Marathon Man

Boa12, yeah I know. I have not changed it yet. It was just a thought. I might set the fronts and the center back to small now that I have the center below the screen. I only set it to the large setting trying to make the thing sound better when it was up high. I will play around with it and go with whatever sounds best. Thanks man. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-22-2002 at 06:56 PM

J, I have a seperate two channel system. the only music I listen to in my theater is 5.1 material.. DTS, or DD concerts etc.. I would not be putting them in corners just turning them straight. That should make the room feel larger don't ya think? ------------------ MM

gotcha, I guess I could set the mains to large, cancel the lp on the sub, then set the crossover on the ref-30. This way I get full range to my large speakers, LFE to the sub, and my small settings which are only for two side in walls would be crossed at whatever I decide. Best of both worlds. Good point. I have the sub lp engaged, and have the ref-30 crossed at 75 Hz. I can flip that around as mentioned above, and not miss any LFE. I did not even stop to think that the subs lp would effect theh LFE, but I guess thats just common sense. Oh well Im getting old what can I say. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-22-2002 at 04:50 PM

Boa12, Dos'nt the subwoofer ultra setting cancel that? Im not sure I was planning to play with that tonight. ------------------ MM

Re: front speakers, Toe in or straight ahead? what is your opinion? I currently toe the fronts into the main listening position for a tighter sound stage, but I have been thinking about positioning the speakers more straight ahead. This should not be a problem with K-horns due to the degree of angel on the horn. See Im from the old school before multi channel sound was available. Well thats not totally true. There once was a myth of a 4 track recording called quad but thats a different story. Anyway in two channel stereo it was said its best to toe the speakers into the listening position to create the right imaging on vocals, but what about home theater with its 5.1 surround? With the use of a center channel that nails the vocals to the center would the sound stage sound more real if the speakers were not toed in? Im sure that it would give you a more airy sound, and make your room feel larger. I want to try it but like you I have spent a lot of time setting my front speakers to what I think is perfect, and Im lazy and don't want to tape their outline to the floor so when I move them back they can be close to where they were. So what do you think? Turn em out or leave em in? ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-22-2002 at 03:55 PM

Boa12, I know what you mean. The last thing I wanted was something else on the floor. I really want to hide all my gear speakers and all, and only have the TV showing. Sometimes when you step back and look at the room it looks like just so much stuff to watch a movie or listen to a cd. Hopefully I will be getting a projector and screen at least im starting to work on my wife with that idea anyway. That will make things look much more tidy. Back to what I was saying. The last thing I wanted was something else on the floor, but after hearing over and over again that the ideal place for the center was under the screen I had to try it. Once I heard the diffrence I had to make it work. One other thing I did, and you should try this especially with the C7, of which Im sure you have either rf-5's or rf-7's to match. Set the main and the center to large. Leave the crossover on the ref-30 to default, then use the crossover on your sub to blend the crossover point. You may have to play with the slope to get it just right. I found that to make a difference as well even with the center on top of the TV. Out the window with the THX specs I say . I have all this time run all my speakers small. I am finding out that I have been missing the boat. ------------------ MM

Ed, You are right. Thats the way I did it, and I can't get over the difference. Im really happy about that because I was wondering why my center just did not sound the way I thought it should. I could not put my finger on it. Now I know exactlly what was missing. Thanks for the input. ------------------ MM

