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Vinyl vs. CD @ HD. Score sheets and music from A.C.A.


skaloumbakas

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Hi,

Probably the most favourite subject between audiophiles around the world is the on-going "fight" between analogue and digital. Since the introduction of the CD in 1981 and after some years of the digital predominance, digital seems to have hit the technological roof and analogue is making a strong come back in the last 10 years. Personally all over these years I have made my comparisons with various material and I have concluded them in a paper named at http://aca.gr/rec05_skal1.htm

But some people were telling me that my old Wadia 8/15 pair was technologically outdated and so the comparison was not fair, so I decided to organize in my listening room a blind test between a top digital (whatever that means...) and my analogue gear, with lots of people invited...


See the rest of this very interesting IMHO story here:

- http://aca.gr/event08-9.htm (with lots of pictures and 10 videoclips covering the event).

I hope you enjoy it...

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Interesting test...I would have liked to have seen the outcome where nobody new whether they were listening to analogue or digital.

Even more important, this was NOT a fair digital vs. analogue test anymore than a lightweight vs. heavyweight match would determine the heavyweight championship of the world.

CD vs. high end phongraph is a no brainer requireing no test. If you are going to test digital vs. analog you want to use PCM of at LEAST 24/88.2 or 1 bit, 2.8mhz.

This one, while I am sure it was fun, isn't scientific and proves nothing except audiophiles can get together and have lots of fun! Wish I could have been there...(though given my opinion I might not have been welcome).

Dave

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PCM at the highest levels are not analog and apparently never will beBig Smile Ease of use is and always will be the only reason to have a digital format vs. analog for meWink

I know you have worked extremely hard to close this gap Dave but I'm analog to the coreYes

Not sure I am fully understanding...

When PCM or other digital format leaves your loudspeaker, it IS analog and always will be. As to ease of use. there is certainly no competition between punching a remote or touchscreen compared to the rigors of record cleaning, TT alignment and maintenance, and all that shelving in my listening room, so I don't follow that.

Finally, just as the hard core digital freak is cut off from the majority of the recorded musical riches of the 20th century, the analog forever fanatic misses out on the ever growing digital output of the latter 20th and 21rst centuries.

I want it ALL.

Dave

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Not sure I am fully understanding...

Digitally processed music grates on my ears, it's not natural nor is it analog once you start processing. I can appreciate your quest for perfect digital Dave I just have never heard any (including the new Blue Ray) that does not get on my nerves or at least my ears nerves[:o]

You know Dave I have a fine digital rig in my CDT-100/DSP7000 combo but my heart and ears lie in the analog realm! I overlook the anomolies I hate to have my Mini Disk in my car and iPods for fun but they never equal the pleasure of freshly cleaned grooves[:D]

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For what it's worth, I've never seen anyone identify a digital source when he/she doesn't know that something digital is in the signal path.

However, I have seen lots of people contradict it without ever doing it properly (as is the case with this original post).

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I am sorry DrWho and Dave but out of 12 forums that i posted this and out of 18 people present in the event, you are the only ones saying that THIS test was not properly done.

Differences were simply CHAOTIC between ANY DIGITAL and the TURNTABLE and nobody cared to fill-up the score sheet again...

PLEASE READ IT A BIT MORE CAREFULLY, WILL YOU?

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I wouldn't have made my comment had I not read it carefully enough to be confident in my observation.

Same here. The moment I found only low resolution digital sources involved I did not need much further research, though I read anyway as I was intersested in the awesome phono source material you guys feasted on.

Did I miss anything about any digital resolutions that would be a reasonable comparison? Redbook is a nearly 30 year old medium that cannot be considered high resolution and is hardly suitable for comparing to top of the line analog no matter how it is done.

As I said, I am sure this was a great gathering (I would assume Max was present, guaranteeing same), but the results were predictable regardless of one's predjudice.

Regards,
Dave

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Whilst Dave and the good Doctor are right - CD is hardly cutting edge and far from the pinacle of digital, it is the ONLY digitial medium (outside of MP3) with a comparible volume of music out there that one can enjoy.

SACD and DVDa have fairly lousy coverage of the musical spectrum and high res "soft" digital recordings are if anything even scarcer.

Sadly (and I mean that) if you want to be able to build a decent library of the best possible quality you have to go vinyl. The only viable alternative appears to be ripping your own vinyl collection to hires digital. As a copy it can only be "almost as good".

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>The only viable alternative appears to be ripping your own vinyl collection to hires digital. As a copy it can only be "almost as good".

I agree with all your statements except this one. You are stepping outside your own experience here and rendering a conclusion based on insufficient evidence. I've done several blind A/B's between the direct to disc Crystal Clear Virgil Fox record (considered about as good as vinyl can get) and a 1 bit, 2.8mhz digital copy with those listening unable to tell the difference. I would not say that settles it for you or the rest of the audiophile world, but it indicates that digital can be more than "almost as good."

As to the event, it was billed as "digital vs. analog." In that, it was totally flawed given that only the first level of non-compressed digital was compared. No way you can call that "digital vs. analog." It's just CD vs. LP. No contest if the best of each medium is used given that the specs of 16/44.1 cannot match those of the best of analog except in the dynamic range area...and even that would not be the case if you used 15ips or better half track analog tape.

Small quibbles? I don't think so. We are audiophiles, and when you have guys who'll argure over the "sound" of various power supplies or capacitors, we are talking BIG differences here.

Dave

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Fair enough Dave - on both points.

What can I say - you have better digital toys than me. Interesting that 1 bit 2.8 MHz does so well- as I am yet to hear an SACD that can hold a candle to vinyl. I take it we are talking DSD recording here....

I agree on all points. But it is the engineering at fault. If those were analog, they'd sound no better. Only one out of 10 of my lp's is good. Only one of a 100 is great, and one of a thousand is awesome.

I had not heard a CD I really liked until I recorded the Foster piano CD. In the case of piano, I have YET to hear any vinyl that comes close to sounding like a real piano. I think it has to do (along with engineering in general) with surface noise, which even with DBX is rarely completely inaudible and with dynamic compression. Piano just doesn't fare well on analog.

As to SACD (DSD) or any digital format, all I am suggesting is that one not blame the glass if the wine is bad. If digital were a loudspeaker, it would be a Klipschorn. It is totally unforgiveing to the acoustics, to the engineer, to the instrument, to everything. Nothing is hidden and all is revealed.

I have several DVD-A's and none live up to the promise. One of them is a Grammy winning AIXX in surround. The surround is contrived, and the recording sounds, well, like a recording. However, I don't blame 24/96 for that. It's clearly poor (at least by my tastes) engineering.

Dave

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I didn't invite Max because he is in favor of vinyl. I invited the homus digitalis... to persuate them... Devil

Max was the first who listened an update I made to my analogue, so he didn't need the experience anyway...

You may not be aware that I have 5 times as much analog as digital in my collection, and three turntables, one of which is dedicated to 78rpm of which I probably have 400 or more.

If I am homo digitalis, then I am gay... [:P]

Dave

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