I'd want to hear other systems in the same price range. Klipsch has a few:

WF-34 - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/wf-34-home-theater-overview/

XL-23 - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/xl-23-home-theater-overview/

RF-62 - http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/rf-62-home-theater-system-overview/

Three different product lines with different attributes, but all 5.1 channel home theater systems for around $3000. True, you'll need to supply your own amp and DVD player, so you could knock it down to the next lower system with prices in the $2000-$2500 range, leaving enough left over for an AVR and DVD player.

If after comparing all of those systems (including any other brands you might think of), you should go with what sounds the best to you.

I have heard all these and all are excellent. So overall whichever one I get, I will land in the range of $3K+! So much for overpriced Bose. Anyway the sound from the ones you mentioned is excellent. The problem is it's not 'user-freindly' or to an exten 'listener-friendly' (mean : you need to bother to set them to get a "Sweet SPOTs" etc. etc.! Even Klipsch Site mention Sweet Spot generously in their demo videos!

I propose you look this, if you can rationally help me with this: http://www.bose.com/popup/tech_details/popup_waveRadioReveal.jsp

This is about Size and filling sound. That caught my attention on Bose site.

[Ramsha]

When the engineers said they had reached physical limits, the comments were true....manufacturing capabilities at the time were the limiting factor. They had already designed the next set of faster chipsets when those comments were made because they knew it was only a matter of time for the manufacturing capabilities to catch up. It wasn't a matter of "maybe we can do better", but was entirely a matter of "this is the best we can do right now". If you are unable to build something, then it isn't physically realizable. But again, they had already designed the next two generations of chipsets before it was even possible to start manufacturing them.

I was trying to get answers to these here: http://www.bose.com/controller?event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/learning/waveguide.jsp

I know you all will make fun of this or me by quoting this site. But I was reasing it seriously. I don't think they are fooling us by writing all these.

Let me quote from this site: "Additional analysis and measurements showed that the tube could be folded into intricate patterns with no ill effect on sound quality. This meant a waveguide measuring several feet in length could be woven into a small tabletop enclosure, delivering sound with more clarity, depth and lifelike quality than a conventional component stereo system. "

Probably this would explain some of it to us.. But still... I am going to learn further even if I purchase one brand or other... :-)

[Ramsha]

You want room filling sound, come on over with a blindfold on, nothing should matter except the sound quality right ? If looks are more important, I am talking to the wrong person sorry, I thought we were talking quality audio, not WAF .

What if I need both? Do you have any readymade solutions? Or is that in your theory exclusive properties. To simplify for you: Are you saying if I need performance, I won't get Aesthetics and vice-versa?

[Oblio]

The Bose wave radio is a good clock radio, if that is what you are looking for. It is WAY overpriced, and the marketing ads are flat out BS. It sounds good for what it is (a clock radio), but it does not approach the sound of 'larger systems' that cost 'thousands more'. To quote a prominant politician (and addressing Bose), 'You Lie !'

And yes, in case you are wondering, I own one.

[dtel]

" What if I need both? Do you have any readymade solutions? Or is that in your theory exclusive properties. To simplify for you: Are you saying if I need performance, I won't get Aesthetics and vice-versa? "

Not in a speaker the size of a box of salt, even sub-satellite setups lack that live sound. IMO

Look for something in the price range/size you want that fit both aesthetics and what you think sounds good, forget about names and brands, just go with how it sounds thats what your buying them for anyway.

[dtel]

Do you have any readymade solutions?

No I don't really, I went with what sounds best to MY ears and aesthetics were not considered except as an after thought, but my wife really loves them and how they look, they were actually her idea ! ( Want to talk to her ) She would probably ask you if you are nuts for considering that for 3K, or she would not be that nice about it.[:|]

[Ramsha]

She would probably ask you if you are nuts for considering that for 3K, or she would not be that nice about it.

ok... I thought it's you who is 'audiophile' at your home [D] .. Enjoy your evening! [|-)]

[Ramsha]

She would probably ask you if you are nuts for considering that for 3K, or she would not be that nice about it.

ok... I thought it's you who is 'audiophile' at your home [D] .. Enjoy your evening! [|-)]

[Ramsha]

She would probably ask you if you are nuts for considering that for 3K, or she would not be that nice about it.

ok... I thought it's you who is 'audiophile' at your home [D] .. Enjoy your evening! [|-)]

[twistedcrankcammer]

Obviously, my system isn't a fair comparrison to any $3,000 system.

I guessthe first question would be, do you have space for a decent sized pair of tower speakers. I can't understand the V-30 unless you live in a very tiny appartment with neighbors and thin walls, or a house trailer. If I lived in a house trailer, I think I would have to spend my $3,000 towards a down payment.

