[What receiver do I get?]

4 hours ago, glens said:

What I don't understand is it seems like you're saying you're going to spend $ (at least 500?) for a full-blown receiver, and $ (as much again, or more?) on a 5-channel amp that claims so much power but doesn't provide even as much specification as Yamaha did for the one you first mentioned, which was itself suspect in that regard.  I'd looked up your typo'd model receiver, and they listed their better specs better than did Yamaha.  I read two reviews from one site, though I don't recall if I checked (meant to) whether it was the same reviewer specifically, one of that "typo"'d model and one of the NAD 777.

 

I read the Denon review first and got a very favorable impression.  Then I read the NAD review and the guy really gushed over the amplifiers.  I use duckduckgo.com as a search engine, and both reviews were on their first pages.  When I get back inside after my tobacco treat I'll look them up and post the links.

 

I'm of the opinion that NAD is the poor (or at least frugal) man's high-end gear.  The only nit I can pick after 40 years is the volume controls could've held a better balance through their ranges.  But it's all digitally controlled now so that's a moot point, which leaves, oh, nothing.

 

I "had to" recently replace my 1980 NAD 40 WPC integrated amp.  I picked up a C338 full-warranty factory "refurbished" from Crutchfield for less than the C328 goes for.  I soon after got Forte IIIs.  The amp case has no ventilation and after a good long shower while running balls-out on the stereo, the case is hardly warmer than room temp.  Their class D implementations are phenomenal, and I have the lesser of the two "hybrid digital" amplifier schemes they use.

Yeah, I don't know what to believe from these websites anymore, one website claimed that the OSD amp weighed 55 pounds. And then rates each channel 150 watts at 8 ohm and 200 at 4 ohm. I knew its specs are too good to be true. I'll look more into NAD, thanks. 

[What receiver do I get?]

9 hours ago, Head_Unit said:

That's somewhat true, especially since the FTC many years ago declined to enforce any kind of specifications. So AVRs specify power into 2 channels driven, 8 ohms only.* From years of reading tests, they ALL droop their per-channel power as more and more channels are driven. Basically the power supplies are just not super strong. Continuing what someone pointed out earlier, from 100 watts to 150 is just like1 step of the volume control more, because our hearing is logarithmic. I consider all AVRs to have essentially the same power, and if you want more REAL power then you need something rated at least 300 watts continuous into FOUR ohms.*

 

Adding an external amp (a POWER amp, not that tube thing you linked) for say the front L/R means the AVRs power supply is not as strained and can deliver closer to rated power in the remaining channels since it won't droop as much. This is also true of adding a subwoofer, now the AVR is not strained by the low bass frequencies, which are the hardest for amplifiers. This is often NOT true for 2-channel equipment, which stupidly usually have no highpass filtering, even when they have a “subwoofer” output!

 

Here are "Head_Unit’s Rules Of Protection":
1) If when things start to sound distorted or odd you TURN IT DOWN, you are unlikely to ever break anything.
2) If you constantly "turn it up to 11" you will break something.
NOTE: size and power ratings of speakers and amp do not affect rules 1 and 2; there is NO need for "matching." Speaker specifications are 92% meaningless (and I say that as a loudspeaker engineer). Specs for amps are not thorough since they are measured into resistors for pragmatic reasons and speakers are not resistors at all.

*Amps' 4 ohm or even 2 ohm rating is the most meaningful even if your speakers are 8 ohms. Should be 20-20k Hz, distortion under 1% or it's baloney.

So in reality, is it even possible deliver 150 watts RMS to a speaker that can play at 150 watts continuously? 

[What receiver do I get?]

1 hour ago, The History Kid said:

You won't get 105 WPC x5 out of that AVR. Power ratings on AVRs are excessively overstated and have numerous caveats.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
 

Yeah, I noticed that their wattage ratings seem almost like a scam, only to attract attention, while they hide the true power. 

[What receiver do I get?]

5 hours ago, glens said:

That Denon unit looks to be a significant step up from your original choice.

