robertkjr3d
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Posts posted by robertkjr3d
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The end of the story... Well nearly the end.
I purchased a MiniDSP UMIK-1 Calibration USB Mic... This software works along with REW (Room EQ Wizard) and (Equalizer APO).
You take the room measurements and the response from the mic that REW gives you. (At a few different listening positions...) It will give you filters, (You average these) which you can feed into 'Equalizer APO'. And this flattens the response. Then Walla!! Woohoo. It sounds so much better. Then you can retest with the mic, to test the response. And since 97.999% of all the audio I ever listen to comes through the computer anyway. I'm good. The 'Equalizer APO' is already pre-programmed to work with outputs from 'Voicemeeter' that I've had running on my system for many years.Obviously the Onkyo-AVR was supposed to do this stuff itself with its AccuEQ, but I knew it was not up to Snuff. And it does not have you move the mic around to any other listening positions. Since this was only a few days ago, that I ran this. I haven't gotten around to using this calibration technique with my Center-Channel, or my rears yet. But the results with the Klipsch front channels with the sub are amazing!
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On 7/12/2019 at 9:59 AM, PrestonTom said:
Dean, I am afraid you are absolutely correct. I sincerely hope the guy does not spend a huge amount of money on electronics trying to "solve" this problem.
To the OP, I am not being disrespectful so don't take it that way.
Your presenting complaint is ambiguous. What exactly is the problem? Your chase has been very disorganized. It has ranged from FLAC to KODDI adjustments to MP3. Unfortunately having an EQ device is not helping here. It is simply enabling you go back and forth and back again while you adjust by ear. I believe that will never come to a conclusion since the path is disorganized. You mention your original speakers, but we have no idea what they were (panels, horns etc). Agin you need to be specific about the problems and which are major and which are minor.
My friendly suggestion is that you need to keep it simple and have a clear goal in mind. Set the speakers up and listen to them. Do not mess with room EQ (at this point) or KODI volume controls or MP3s etc. Keep the signal path simple and get the speaker placement right (including toe-in, distance from walls, angle relative to the chair etc). This seems simple but it actually is not. It is tedious (use the same material over and over), but most importantly be systematic and manipulate just one variable at a time before chasing down interactions. Do not bounce around and certainly do not start spending money on electronics. Don't even get started on the EQing yet. Simply get the fundamentals right to begin with and have a clear goal. After that we can collectively help on room equalization (the EQing will start by having a measurable goal and the tweaking by ear will not come until much later and should be used sparingly).
I hope you take this advice in the spirit is given (helpful and not disrespectful).
Good luck,
-Tom
This does sound a bit harsh, that I can never be happy. I am very picky, and I have very sensitive ears. I'm not one to go.... "they sound great!" and move on. But eventually I stop tweaking and accept a "standard". I finally did with my last setup before I switched AVRs and before I bought the Klipsch speakers. I worked on that setup for a long time, until I ""upgraded""... Think of this as going from Windows 7 to 10. At first everybody hates Win-10, then eventually, its pretty cool right? Conversely, there is bound to be bugs until I settle down.
I was playing around with 'Speaker placement' last night. I moved them much closer together, than I had previously. The advantage here, is they are farther from (the wall on one side, and a book-shelf, and a cabinet on the other). I believe this changed the sound configuration. My ears were pleased. I was not able to play at high-volume, because the wife was asleep.Your suggestion of turning off the EQing and stuff. I get that point. "One propeller, Sir?" from Star Trek LAFORGE: "sometimes you have to turn it all off."
I left the Calibration that the Onkyo found. I did mess with listening with the 'manual-EQ' off. It still tends to sound better to my ears with the manual EQ on. with some of the Data I previously found with the SPL Meter. But I probably will have to run that again. Now that the speakers are moved.Room equalization: The problem I was mentioning is that, I didn't trust my Onkyo-AVR with AccuEQ to do proper room-equalization. But at the moment I'm still with it. I think it would be easier with Audyssey, and systems that still have Audyssey. Now that I've changed the speaker placement again, I should probably run AccuEQ again. But that would be nerve-racking. What if it changes how everything sounds?