I will offer you this, if you have room to possibly place some decent sized towers, I will invite you over to my parents home in Lima, Ohio to listen to the system that I put together for them. Something similar could be done in that price range, and I garantee it will shread your expectations as long as you have room for tower speakers.

Roger

I live in a home with ample space. But I won't mind even Apartment or even a house trailer. No issues. However, my quests is for 'better sound' even if I have to spend some money in the range you quoted. I am in west coast and not in Ohio area. Won't reach you, but have freinds with great Klipschorns etc. and big set up and have experienced them quiet a lot.

My quest is simple: Why so much of wood and big driver is needed to produce that level of sound. Dr. Who provided a good theory - but that's conventional. All speakers are build on that and hence need towers.

But component systems also 'don't save you money if the argument is Bose is overpriced etc. I am ending up at same range with Klipsch, Definitive, KEF, Mirage and Polk! So. that nullify! Also, I don't need "EXTRA" Bass to get excited. I need uniformity and completion of sound etc. Tha'ts the requirement. So, I thought this forum may help, but....

Ramsha,

Why do you twist things to mean what YOU want them to?? You paid no attention to the fact that I said "shread your expectations" I did not say that they would be as good as Bose, on the contrary, I was stating it would be far superior in the same price range. I wanted you to listen for yourself.

As for you being on the west coast, when you sign up to the forum, it lists your time zone, and as such that you are listed as the same time zone as I, the west coast theory seems to be flawed.

As for your post about the port in the wave radio, which has absolutely nothing to do with the V-30 you WISH you owned. In addition to having nothing to do with the V-30, this port idea was borrowed, not a Bose idea. I can explain how and why that port works, can you?? I doubt it because I haven't seen you be able to technically discuss anything you claim. I have only seen you berate others and you don't even OWN the system you push as dominate.

Further still, I believe there is another lie in the fact that through your own statements your experience with Klipsch is one month, yet you have friends with K-Horns of which you have experience with, well I'm calling [bs] on that one as the Klipschorn is not available at best buy.

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

She would probably ask you if you are nuts for considering that for 3K, or she would not be that nice about it.

ok... I thought it's you who is 'audiophile' at your home .. Enjoy your evening!

Ramshaw,

Cheap shot and a tripple post there eh, TROLL?

Roger

[Coytee]

I'd wager lunch this is the same person as Batmans Robin

No sense in suggesting an audition, effort to help, try to educate... he's not here for any of that.

[Ramsha]

Cheap shot and a tripple post there eh, TROLL?

Roger

My apology for that, didn't mean to hurt.. intended as a light joke came out badly.

[Ramsha]

As for you being on the west coast, when you sign up to the forum, it lists your time zone, and as such that you are listed as the same time zone as I, the west coast theory seems to be flawed.

When I signed up, I didn't care and still don't care as to what default location it chooses for me. Hope that help.

Further still, I believe there is another lie in the fact that through your own statements your experience with Klipsch is one month, yet you have friends with K-Horns of which you have experience with, well I'm calling on that one as the Klipschorn is not available at best buy.

Trying to find some contradictions in my 'cliams' is fine, but I know what I know, I have learnt, what I have! BB carry hundreds of speakers in aroom and many of those are Klipsch -- towers, quintet etc. etc. Sales man would 'close' the doors of the room during demo to 'give you great' feel of every product they keep. I asked the Salesman why to close doors? Answer : "Experience the quality ... compared to Bose you just heard" (which were all outside in big hall with hundreds of other TVs/systems blaring sound)! I didn't heard Klipsch (this time) there by Mirage and Definitive.. Mirage was far better. (didn't recall their brand numbers/name.. ) Many a times they will playKlipsch first and then Definitive and finally Polk etc. to 'hint' their own heirarchy of speakers! One guy was keen to demonstrate the powers of Mirage and I was sincerely impressed.

At friends place they have Polk and Klipsch. Heard them. Polk in my taste was a tade higher. Heard V-10s hundreds of times at (I owed one till recently..). Lovely piece.

Overall, it's the taste of particular pair of ears that matter.

Now whatever you call [bs], yours choice..!

[DrWho]

I know you all will make fun of this or me by quoting this site. But I was reasing it seriously. I don't think they are fooling us by writing all these.

Let me quote from this site: "Additional analysis and measurements showed that the tube could be folded into intricate patterns with no ill effect on sound quality. This meant a waveguide measuring several feet in length could be woven into a small tabletop enclosure, delivering sound with more clarity, depth and lifelike quality than a conventional component stereo system. "

But what if you don't want your music to sound like a flute? [][]

[dtel]

She would probably ask you if you are nuts for considering that for 3K, or she would not be that nice about it.

ok... I thought it's you who is 'audiophile' at your home .. Enjoy your evening!

Not really any " audiophiles " here we just like music and like it to sound live.

[psg]

You guys are still feeding the troll?