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Sprogk

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    Look what the cat dragged in..

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    I didn't know what that was but definitely heard of the KG-4's, they look like there in great shape.:emotion-21: Happy Birthday to you ! :emotion-19:
     
    And tell the wife well done, not many wives would do that. 


    Thanks! Yes she drove 5hours today to get them. (I had to work). Very grateful she did that for me.

    They show their age but all original drivers and sound really good. One passive has a tiny tear so I will be on the look out for one or is there a good way to repair?


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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Actual!...Hey! I didn't make fun of your Bob Dylan did I? 🤣
    Ok. Here you go try this on for size for "actual" music. We're talking bass here and I'll go slow...
    Oh and at NO time will the following two recordings hurt your speakers. It's mainly bass guitar and drums. A little ting ting but that's it. Not jarring screech or blasting tweeters. So have fun turn it up. 
     
    Drum stop, No good by Peter Smith. 
    The bass guitar is amazing. Gets down low.
    https://play.google.com/music/m/Trsgq37wcj7nc5jdhbrifec536q?t=Drums_Stop_No_Good_-_Steve_Smith
     
    Peter White Hit the road Jack nice...
    Turn it up! 
    https://play.google.com/music/m/Txrd4i4j37zu7ymuhjeic3u3224?t=Hit_the_Road_Jack_-_Peter_White
     
     
    Here is not "actual" music but made by a band of monkeys...minus the rap & Nobel prize. 
    Let go deeper into house/jazz club mix. Bass here.....20 seconds into the tune. The bass hit and keeps on hitting. Jazz, bass, horns hey life is good. No sissy "jazz" here!
    https://play.google.com/music/m/Tytvwpnmrmv76axyrckeesaobhi?t=Nothin_But_The_Blues_Original_Mix_-_SoDown
    That's it you get the idea. Bell's are capable of bass if you have the power.
     
    A bonus. A tiny bit of bass but the focus is on a beautiful, beautiful female vocalist. If I didn't know better she's using a tube microphone.  
    Katie Melua. Sigh...This song REALLY shines on horns. 
     
    https://play.google.com/music/m/Tcrodlygfmhcphnf2vg5csjntxu?t=Piece_By_Piece_-_Katie_Melua
     
    Cheers. 


    Will try them all for sure.
    I have lots of power ...Luxman 590axii


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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Then I'd recommend another horn-loaded sub. There are several DIY versions around.  If you're thinking about tapped horn (TH) designs, just be sure that the particular design that you select has no nulls in its response up through 80 Hz.  Otherwise the TH designs will be much more space efficient.  A conventional front-loaded horn (like the various Fitzmaurice designs) will generally sound very good, even up at higher frequencies. 
     
    Chris


    Interesting link thank you.
    Any experience with Danley? TH50? Or two TH112’s?


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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    In that space--even with 9' high ceilings--you'll need a fair amount of absorption around Khorns, and almost as much around the Belles.  The Khorns, Belles, La Scalas, etc. have an interesting bit of extra acoustic energy that comes from the midrange horn in the vertical direction from ~350-1800 Hz that you need to absorb, otherwise you'll have very tinny/strident sounding loudspeakers.  More absorption is needed...a fair bit more with Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers.  Jubilees and JuBelles/JubScalas (using the K-402 horn on top) don't need this extra absorption, but it doesn't hurt to have it anyway.
     
    I strongly recommend fairly substantial carpet around the Belles--out to about 6-8 feet from the midrange horn mouths. 
     
    Two corner-located bass traps that are double thickness Owens-Corning 703 fiberglass panels across two room corners or along a floor-wall intersection.  The closer to the speakers that the bass traps are, the more effective they are.  Mid-bass boom and muddy sound are the symptoms of the need for bass traps, and concrete walls don't absorb anything like drywall does in most rooms. 
     
    Chris


    I lot of technical info here. I am going to have to fly some of the forum guys over to help me after I have the final speaker location [emoji16]

    Thus far the direction to go is to get the walls/ceiling treated and get a decent sub or two. 1502 is a bit smaller from what I understand (which will fit through my doors) but I don’t think I can order one?




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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

     
    Two Klipschorns or Jubilees in the corners, and a Belle for the center would work nicely - that’s a massive space you’re trying to fill. 
     
    95% of music won’t require subs, but if you do movies - then you’ll need a couple. 


    Its just for music. Klipschorns & sub would be great

    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    You know, I keep hearing over & over that the Bell's lack bass. I've never had that problem hooked up to my Marantz 2500. It positively SLAMS my house. My wife comments that it sounds like the club. One caveat. It depends on the music. If the recording is some 60's rock(apologies to die hard oldies rock fans) then for the most part the bass is not emphasized as much as it is on today's music. I should ask how much bass are you looking for? Not all bass is created equal. 
    If I put on house, EDM, Dub step music it'll down right shake the house. I mean damn, it'll shake the house!  He'll, even the mid horns I can feel the vibration coming through. So I don't know what type of music people are listening too but there is no lack of bass with the Bell's. Even with "delicate" jazz recodings with double bass instruments such as on Lee Rittenour Six string theory cd (btw AWESOME CD if you are a guitar fan)some of the double bass is awesome and bass guitar with Stanley Clark is perfect. Maybe people are having their eq flat? I have mine one notch to the right which seems to feed enough bass. 
    Oh and solid state only please. 