On the up-side. I listened to Alessia Cara's 'Scars to your beautiful' song... and there is a whole layer to that song that you can hear with these Klipsch, that I could never define before. WOW! It sounds so cool.
FLAC to KODI adjustments?: Someone asked what I play with the speakers. I only use KODI to play recorded Television. Not for music. I use FLAC files for Multi-channel Audio, mostly taken from Blu-rays. I pointed out that I had a problem in my KODI setup, that was causing an audio issue (you guys didn't really need to know that, your right). Although with my previous AVR and speaker-setup (that is before Klipsch) I was non-the-wiser on that issue. Is it possible, that these Klipsch, not only bring out good in sound, but also more of the bad? Maybe. I also use Windows-Itunes to play standard 256-MP3s.
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1 hour ago, moray james said:
You did not do what I suggested. What you did is not the same as what I suggested. Never the less I do not believe that your new Klipsch speakers are the cause of your issues. You have basically suggested that your speakers are a disaster if this in fact the case you need to sell your Klipsch and purchase some speakers which you like. Next time around it might benefit you to listen before you buy.
I believe what I'm saying is... While I'm not done tweeking my system. At least not for the next year likely. But I am happy with my Klipsch purchase. At least almost happy.
Would I have been happier had I built the Elusive 1099s? That I originally looked into. I studied and studied, and contacted the guy waiting for them to be available. Then saw the deal on the Klipsch. I might have been happier with the 1099s. But of course I also factored in how long it would take to build them, and to make them look good.
The real "disaster" in my system was the upgrade in the AVR. From the TX-SR606 to the TX-NR686. Getting things to Calibrate in AccuEQ is so difficult compared to Audyssey. Still not wanting to go backward. I pressed onward.
Drastic suggestions:
I think the best drastic suggestion. (As opposed to stuffing stuff over the speakers)... Is to change the AVR yet again to a different brand. I would go with a Marantz. As others pointed out, certain AVRs are brighter than others.I'm not going to get rid of the speakers.
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14 hours ago, moray james said:
you could fashion a plug for the central conical part of the horn out of 25 ppi (pours per inch) open cell foam, this will also lower distortions within the horn. I am going to guess that the problem actually lies with your other up stream gear. You probably won't like this but that is what I would be looking to.
I played with this. I took thin-ish insulation foam. And cut it to the appropriate size. I put some foam in front of the tweeters. I was not happy. I took them out.
I went back to continuing to 'Calibrate', 'Calibrate', 'Calibrate'... with the AccuEQ. Finally one stuck that I'm happier with... I kept the SPL levels what I found. (or the EQ settings what I found)..
I'm now using an SPL Meter on my Center channel and finding it is a mess. In between frequencies that I can adjust Up and down. I can do nothing about it on my EQ. I would need a 32 band. It is not Klipsch. Perhaps one day I will buy a Klipsch center.
I've yet to test my Rears. They are good-old-Vintage Pioneers. -
On 7/4/2019 at 9:24 AM, robert_kc said:
The quality of recordings is extremely important. Provenance of the recording is critical. Modern recordings that were captured and mastered in hi-res (24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered in a hi-res format (e.g., Blu-ray, SACD, 24bit/192kHz download) will generally deliver the best audio quality. Poor quality recordings, and recordings in low-bit rate formats, can sound harsh.
If you decide to try a new amp, I suggest that you audition tube amps. I greatly prefer tube amps with my Klipsch speakers. 6L6GC sound great with RF-7II. 7591 sound good with my Palladium. (I have no experience with RP-8000f.) FWIW, I like vintage amps. I experience no listener fatigue, and no harsh brightness, when listening to modern high-quality hi-res recordings of classical music via my Klipsch speakers and the right tube amp.
Tone controls can be very useful IME. Simply turning down the treble might solve the problem.
Is your system stereo? 2.1 (i.e., stereo with subwoofer)? 5.1?
