Balmer
-
Posts
22 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Forums
Events
Gallery
Posts posted by Balmer
-
-
Before I get to the problem, I would like to layout some background information. I am planning on using the Tact 2.2 XP Room Correction Device in Ambiophonic Mode. This calls for two closely spaced front speakers (two Khorns with false corners 25 degrees apart), and two closely spaced rear speakers (two Cornwalls 25 degrees apart) all equal distant from the sweet spot. The digital processor will cancel cross talk between the front two speakers, and the rear two speakers while processing the sound to achieve a more realitic spacial sound then two front speakers at 60 degrees apart and using a center speaker. The two rear speakers will add more depth to the sound as in a theater, or symphony hall. Ambiophonics has come a long way in the last twenty years, and Tact is leading the way.
Now let's get to the problem. I have two Cornwalls for the rear speakers to add depth and ambiance. I do not have enough cash to get LaScalas and pay for the shipping which is out of sight. However, I do have an extra pair of Khorn tweeters, midrange horns and crossovers. Lets face it, the Khorn drivers and crossovers sound much better than those of the Cornwalls. I realize that the bass folded horn of the Khorn is far more efficient than that of the nonfolded Cornwall. The upper range of the 15 inch bass speakers for both the Cornwall and Khorn would probably sound the same since a folded horn would not influence the efficience of that frequency range. I have an active crossover that can shut down the bass of the Cornwall at any point. At what frequency should I turn off the bass of the Cornwall so I will be able to use the Khorn tweeter, midrange horn, and crossover in the Cornwall? I'm not concerned about losing the lower end of the bass in the Cornwall, because the Khorns in the front will more than make up for it. Thanks for your help.
-
the upper sub woofer will cover a half an octive range from 50Hz to 32Hz which is the frequency range of the Khorn up to the lowest point of the LaScala.
I've found that La Scalas (mine, at least) start to roll off at around 90Hz, and I get the smoothest bass response running the sub all the way up to 150Hz. The sub's upper-end rolloff seems to be sort of gradual, so it blends well with the La Scalas with that setting. My room is 18' x 19', opening on one side to a vestibule, hallway and dining room, so it's sort of like 18' x 30', if that helps.
Posted specs and in-room performance can be quite different.
Have you tried using an equalizer with your sub? I was getting a very irritating peak at 32Hz and a dip at 60Hz, even with the sub in its optimum location (I tried several other spots first), and the EQ helped a lot. I didn't completely EQ out the peak and dip, but I was able to make them less noticeable, so that was worth it to me. I used an old 10-band stereo EQ that I hadn't used in years, connecting only one channel of it.It sounds like we both are having the same problem, however, my problem starts at 32Hz and gets progressively louder as the frequencies increase. I have not tried an equalizer. I used an analog equalizer thirty years ago and was disappointed with the distortion. I guess the quality of the equipment has improved since then. I had no idea that I would have to start the subwoofer at 150Hz! This is a whole new ballgame. I wonder if there are digital equalizers or room correction processors that will serve that purpose?
-
As far as running two subwoofers over two bandwidths....that's fine and all, but is kind of a waste - especially if you're using two of the same subwoofer. You will have lower distortion, possibly better modal response, and more headroom using two identical subs to cover the same range.
If you're having trouble blending your subwoofer with your mains, then I would suggest that you simply don't have things dialed in correctly. I'm not quite clear on the whole configuration and the equipment you're using, but I would try to get the most out of your configuration before spending money. But if you're really set on your propose plan, then I would certainly encourage finding out for yourself. Just try to keep time and phase alignment in mind....especially when dealing with horns.
DrWho, thanks for the clarification. It's never too late to learn new tricks. As for using two subwoofers dividing up one and a half octives, I'm trying to keep the sound levels as flat as possible throughout the 50 to 16Hz range. I am able to to get the sound level of the subwoofer in the 32 to 16Hz range the same as the LaScala. However, while using only one subwoofer to cover the full 50 to 16Hz range, the 50 to 32Hz range is about 10 dB louder than the 32 to 16Hz range. I was thinking of using a separate amp and attenuator to lower the 50 to 32Hz range down to the same level as the others. Will this work? What do you mean about time and phase alignment?