    I had my Belle’s in a small room and the sound was absolutely amazing. Loved it...but new house so trying to find their new spot


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    • Like 1

    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

     
    Yeah, I can’t imagine a more terrible setup. 
     
    The Belle Klipsch will never be able to “pound your chest”, that is just not that speaker’s forte. 
     
    Klipschorns can, but within limits. You could also stack LaScalas. 
     
    If that hole is your only option for listening, then get some treatments on the walls and floor, toe them in, and sit on the edge of that area. 
     
    You can also adjust the crossover to dial that midrange back to stop the earbleed at the volume levels I have a feeling you’re listening at.  


    I have options to move them. I just need to figure out where everything will go.

    I do love deep bass in any music. I already priced 1802 but I want to ensure that the right direction to move. I have dialed the mid back a bit but room need work.

    I need some Khorns in my basement with a 1802 or 1502 but that’s dreaming.(and lots of sound treatment)



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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    I love the sound of Belle's. As stated, not "lacking" bass, just lacking the deep bass. Your challenge is to figure out placement prior to finishing the area which is a nightmare. My advice is turn it down and listen to them. That will lessen the "harshness" that the room is creating. Keep them on the dollies and move them around to find a good spot. Probably not in that alcove for sure and possibly toed in a touch (especially if near a side wall). Where you have them currently is reflecting off the walls and exaggerating the mid and high end which makes the low end sound weak, and if you turn it up to get more bass, you will make it worse. Once you find a good spot, drop them off the casters and that will help the low end a bit more. The 1802 would probably overpower the Belles. I use two small 25 hz tapped horns to supplement my Belles but in a small room. Now if you are considering Khorns + Belles + 1802, well you would have quite a system there. If you are anywhere near me, I can fill your basement with sound deadening junk stuff to give you better acoustics. I will need to leave it there for a few years, but it should help the sound.


    1802 and Khorns would be great...but financially I can probably only get one or the other. Since the 1802 will over power the Belle’s....Which tapped horn subs do you have?

    The reason I kept the speakers on those dollies was because I was moving them around last night. I knew dollies affected the sound but didn’t realize it affected it that much. Anyway my last spot where the picture was taken was completely wrong.(thanks the the peeps here) I will need to experiment more.

    I had them against that 55ft wall before The picture and acoustically that sucked too....but then again basement is empty. Still they sounded small in that huge space while against the 55ft wall...& I want awesome sound down there!

    I will be looking out for wallnut khorns while I decide/move the Belle’s around to figure out where is best.

    No one made any comments about Jubilee’s.....where’s the jub fans? Do you guys think the jub’s will need a sub too?

    Thanks again for all the info




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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Basement ceilings are often too low, but that is a solvable problem.  How high is your ceiling?  If lower than 8 feet, put a small amount of absorbent material (thicker is better) on the part of the ceiling that is a first reflection point as seen from the Main Listening Position.  Sit at the MLP and have someone hold a flat, light weight mirror FLAT against the ceiling.  Be careful!  If you can see the speaker in the mirror, that's the spot to put the absorber.  Repeat for each speaker, but don't rinse.  Some people would suggest doing the same for the FRPs on the side walls, also.  Others would not.
     
    You do need to break up and/or absorb the reflections over most of those walls, and put carpeting or area rugs on the floor.  Use absorbers and diffusers (see acoustical catalogs, perhaps make them yourself -- search this forum and others, under DIY absorbers / diffusors), use book shelves with lots of books, pottery, art objects, and maybe some absorbers behind the books or vases, here and there.  What you want is variety, complexity, and decent visual aesthetics (or esthetics, if you are modern), and getting rid of slap back echo, or too much echo, period, while not making the room too acoustically dead. 
     
    A good subwoofer coming in around 60 Hz, as [mention=43]JohnA[/mention] said, would be good.  My Belle (named Michelle) is a flush mounted center channel and goes down to below 60 Hz, where there is actually a little peak.  The flush mounting may be responsible for the bass extending that far.  The Belle will be cleaner than most subs as far down as it goes, so run a test disk (or REW) and see how far yours go, in their environment (location matters a lot), and experiment with putting the crossover there.  Your room is so big that you might have room for a DIY horn sub, which should be as clean as the Belles.  Once again, search all forums.
     
    You might ask [mention=8736]artto[/mention] what he recommends.  He has a less than 8 foot ceiling, and at least at one time had some absorbers on the ceiling, sparingly used.  If you go to his page, the pot bellied things all over his walls are Bonner diffusers.  There are instructions on how to build them somewhere in Paul Klipsch's Dope form Hope (available here).
     