I think I had a typo, I meant the 3500H. I couldn't find anything relevant to my setup from NAD, this amp is the one I was going for, OSD Audio XA5180 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B074415515/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=A2QGVVI9PYOV9V&psc=1 I think both of them together should be more than enough for my 5 channel setup. 

[What receiver do I get?]

5 hours ago, The History Kid said:

Adding an amp can in a roundabout way add power to the AVR.  Consider the following two examples:

 

Example 1:

AVR Power, 590 W Total Power

AVR Powers the front 3 channels

Amp powers the rear 4.

You're probably going to get somewhere between 55 and 100 WPC for the front 3 channels and whatever the amp power rating is for the rear 4.

 

Example 2:

Same AVR Power

AVR powers all 7 channels.

You're probably going to see something around 25 to 55 WPC for all 7 channels.

 

An outboard amp will guarantee you clean power, as long as it's a decent one.  It can take some of the excess load off the AVR too.  The more power you're deriving from the AVR, the less and less power it has to use. I'd say on average most AVR's with all channels driven run between 30 and 70 WPC and do not exceed that.  Adding an amp doesn't increase the overall power of the amp, but it can free up available power for the channels it is running, not to exceed it's own capacity.

What if I'm running 5 channels, but 105 watts per channel on the receiver and 120 watts from the amplifier, in that case is there really an advantage in running an amplifier? 

[What receiver do I get?]

4 hours ago, The History Kid said:

Good choice.  I am using a 4200 for my configuration - though I am using all outboard amplifiers right now.  It sounds like that's what you're working towards as well.  That 4500 has great expansions that should serve you well into the future.  It will put circles around any of those RX-V AVR's that's for sure.

Do you know if adding an AMP will add more power to the receiver, or will it simply divide the task of providing power to the speakers. So if I had a 105 WPC receiver and added a 120 WPC AMP, would that mean each channel now has up to 225 WTP? 

[What receiver do I get?]

On 4/18/2020 at 3:43 PM, The History Kid said:

I advise the OP to look elsewhere than the Yamaha RX-V line.  If you're set on Yamaha, you should look bare minimum at the RX-A Aventage lines.  The RX-V's have replaced most of the HTR line as the entry level Yamaha receivers and do not meet the same quality as the older RX-V models.  Make sure you look around for options on the RX-A's, they can be had for a decent price.

I took your advice and changed by amp to the Denon 4500H, I will be getting an OSD 5 Channel amp as well. 

[What receiver do I get?]

10 hours ago, glens said:

 

It looks like the unit you've selected will prove to be a fair value.  Apparently it'll make 90 Watts times 2 full-range cleanly.  You may find it somewhat lacking when you want to fill your whole house with sound while you're showering, cleaning, whatever.  Up to that point it ought to entirely satisfy you, for the money.

That's good enough for me then, I live on the second floor of an apartment building, luckily my surrounding neighbors also have home theater, so I won't be causing trouble. It sounds like it would be adequate for some movies and mainly rock/jazz listening. 

[What receiver do I get?]

20 hours ago, pbphoto said:

Be careful with that preamp - first of all, it's an integrated amp without home-theater bypass - this means you will have to set the volume knob to a set position and calibrate it with your Yamaha (i.e. it does not pass the L/R signal thru directly to the amp, bypassing its preamp section.)  Second, it has no other analog inputs other than the L/R pair coming from your AVR which limits any future two-channel listening that you might want to do without going thru your AVR (what if you want to hook up a turntable or a nice DAC for example.). Finally, it looks like a really cheap Chinese made POS.  I would pass.  Your RX-V685 is probably better - stick with that for now and add a real amp or integrated amp down the road.

Duly noted, I will look for a better pre amp. 

[What receiver do I get?]

I have decided to go with the receiver (Yamaha RX-V685)  https://tinyurl.com/yd63ppd8 and preamp (Rockville BluTube SG 70W) https://tinyurl.com/y8w3kdgy . Hopefully things will go well, thanks for all the help. 

[What receiver do I get?]