-
Why would you place the subs at the rear of the room? You know what works best in your room and it would make sense for movie explosions and the like, but for 2-channel music at least, all the sound, including bass notes, would come from the area of the main speakers at the front of the room.
Islander, the upper sub woofer will cover a half an octive range from 50Hz to 32Hz which is the frequency range of the Khorn up to the lowest point of the LaScala. The full wave length of these frequencies is from 24 to 32 feet, or the half wave length which is enough room to hear the notes is from 12 to 16 feet. Since the listening room is 13 by 20 feet, these frequencies are omnidirectional. This means you could put these woofers anywhere in the room (front, side, rear) and you couldn't tell the original location of the sound. The second subwoofer will cover a full octive below that from 32Hz down to 16Hz. The full wave length of these frequencies is from 16 to 64 feet. I doubt if 16 Hz will even be developed at all in the listening room.
-
I am considering substituting a subwoofer for the range below the LaScala in the Khorn range as a substitute for the BIG Khorn bass box. Then use another subwoofer for the sub Khorn range. I have found from my experience that one subwoofer covering the full sub LaScala range doesn't work well. It seems that subwoofer volume levels drop off quickly within the first 10 dB. If I want to hear organ notes in the sub 30 Hz level on par with the LaScala, then the subwoofer volume levels above 30 Hz are too loud and unnatural. If I had two subwoofers while using an active crossover, I could set the first one from the threshold of the LaScala to 32 Hz. which is the Khorn range, and the second subwoofer below that to the limits of the room. Each subwoofer could have it's own amp and volume control so the frequency range could be more linear throughout the entire bass and sub bass ranges. The Khorn box is an eye sore aesthetically, but replacing the Khorns with LaScalas and putting two subwoofers in the rear of the room would solve that problem. However, I will not do this unless the Khorn bass sound can be substituted convincingly. What are your recommendations?
Presently Iam using Khorns with two TacT passive subwoofers each with a range down to 13 Hz. The avtive crossover is set at 32 Hz.
-
I am presently using Mark Levinson 334's with my K-horns. While the image is sharp, clear, and full, it is also has an "in-your-face" problem which makes the listening experience fatiguing.
I think that I may have found a partial solution to the "in your face" problem. The TacT RCS-2.2 XP processor has a built-in ambiophonic digital processor that will make the sweet spot sound like it's at any location in a theater, or symphony hall by making sonic changes in time delay, and cross talk cancellations. I had one of these units twenty years ago made by Sony and was very disappointed. I understand that this technology has come a log way and TacT is leading the way. Has anyone actually heard this processor and can you recommend it. Does it convincingly make you feel like you are in the middle of a symphony hall?
-
Hey Balmer, I have two Cary CAD300se amps running my Khorns. I have the alk universal network, but am running everything else stock. I have run the khorns with a Bryston 4bst (a very good amp) and a Rotel 1080 (?) amp both around 200+ wpc. With the Cary SET amps it sounds so much better. Hard for me to verbalize, but just more enjoyable to hear. Marty
Marty, thanks for the tip on Cary. I'll add that to tubes to try out. You may want to check out the ALK wooden horns. Those made as much an improvement as the ALK crossover. I have a Bryston 7B-ST amp that sounds so harsh that I can't wait to sell it.
-
I got rid of the forward, in your face sound in my La Scalas (I call it "calmer", "less edgy") by wrapping hot Dynamat around the squawker horns and stuffing the upper cabinet tightly with polyester fiberfill.
Another excellent tweak is to be totally anal about sealing all of the edges of the bass horn to the walls with rubber. Surprisingly, it is supposed to improve the upper bass and make the squawker seem less forward.
I got Al's (ALK) wooden horns and his universal crossover to replace the metal horns and crossover that come with the Khorns. The crossover has a transformer with multiple leads that allow for volume adjustment of the midrange horns. The wooden midrange horn does not ring at all like the metal horn and the sound dispersal of the wooden horn provides a three dimensional image that is far superior to the original megaphone-like metal horn. I would recommend this approach to get a smoother, less edgy, three dimensional image from the midrange. I can not express enough just how much the midrange sound can be improved with these tweaks.
Sealing the bass horn with the wall will always give the best bass results.
-
The output of my two amplifiers turns out to be close to the perfect power ratio (can’t even begin to tell you the math) for passive bi-amping. It takes about ten times more output to drive the bass bins to a certain SPL compared to the mid and high horns.