    Don't put a coffee table in front of the listening couch (reflection).
     
    If you have a Marantz or Dennon AVR (but I doubt it, since you are posting in 2 channel), you probably have Audyssey.  Audyssey or some other room correction device can be good AFTER you get the room as good as possible with acoustical treatments.
     
    Please keep  us posted. 
     
     


    I have Luxman integrated amp so no Audyssey. Bare basement but is 9ft high.

    All very informative information. Will keep you guys posted but it’s going to take a lot of time to get where I need to be.

    Im glad to get this type of response from this forum because I’m pretty new with this and most stuff that was mentioned wasn’t obvious to me.



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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    If you do the K-horns along the top wall, be careful that furnace room does not block the sound. K-Horns shoot 45 deg into a room and the right channel might hit the corner of the furnace room.


    I’ll do some measurements thanks again for all the valuable info


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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Ugh!!!  First, I think staircases can be fatal for any attempted placement, and nothing will work .  Second, speakers should be IN the largest part of the room, and aimed AT the smaller areas.  You've done exactly the opposite -- and next to the disastrous stairway too boot.  I would try them along the "55 foot" wall, aimed toward the opposite wall, i.e., toward the furnace room, stairwell, and their former position.  This puts the "listening position" in the more center of that big room and lets the sound expand into it, rather than struggling to be free.
     
    K-horns would be more logical, with the adjacent unimpaired corners, except the room is so huge.  It might need a center channel, mid-way along that 55' wall, and that might be an ideal place to put one, or even both, Belles -- maybe.  Try it first if you can.  That combo could look very attractive, given the Belles' complementary design.  I suspect that staircase will use up all the bass you can give it.
     
    Larry
     
     



    I actually like that idea Larry. Two Khorns opposite corners of the 55ft wall and Belle’s centers! I like!

    But what about that sump pump in the left corner of that wall? I can off coarse build that sump into a closet or little room to creat a corner. But then Jubilees would also work if I have two corners! I always thought that 55ft corners are way to far apart for corner speakers....

    would I still need a sub?



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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Personally, I would put the belles here: (Speakers in blue, listening position in teal)
     
    image.thumb.png.9b297e04a99bd57b376ecab9c795850f.png
     
    This way you have a good symmetry at your listening position for channel balance and you can more easily treat the walls for reflections. 


    Forgot to mention water meter is in that corner....


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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    First thing:  Belle Klipsch (and La Scalas) do NOT lack bass.  They lack deep bass.  In a good room, you might notice  the low E of a Double Bass is a little weak and maybe not.  There is little output below that. 
     
    OTOH, as has been stated, you have them in the worst possible space.  The concrete walls reflect the mids and highs so much and in such a chaotic way that they cannot sound better than crap.  When the room is finished, furnished and dead enough that hand claps don't produce a noticeable slap-back, your room is ready. 
     
    I will recommend they should be about as far apart as you sit from them and flat against the wall.  Start with them at least 4 feet from any corner.  You may toe them toward you if you need more highs.  Two good subs not placed symmetrically with respect to the floor plan (not exactly in the middle of opposite walls, for instance) and crossed around 60 Hz should give you good low bass.  A good sub is -3 dB at 20 Hz or less and should be able to hit 115+ dB at 1m. 


    Thanks. I will move them to the opposite wall which is a big open wall (50ft ).

    The basements will get couches rugs and tables eventually but I will have to probably add acoustic foam to help. The plan is to leave it mostly open plan. Maybe The basement isn’t a good spot for my setup. I really wanted khorns but have no good spot for them anyway.

    Thanks for all the help. I have work to do down there.


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    Belle’s placement/lack of bass

    in 2-Channel Home Audio

    Posted

    Hi Guys

     

    I have 2000sqf basement. Mostly empty for now.

     

    My Belle’s lack the punch in the chest that I want to feel at high volumes. And to add to that they sound harsh. (I know the sound os bouncing all over the place...but that’s a different issue to be addressed later)

     

    I know the Belle’s are know for their lack in bass so my question is simple. (Not really)

     

    I have few options here...

    1. Get 1802 sub for the. Belle’s

    2. Get Khorns (by themselves)

    3. Get one or two smaller Danley’s for the Belle’s (like two TH112’s)

     

    How will I ever know what will be the best? I just don’t know. Im not sure the Khorns will enough bass either?

     

    With the Belle’s along my 55ft wall (they were spaced about 15ft) the sweet spot is tiny. Just didn’t sound right. Even with a 1802 the sound didn’t fill the area very well. Bass was mostly absent.

     

    Here is a pic of their current placement. Sounds the best there so far. All the other walls are wide open with no corners available making them sound tinny and small.

     

    cb94e0539bcad1716447197050aa49f2.jpg

     

     

     

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