If stereo, there are a few universal disc players that have analog stereo outputs that can connect via red & white RCA connections to a traditional hi-fi amp. (Traditional analog line-level RCA connections to the amp. HDMI to the HDTV.)
You don’t need an AVR (or pre-processor) to play multi-channel digital music recordings (e.g., SACD, DSD download, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Blu-ray audio/video, Ultra HD Blu-ray). An Oppo universal player (e.g. UDP-205, BDP-105, or BDP-95) will decode any digital recording. The Oppo UDP-205 has built-in "pre-amp" functionality (i.e., analog RCA line-level connections), including selectable downmixing (e.g., 7.1, 5.1, 5.0, 2.1, 2.0), bass management (i.e., configurable subwoofer crossover and RCA line-level connection), trim levels for each channel, and remote volume control. Additionally, you can simply not connect the rear channels and have 3.0 or 3.1, or combine the rear channels for 4.0 or 4.1. IME, the combination of an Oppo universal player, vintage tube amps (I own a bunch), and Klipsch speakers can sound excellent.
Bottom line, some people are satisfied with an AVR and Klipsch speakers, but some people aren't. Synergy between the amp and speakers is important.
Where do you live? A forum member near you might be willing to let you hear different equipment combinations.
Now we are getting down to some philosophy here...
Some information you should know: My system is 5.1. Before purchasing the 'Front Klipsch' speakers. I had recently upgraded my AVR from the Onkyo TX-SR606 to the TX-NR686. I was happy-go-lucky with the SR606 and my home-theater, for many years. My original front-speakers were nearly-self made, I put a lot of work-into them. The SR606 with Audyssey was able to calibrate and EQ them. I had seen a deal for the NR686, and snapped it up. The NR686 stayed in a bedroom for a couple of months before I hooked it up. Finally I did. I could never get to calibrate those speakers. So I bought the Klipsch. Does it sound better? Than my original system? From of my memory.... of a few months ago. There are sounds that I've never heard before, that come from those speakers. For instance: When listening to "Elle Goulding's Anything Could Happen", it sounds like pure distortion sometimes. Than I realize... that's actually in the song. It's actually kinda sound, that I never realized was there. Electronic sounds come out so clear. But sometimes too laser defined. What I was finding was that there was a drop at 2000hz. I had to compensate for that, even after the AVR Accueq calibration.
Quality of recordings: I do have Bluray cuts that I keep. I am a multi-channel audio man. My favorite is the Baku tract from Star Trek: Insurrection IX. If the system is perfect you can hear the slip-up when someone taps there flute or something against something metal in the recording. But its ever so faint in a quiet spot.
But even bad-quality-recordings should sound pretty good on good speakers. Right? At least pound for pound.
I think some of the best tests are 2CH -- Highly commercial compressed MP3s. What I mean is: It's easy to make say 'Peter, Paul, and Mary' sound good. Because they do not use that many frequencies. It is simple music. But take a recording by 'Ariana Grande' Like 'One Last Time' you must be able to hear her voice correctly. When my Klipsch speakers were supressing the 2000hz.. they were not. Or Lana Del Rey Music. Very complicated music for speakers to reproduce .... Ask yourself how is the stereo seperation sound in these newer tracks?
Like if your a white-van-speaker sales-man. I would know exactly what to play, because some music, is not hard for speakers, and/or AVRs to sound fine/good. Others are more difficult. -
Well here are a few things that happened yesterday. Happiness is coming soon:
I run KODI and one thing that was hurting me was I was using 'Volume Amplification'. I found 'Volume Amplification' was causing 'heavy bass' and 'heavy highs'. While watching recorded programs. Fixed.... I turned off '
My wife was out for while: And I ran the AccuEQ like 3 more times in 3 different positions. Finally it came up with Crossover numbers that were not out of whack, and I accepted it. I still changed them all to 80s. Then I tried another listen. I have recorded Multi-Channel music... FLAC files and WAVs. And just regular 2-CH MP3s in Itunes. And oooohh. Something sounded much better. I do not like much AVR processing, I use MULTCH mode. I'm still running the SPL'd EQ that I found from the other day. I find it sounds better with that on than off. I may take the time to ring that out again, in a few days when I have time. That is to SPL the frequencies again with the AccuEQ turned on, and see if it is truly flatter at the listening position.
