GlennyC
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Posts posted by GlennyC
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58 minutes ago, geoff. said:
I have found, almost ironically, the higher the sensitivity of the speaker the lower the volume at which I become engaged with the music.
On a quiet night with my La Scalas hovering just under 70db it always surprises me that I don’t feel the need to turn up the volume.
It’s weird you say that. When I AB tested my Heresy IIIs against the La Scala AL5s, I had to up the gain via a control knob (on my Accuphase) for the Heresys to have an equal listening experience. The Heresys being less sensitive needed more power to have the same output as the La Scalas. When people test the higher sensitivity speakers they will be louder with the same input power. Does this trick some listeners I wonder? It is an old stereo salesperson trick to up the volume on the more expensive speakers they are trying to upsell to. This then makes the higher end speakers appear to sound better. 🤷♂️
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Based on the feedback here I am shopping for Chorus IIs just to see what that project might cost. Maybe $1400 for original speakers plus rebuilt crossovers and drivers ($600?). Something to consider. I think Chorus IIs are about as big as the wife could handle (even though I pay all the bills I am considerate of WAF).
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So, while I did experience a sonic difference with the new La Scalas compared to the Heresy III setup I have, I did not think the marginal difference was worth the cost (over $13,000 for the AL5s) and huge size. But thank you for pointing out that it is not just the bass but the midrange that needs to be considered. I am wondering… is there a midrange driver upgrade to the Heresy III speakers that is lowish in cost and simple to accomplish? Would crossovers need to be upgraded too? Would be nice if dropping in new midrange drivers could solve this.
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Hello all. I have Heresy III speakers being driven by a B&K Reference 50 preamp and an Accuphase A30 amplifier. I also have a Sunfire True powered subwoofer with dual 12” woofers. This is not a question but a comment. I would like to see what people think. I have AB tested my set up against new La Scalas and find my Heresys to be quite satisfying. My premise is that all the additional size and expense of the large heritage speakers is to reproduce bass frequencies. I have great tweeters and midranges in my Heresys. Plus I have solved the low range frequency reproduction problems with an excellent powered subwoofer. There is no need for anything bigger main speaker wise at all. Save your money. I point to the new Jubilee as proof. They include dual 12” powered subwoofers. Save your money plus your wife/live in domestic partner will love you for not having to decorate around monsters.
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8 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:
14 gauge? Oh my, that’s the big problem right there!
I’ll get right on it!
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HP EliteDesk 800 G2 PC running Tidal Master Quality Software -> Mytek USB Cable -> iFi iPurifier2 USB filter -> Mytek Liberty DAC -> TRS/XLR Cables ->
B&K Refetence 50 Preamplifier (Direct Mode) -> XLR Cables -> Accuphase A-30 Amplifier -> 14 gauge speaker wire -> Klipsch La Scala AL5s
(Note: I also have a Behringer DEQ2496 between the Preamp and Amp that I can turn off to make it just a pass through. In addition on the subwoofer out of my Preamp, I have a Klipsch R-112SW subwoofer)
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Hate on me. Now that I’ve got my AL5s working properly, I ran an A/B test with a switch box to test for listening differences between the AL5s and my Heresy IIIs. The AL5s are more efficient than the Heresy IIIs therefore the AL5s are louder when switching to them. However, luckily I have a gain switch on my amplifier that will boost output in 6 dB increments. So, when I switch to the Heresy IIIs, I also bump the amplifier output by 6 dB. Switch to the AL5s, drop the amp by 6 dB. This gives a great comparison. Results... man for the extra $13,000 the differences are minimal. (I have a powered subwoofer to augment the low end and can’t hear above 10,000 Hz) I have to believe the differences between a La Scala II and a La Scala AL5 are even much more so minimal (to me). La Scala II is $5000 used. I paid $13,000 with tax for the AL5s. I have time to return the AL5s still. Decision to follow.