Boa12, Yep. I tried it and wow what a difference. By turning te sub around and pointing the PR into the corner made a huge difference. The sub is very localized with the PR aimed out into the room. Once I turned it around I put my spl meter on it before making any volume adjustments and it droped about 10 db simply because now the sound is going away from the sitting position. This allowed me to add more volume to the sub, and push it further into the corner, to get the spl back up to around 80 db. Im getting much better bass response, and the localization is gone. Much much better. Another mod that I made this weekend was taking my center channel off the top of my RPJ TV, and putting it on a stand in front of the TV right below he screen. Now the imaging is so much better. It sounds as if the dialog on movies is comming from dead center of the TV screen, and is much more seamless with my mains. Not sure why, maybe it has something to do with the releation of the tweeters in the center with the mains. Oh well Im sure someone can add some clarity to that. Playing dts music titles like Steely Dan Gaucho is un-believable, its like listening to it for the first time. I have always heard that the center sitting on top of the TV aiming down in the listening position was a no no, but I did not think it would make that huge of a difference putting it below the screen in front. Just thought I would share that, but Im sure that most people have found that out already. Im a little slow to implement change . ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-22-2002 at 03:13 PM

Thanks Manuel. I agree. ------------------ MM

Boa12, Yup, can't wait. I will pick up the Jl next week and order the SVS. I am going to try and contact someone at SVS to see what they recommend in my room. Not at all familure with their prodoct. I think I want to use a mono block to drive it, but don't know if I want to spend that kinda money yet. I have a extra channel on the 7260 that I may use first and see how it (the SVS) sounds. Hey how much do you know about passive radiator sub designs? I wonder about something. I wonder if I will get better positioning with the RSW if I turn it around and aim the PR into the corner vs the powered driver. Whatcha think? ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 09:03 PM

Ed, LOL! you came with it that time. And with that I will concede. I except your explanation as it is the best that I have heard thus far instead of... "its a myth" because as we know myths and ledgends are build on a foundation of truth. I am not a physics professor. I just beleive that in a room smaller than the sound wave the characteristics of the wave have to be altered, and if that is the case it makes one think how much does this effect home theater... maybe not much, but it was interesting. If you beleive that you hear something just because someone tells you, you do, you have no sense of the truth. When it comes to home theater and home audio manufactures play a games with consumers and try to fudge specs to make products look good and make you think you are hearing something your not, and I aint going so quietly. I just want the truth. This has nothing to do with any specific product so lets not go down that path, but we all know that dealers most of which are very good and very helpful, and honest, but there are some that will tell you anything to sell you their product, and the sad thing is that most of these lies are backed up with fudged spec sheets from manaufactures. Anyway that brings me full circle with the reason I opened this thread in the first place. Im auditioning subs. I have looked at a few, and I think I have made a decision. I am going to go with the JL lab 900 in my music listening room, and I am going to add the SVS Ultra to my HT room to be out front with the RSW-15 in the rear. Ok SVS this is your chance to make me happy, because I never ever buy anything without hearing first, but with amost a billion subs sold that many people can't be wrong (or could they) just playing, just playing.... I really want to a strong bottom octave in my theater, and SVS sounds like its going to be the thing I need. Phew! Tom (TV) drop me an email and sell me a sub please. By the way TV it was your headphone logic that really made me second guess myself, so your to blame for all of this. Just kidding Good job. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 05:33 PM

thats a good point. No doubt that as the source generates the 20 Hz sound preasure wave that the air will compress and move. The vibrating driveer causes displacement which compresses the air thus causes the preasure wave thus causes sound. Im not debating that you will hear something. My stance is based solely on the fact that a 20 Hz frequency or any frequency is derived by the size of the full cycle of the wave. If the wave cannot unfold fully then you don't have a true 20 Hz frequency. This is my understanding, and I may be incorrect, but I have yet to hear an arguement that contradicts this. I did not say you don't hear any sound, of course you do, but whatfrequency are you hearing is my concern. Look at it this way. If you hear a car that is playing music that is producing sound waves across the entire audible frequency range 20 Hz to 20 Khz. Lets say this car is 500 feet away you will hear the lower octives first without hearing the upper frequencies. You know what Im talking about boom boom hear comes this car. The closer this car gets to you the lower frequecies start to fade and is replaeced by the higher frequencies. This is not because the sound wave from the lower freqs are moving faster, its because they are much larger. As the car passes you the reverse happens. Have you ever gotten a call from your nieghbor about your tweeters are knocking pickers off his wall? No he calls you and tells you to turn down the bass becasue he does not even hear the higher frequencys because they are not large enough to make it to his house. This has to be the same effect when sitting in a room where the room is smaller than the sound wave is large. At least thats the way I understand it. Good stuff. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 04:26 PM