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I'm not with the puppies now of course. But it does give me an idea to thicken the back of the 'Magnetic grille' just a tad with a mesh tapped to the back of it. Over the tweeter part of course. I might experiment with that. I might play with a SPL meter after that too. And see how they sound.
Just before I left for work this morning I did run the AcuEQ setup again. It will read differently no matter where in the room, I run it. I did it quickly, and have no idea, if it produced anything of value. I know it didn't read the crossover point for the Klipsch(s) well. It said they were 200hz. Which is as high as the setting goes. I turned them down to 80hz.It read my Rears and Center at 50... and I bumped those all up to 80hz. I have had it read the Klipsch at 50 before.
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29 minutes ago, Ceptorman said:
I believe there is a thread around here talking about taming the brightness on a pair of RF7s. They placed a crumbled up tissue in front of the tweeter, it somehow broke up the fatiguing frequencies.
I wonder what a different power source could do for you? Some receivers are just brighter than others, Marantz is known to sound good with Klipsch.
Crumpled up tissue... That sounds interesting, but a bit pedestrian. How would you get the crumple just right in both speakers. I thought of this in the past with another set of 'messy-play-designed' speakers I used to have. But that might be a interesting track of thinking. Some extra padding of some sort, other than the magnetic grill front.A new AVR...? A friend of mine also recommended Marantz. I hear-tell they still use Audyssey too, which was a better Calibration system. I may do this. But the cost of trying to sell mine, that it's too late to return, and buying the Marantz may be too much to 'sell to the wife...'. I may do it eventually.
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Carpeted floors... Curtained windows. Room is small. Those tweeters, spanking the ears is a known complaint. Of course, now after I purchase them. I thought I had done my research. But now I need to figure out how to mitigate the problem.
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I spent quite a bit of money on the RP-8000fs. And like many have complained with Klipsch speakers, they are too bright. I have really really good ears. Maybe they are designed for not so good ears.
I starting to play with a few things. I'm noticing ear-pain from long exposure. (a few weeks now with them...)I've started to investigate different speaker positions. I keep changing my AVRs Equalizer levels. I invested in a SPL meter to really find what they are producing.
On my cut-rate Onkyo AVR they have that new-fangled AcuEQ, that doesn't work very well. I will try it again, and maybe a few more times at different positions. So far, I've run it with the AcuEQ off. Only using the AcuEQ for distance and levels in the 5.1 system. It hasn't figured out Equalization correctly. When I did my SPL findings, for instance there was a quite a drop at 2000hz. Unfortunatly, with the 15band EQ, they give you 1.6 and 2.5. You can get close to touching that, but not exact. Then at 8000hz it was like boom pow! However on a 15band EQ it goes from 6.3k to 10k. So I tried just turning down the 'Treble'.I'm might investigate Extreme Toe-In... But the wife may not like that. I've tried toe-out (But that did not work in my space.... the sound goes into a dead-space, because the sound hits a ...well toe-out is usually not recommended anyway).
Before buying these I actually looked at building a nice set of speakers. I should have done that. These really don't sound much better than the ones they replaced, and they are causing pain.
Hz calibration ok?
in Home Theater
Posted · Edited by robertkjr3d
I second the comment about not being accurate. Your 'crossover' points look decent. As a matter of taste, some prefer to bump the numbers up on the front channels to allow more to roll onto the sub. Now whether it actually measured your 'Room-EQ' correctly is another story.
AccuEQ seems to be good at measuring 'Distances'. And possibly decent at setting 'levels' of the rear channels as opposed to your fronts. But for me it would always jam the LFE 'Sub' channel way higher than it should. So the sub will boom boom boom at points you don't want.
I finally used another method of 'Room-EQ' with a computer calibration mic.