I have Al's universal passive crossover which has two inputs: one for bass and one for the upper two horns. Couldn't I apply a passive line volume control to the tube amp and match it with the higher volume ss amp? At that point, the master volume control could work both amps simultaneously.
-
I am really surprised that a Levinson 334 has any harshness with these speakers. Levinson is not known for harshness, they are actually known to be very smooth and laid back amps. If you had a Krell amp I'd say just go for another amp without an audition but it may be hard to get a smoother amp than teh Levinson.
What preamp and source are you using?
Harshness has never been a problem with the ML334 amp. The lack of nuance, suble detail is the culprit. As I said before, I would rather seem like I'm in the middle of the orchestral seats then in the front row which is how I feel now. The source is the Esoteric X-3; and the preamp is the Placette active with two of the passive preamps as volume controls. As you can see, quality is not an issue, but solid state is.
-
I love my combination of quality, low power, solid-state amplifier driving the bass bins with quality, low power tube amplifiers driving the mid and upper range horns. I believe ultra-efficient horns expose the glassy edge of second order harmonics in the critical midrange and the upper mids of most solid-state most amplifiers. It wears out your ears. I went for assembled Bottlehead 2A3 Paramours, with a 45-pound vintage Pioneer class A solid-state amplifier driving my bass bins.poster NOSvalues offers <$1K
As I read your reply, it was like I was hit in the head with a baseball bat. I then realized after listening to Khorns for over thirty years, most of the 125 watt power in my ss amp is directed by the crossover to the bass while very little energy goes to the midrange and tweeter. Otherwise those speakers would be burned up in no time. Therefore, with biamping, all that I will need is an inexpensive low wattage tube amp for the upper two horns. The expense of an amplifier is largely based on power which in my case won't be needed. I have finally seen the light, but boy do I feel stupid! Yes, it's never too late for an old dog to learn new tricks.
-
To me this in your face sound does't occur untill you hit 100 to 110 dB on the rat shack sound level meter in my room. I listen to music at 96 to 100 dB.all the time. When I want to feel all the energy I crank it up to a min. of 104 dB. You can only listen to it at these levels for about 10 min. at a time. Then you have to give your ears a break. Again, this is when the sound begins to over power you and gets in your face and is even scarry. I havn't found the max. volume of my system in my room. It seems like it can keep going without distorting. It gets dangerous, because the music still sounds so clean and clear. You need to check the sound level meter and only go to these levels for short sessions. I'm used to looking at the meters on the amps. When I see a constent 10 to 20 watts with peeks at around 150 I know that I'm at around 104 dB in my room.
For me, I am there. There will be no more tweaking of the speakers. The sound is to my taste and one that I have been seeking for many years. Amps may be another story, because I have never tried tubes.
The Q-man is back! I glad to see that you didn"t give up.
My Khorns and LaScala have been perfected to my taste as well.
To me "in your face" is not a matter of volume (my maximum is around 90dB with an average listening level of 78dB), but rather where you are positioned in the theater. Khorns using ss amps make the image seem like you are in the front row. This is fine for those that want to be in the front row. I prefer sitting half way back in the orchestral section where you can hear the subtleties of sound details, decay, and nuances that can be obtained only from tubes.
-
I use the K-Horn base horns, and for the midrange I use the Altec 311-90 horns and the Altec 290-16K drivers. The tweeters are the JBL 2404-H models. A custom network was designed for these speakers. I experimented with a number of midrange horns and drivers before making my final desision to use the ones mentioned above. The results are a much smoother, warmer, cleaner and open sounding top end. The harshness & ringing sound of the stock Klipschorn is gone.
I use 10 channels of solid state McIntosh power amps. 2) MC202 two channel power amps with 200 watts per channel. 1) MC206 six channel power amp with 200 watts per channel. The MC202 sounds nicer then the six channel power amp. I tried lesser power McIntosh amps 80 to 120 watts per channel, but at high volume listening levels the power guard circuits would light up telling me that I was clipping the amps. This occurred with bass heavy material.
The McIntosh amps give me a warmer sound on top and tighter & louder bass then what I tried before. I never heard any Mark Levinson amps.
I sit back about 18' from the mains and center channel. The rears are about 10' behind me, and the side surrounds are about 8' from me and slightly behind.