Ed, Before we can appreciate sound, waves in the air reach the outer ear or auricle (pinna) which in lower animals contributes to the localization of the origin of the sound. The sound waves then reach the tympanic membrane. The membrane vibrate and the vibration is transmitted to the inner ear by mean of the three small bones, malleus (hammer), anvil and stirrup. The vibration causes the stirrup to act as a piston which by displacement of a small and thin membrane on the oval window of the cochlea displaces the endolymphatic content of the cochlea duct. Displacement makes the portion of the membrane where hair cells rest to undulate in conjunction with another membrane on top of the hair cells, making the hair cells transduce the mechanical energy into neural stimulation. From the hair cells of the inner ear, the neural stimulus is transmitted by the afferent cochlear nerve fibers to the brain stem; and from there to the various stations along the brain center up to the cortex where speech and sound are finally decoded. . Your right, and if you did have a 34' ear drum then you will be a very funny looking person . There is no doubt that most human ears can hear 20 Hz sound unless you have hearing damage. The debate is what happens to a sound wave that is larger than the room the sound is originated in such in the case of 20 Hz sound in a say a 22' X 15' room. Do you really hear that sound at 20 Hz? My opinion is that you cannot, but with opposition to my statement a few threads up (which is a good thing if Im incorrect) im wondering if I have been right about this. So we are trying to find out the truth. ------------------ MM

LOL! I saw that on HTF Tom. lets just see how it plays out. You might be right. I really would like to get a definitive answer tho.. either case its very important information to have a correct understanding on. ------------------ MM

TV, I agree with feel the preasure from a 20 Hz or infrasound frequency (below 20 Hz), but actually hearing this at 20 Hz sitting 15 feet away is what i don't beleive. The way I understand it is that if the wave is larger than the room in which you are sitting in the wave is compressed (made smaller)and/or gets absorbed into the walls which if this is true then this would constitute a different frequency. Im sure that we are in agreement that the higher the frequency the tighter the wave thus the theory. It makes sense to me, but I am going to do some further research on the matter. I am going to also get some feedback from the bunch on the hometheater board. That is a pretty technical bunch and It would be interesting to see how they feel about the subject as well. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 09:44 AM

"True,so many lunatic myths float online,I guess then in my small HT room I dont hear 20Hz,its my imagination.Sad story" My belief in this did not come from some conversation on some internet chat room. It came from engineers who have designed recording studios for more than 20 years, which has also been substantiated by other pyhsics majors that I have spoken with about the subject as well as reading that I have done on the subject. I don't consider that to be a "lunatic myth". However being that Im not a physics professor I am willing to give you the BOTD. Please explain yourself. If its a myth then dispell the myth with fact on how you hear a true 20 Hz sound wave sitting 15 feet away from the source. In the mean time I will research the issue myself further. If you can do that maybe we can all learn something. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-20-2002 at 09:40 AM

Ok, why don't you fill us in on just how it works. Im not being sarcastic, and Im sorry if Im coming off that way, but if Im wrong I would like to know so I can have it straight in my mind.. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-19-2002 at 11:08 PM

You should use the y adapter to feed the line level in left and right. however the sub will play fine connecting to either left or right. Use of the y may cause the sub to wake up faster if you use the auto on feature, and thats debateable, but I doubt that you will hear a audible difference using either or. The sub out on the receiver, pre/pro etc.. sends all low frequency under the crossover point, and lfe to the subwoofer not left and right channel information. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-19-2002 at 06:28 PM