5 minutes ago, pbphoto said:

I think the RX-V685 would be a good option.

Thanks for helping me out. 

[What receiver do I get?]

5 hours ago, pbphoto said:

I would suggest starting out with an AVR that has multi-channel pre-outs because it keeps your options open and puts you into a decent class of AVR.  Manufacturers do not put multi-channel pre-outs on their lower quality AVRs.  Your speakers are super efficient so I don't think you need a ton of power to drive them - you might be very happy with just the AVR.  I would recommend looking at accessories4less for a used Yamaha RX-A1080 or something similar.  Then maybe in the future you could invest in a 2-channel integrated amp with HT-bypass to drive the L/R speakers, removing the bulk the of the load from the AVR.

In that case, wouldn't Yamaha RX-V685 be a good option? It has 90 watts per channel, and has pre-out for front and subs. 

[What receiver do I get?]

9 hours ago, glens said:

I couldn't get out of the "rich text" mode after pasting that in above.  Kept wanting to add new formatted bullet points...

 

So that amp (the lowest model # AVR at nadelectronics.com) will make 420 Watts total over all its channels, full-range, at 0.05% distortion.   I'd bet that's pretty close to the nearly 90 degree upward "knee" in the distortion/power graph.  I don't know, but if that includes driving an LFE channel and you've got a self-powered sub, seems you'd still have about 420 Watts total for however many channels to divvy up (the capacity of the power supply(s) has got to be the limiting factor).  If you're only using 3.1 or 5.1 you'd easily have 100 full-range-simultaneously Watts available for the two main channels.  With most any Klipsch gear that would be fairly formidable for most rooms.

 

I don't know how the NAD AVR stuff compares to that from Denon, et al, but I'd wager it's no slouch, and frankly would be where I'd look first anyway.  I've had NAD gear running (when anything was) since about '80.

 

 

 

So what would you recommend me to get to power these speakers? I'm still lost here. I have people saying a lower model Yamaha would do just fine, while others are saying a higher model rated at 125 watts per channel is bare minimum. 

[What receiver do I get?]

9 hours ago, pbphoto said:

AVR technology changes faster than my underwear.  Buy an AVR that has the features and channels and room correction DSP that meets your needs.  One feature I would recommend is pre-outs for all channels.  This usually means you get a better quality AVR and it keeps open the option to add an external amp down the road.  I've had good luck with Yamaha AVRs over the years - very good quality - but any of the major Japanese brands are fine.

So, what you're saying is that I should prioritize features when looking for a good receiver, and leave the power handling to a dedicated amplifier. This idea is new to me, do you have any suggestions of a receiver and amp combo for my setup? Also, good to hear you like things clean. 

[What receiver do I get?]

9 hours ago, Sancho Panza said:

Welcome, Mark, to the Forums!
 

I’d consider that Yamaha, or the current Pioneer Elite 7.2 model. VSXLX104.

 

Should be enough power.

Interesting, so I don't actually need speakers that can output 150 watts per channel? If the Yamaha RX-V683BL are good enough for me, then that would save me alot of time and money. I was told by others that apparently, something like the Denon X4400H is the bare minimum if I want to get decent quality out of my Klipsch setup. What would I really be losing if I don't go for the much more expensive Denon receiver and choose the Yamahas? 

[What receiver do I get?]

Hey, my name is Mark and I'm having trouble buying my first surround system. I'm thinking of a 5.1 setup at first, but might one day upgrade to 7.2. The speakers that are currently in my consideration are the Klipsch RP-8000f and Klipsch RP-504c, I might pair that up with a BIC America F12 and an RP-500m to complete my setup. Does anyone have any suggestions? I'm not that new to speakers, I understand connections and setups at a decent level. Where I'm struggling is what receiver to buy. At first I was considering the Yamaha RX-V683BL, but I later learned that this would be too weak to drive my setup. Now I know I need to spend over a grand on the receiver unit alone. With that said, any suggestions for a receiver? I apparently need close to 150 watts per channel to drive these speakers adequately, is that true?