I gave someone a demo about a year ago, and one of his comments was this. " The sound is right here." As he held his hand 1' in front of his face. This statement to me doesn't mean that the sound is harsh.
My McIntosh dealer & Frank at Audio Classics both tell me that I should move up to the MC252 or 352 amps, not because I need more power, but because the sound improves again with these amps. I want to try this someday.
Q-Man, It seems that we are on the same wave length. I am also using the JBL 2404 tweeter with the Khorn bass. However, my approach to the midrange is a little different. I'm using the standard Khorn midrange driver with Al Klappenberger's crossovers and wooden horns to get much smoother, non ringing, three dimensional results. You may want to check out his website. alkeng.com and look for Klipsch upgrades. The problem is that ss amps don't have the feeling of a "live performance" that tubes have.
I listened to the MC-402 400 watts per channel ss amp and was impressed as far as ss amps go, but it did not have that "tube" sound of warmth, clarity, and the feelig of "you are there". I'm planning on biamping using the Mark Levinson 334 ss amp which has a rock solid bass along with a tube amp for the upper horns for warmth, clarity, and realism.
-
"CJ said that no dealer on the east coast has that amp in stock for auditioning. "
which amp are we taliking about?
CJ LP-70S. The same goes for the LP-140M.
-
I've heard Khorns with a MC 275. Personally, I think that is plenty of power for Khorns. Even for a big room.
I'd try one of the tube amps you have picked out for a spell, before considering bi-amping.
Good point about biamping, however, I got this idea from a tech at Klipsch who does this with his own personal equipment. Headquarters for CJ is on the other side of the DC beltway from where I live and they no longer have a setup for listening to their equipment. Because of the economy, CJ said that no dealer on the east coast has that amp in stock for auditioning. The McIntosh dealers in this area said the same thing about their amps. I guess I'll have to ride out the depression before I can hear any of these amps.
-
I've heard that tubes make a big improvement by softening the image. If so, which brand and model should be used? What about Mcintosh transistor amps with a transformer output stage? I hear that they produce a tube-like image as well.
Getting back to the main question, I would like to add that I have narrowed the search of the tube amp to the following three: Conrad Johnson LP 70S, McIntosh MC 275, and McIntosh MC2102. At present I'm planning on biamping the K-horn bass with the Mark Levinson 334 ss amp while one of the tube amps will be used to power the upper two horns. In this way I can take advantage of the best of both ss and tube amps. Which tube amp would you recommend for the upper frequency horns?
-
Check with the Monster cable website, or a monster cable dealer. After you give them all of the pertenent information needed for their formula, they will give you the length and grade of HDMI cable that you need. Nothing more, and nothing less.
-
All horns, even very good ones -- are "in your face". Tubes will "soften" the presentation -- but they will still sound like horns.
I have the flexibility of moving the upper two horns relative to the bass unit. I'm thinking about moving the upper horns to the sides so they will not be " in my face" as much. However, question still remains: which tube amplifier will do the best job of softening the image?
-
a Mcintosh amp or any amp with a multiple tap autofomer would add quite a bit of flexibility, see attached.
The sound levels of all drivers have been adjusted and are as good as they could be. Al's crossover has transformers for that purpose.
-
Did you change the mid range horn?
I'm using Al's wooden mid range horn which disperses the sound beautifully. I'm also using his universal crossover for another big improvement.
-
I am presently using Mark Levinson 334's with my K-horns. While the image is sharp, clear, and full, it is also has an "in-your-face" problem which makes the listening experience fatiguing. I have made the ALK upgrades, so I have done all that can be done with the speakers. The problem now is what can I do about the amplifier. I've heard that tubes make a big improvement by softening the image. If so, which brand and model should be used? What about Mcintosh transistor amps with a transformer output stage? I hear that they produce a tube-like image as well. Thanks for your advice.
Cornwall acting as Khorn without folded horn.
in Technical/Restorations
Posted
There is something else that I forgot to mention. I do have one spare LaScala bass box with woofer driver. Would it be possible to run the two upper rear horns and upper bass range from the Cornwall in stereo and the LaScala bass box below the cutoff point in mono since this this range is omnidirectional? If yes then the question still remains: what should the crossover point be separating the upper bass range of the Cornwall and the lower bass range of the one LaScala?