Ray, Thanks for the input. I was able to find a review or two on the Storm III and as you stated the suggestion was to run it with the high level inputs vs the line level inputs, and the reason is so that you can have uniformity in sounds from the same amp that drives the main speakers. At least thats what I got out of it. I did not make it over to listen to the Rel today as I planned, because I went and listened to a JL Lab sub.. the 900 I think. WOW what a fantastic sounding subwoofer. very transparent, very fast, and accurate. The JL Lab has a frequency response of 28-120 Hz, but the bass extension was out of this world. You pointed out that the Rel did not play that loud down low, but when you think about it thats ok. If you understand anything about low frequency sound waves you will know that you never will really hear a true 20 Hz sound wave unless you are at least 30 feet away from the sub because the wave is so huge. I think what people confuse for 20 Hz sound is actually trumped up 30 Hz frequency due to the compression in the room at 15 feet away which is the sitting position of most peoples home theater. Im sure I will get some debate on that, but thats the way it is. at 15 feet away you are only going to hear about 30 Hz with anything below that being absorbed in the room. Im looking at the Rel because Im after more accurte, and fast bass resonse. Thanks for the reply. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-19-2002 at 05:06 PM

Does anyone have any opinion on the Rel Storm III? I am supposed to go listen to one tomorrow, but im curious if anyone has heard the sub or had any experience with it. I can't seem to find any independent reviews on the product. ------------------ MM

B12, It sounds like you have been to Hotlanta before. Amen on the pepsi. I grew up in the mid west and Pepsi was all I knew prior to coming here. I do know where I can hear some bellas, but not in buckhead tho. Not many audio dealers there. More clothes and furniture, etc.. I talked to someone last night that knows who has a floor model HGS. I am going to check it out today. I will most likely take dougdrakes advice and check out the hometheather forum to see if I can find someone in Atlanta who will let me listen to the SVS. I should have something to tell tonight. ------------------ MM

B12 maybe things have changed since the last time I was at my klipsch dealer and they are getting more in. I purchased my RSW's back in January. Im sure if the demand is there it would make sense for them to have them available. Eventhough Atlanta is a fairly large town, it can be a tricky market for some products. ------------------ MM

Dougdrake, Thanks, I will check it out. Wow... Kevin it looks like we stired the pot a bit, but its conversatioins like this that really add value. Jim, Thanks for taking the time to inject your explanation. One thing on the RSW-15. In the Atlanta market anyway the autherized dealers that carry Klipsh don't stock the RSW-15, and none had a floor model demo, which obviously makes it difficult for people to audition it. I am finding that this is also the case with a lot of the higher end subs. This is unfortunate because people are amlost forced to make purchases based on reviews, opinions, and manufacture specs. That is not the way to purchase any home audio product I don't care how good of a reputation the product has. It maybe a good idea to recommend to the Klipsch marketing team to make more of the RSW-15's available to your dealers as so they can be heard, and not just heard about. This way audiophiles can see what a great sounding sub it really is. Boa12, I did not get a chance to list to the velo today, but hopefully tomorrow. I think I have narrowed down the replacement of the RSW-12 to i.e. SVS, HGS-18, or another RSW-15. If I can't find either of the other two to listen to prior to purchasing I will go with what I know sounds good in my room which will be a second RSW-15. ------------------ MM This message has been edited by Marathon Man on 04-17-2002 at 11:15 PM

B12, I know the sub rocks. I have a friend that has one, but he lives in California so I have not heard it in his theater. I am going to try and find one to audition today. I will let you know what I think of it, and if I like it and can find one for 1.5k I will most likely buy it. ------------------ MM

B12, Good tip. I am going to try and give it a listen. I know where I can purchase one, but I just hope that they have a demo available for me to listen to. Im not really looking for a sub that will do 20 Hz at 110 db. I like you do want good clean bass quality however, and this may be the sub to replace the RSW-12. Kinda pricy tho.. Well if it sounds nice I may give it a go. Worst case I get it home and don't like it I can just return it if I purchase it locally. Hey man thanks for the input. Its always a pleasure. I will let you know what I decide to do. ------------------ MM