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This is the same graph as above with 1/3 smoothing instead of 1/12. I can see why Chris A recommends 1/6 or finer. 1/3 hides a lot of warts. Thanks to all for the great guidance. I am happy I was able to absorb a portion of it because I will be able to enhance my listening experience substantially now. Plus I was able to fix my tweeter based on the guidance. Great people on this forum!!!
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So, now 3 different PEQ frequencies - all below 300 Hz to match the Left and Right channels...
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Why not PEQ at two different frequencies for an even better match between the speakers? Right channel PEQ at 90 Hz +2.5 and at 160 Hz -4.5. Both Left and Right channels on one graph. DEQ2496 magic!!
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PEQ Right Channel Only at 160 Hz minus 2.5 Gain looks even better.
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PEQ Right Channel Only at 160 Hz minus 4.5 Gain.
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So, I just remeasured after checking all my connections and being meticulous about positioning the microphone in the same relative position in front of each speaker. New results look much better as far as differences between speakers goes. Positioned the microphone 16 inches in front of each speaker. I still have that Right channel peak at 160 Hz. But I will be able to PEQ that out of there. Will try that now.
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So I opened up my La Scala after getting to OK from tech support at Klipsch. Wire was loose to the tweeter. Easy peasy fix. Ten minutes at most. I ran the REW measurements as follows....
Red line is Right speaker. Green line is Left speaker.
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Thank you Chris A. I will do as you suggest and PEQ unlinked not GEQ linked. I just realized that when I get my Sunfire True Signature subwoofer back from repair I will be able to not use the preamplifier subwoofer out (not using the preamplifier crossover at all). I can send the full range of frequencies right and left channels to the DEQ2496 from the preamp and then from the DEQ2496 to the Sunfire, use the crossover in the Sunfire and return the left and right back to the amplifier. In this way I will be able to correct from about 17 Hz to 300 Hz. The only problem is I have been using XLR balanced connections between the preamplifier and the DEQ2496 and the amplifier. Between the Sunfire and the Amplifier would have to be RCA unbalanced. I will have to test how it sounds but in my experience the XLR is noticeably (significantly) better.
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3 hours ago, PrestonTom said:
I am afraid the suggestions are being lost.
Measurement should be close (1 meter or less). This is what the speakers is putting out (mostly). First thing is to get that right. Once accomplished then maybe you want to measure at the listener's position (I said maybe). If you measure there, then you are getting the output of the speaker interacting with the room. Do you make adjustments above this frequency region (that is a loaded question)?
There is a spectral region where you might want to make adjustments (relatively low frequencies) and there is a spectral region region where you do not want to make adjustments (relatively higher frequencies & you should leave it alone). Where is this dividing line (low vs high)? The answer is more complicated but it is typically around 300 to 500 Hz and I am being deliberately vague. Check in Toole's book and he will give you a better understanding.
IOW, correct "room issues" at the low frequencies but not the highs.
Good luck,
-Tom
Ok I get it. Only measure close to the speaker (1 meter or less) and not with both speakers playing. After measuring only correct below 300 Hz (to be safe). Apply corrections then remeasure. Does the DEQ2496 let you correct each channel independently? I don’t think I have been doing that. So, by hand I will average the correction* for both channels, apply and remeasure (using REW). I have been doing AUTOEQ with pink noise with the Behringer microphone (uncalibrated) connected to the DEQ2496 in the listening position. This adjusts and turns on the GEQ (in the frequency range from 60 to 17,000 Hz) for both speakers. I should set the range to 60 to 300 Hz. I am not going below 60 Hz because the DEQ2496 sits between my preamp and amp and my preamp is sending all frequencies below 55Hz to the subwoofer out. The (stereo) amp only gets 55 Hz and above.
* I have a second DEQ2496. Maybe use one for each channel then I don’t have to average the corrections?
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4 minutes ago, Chris A said:
One metre distance...not 3 metres...on axis centered top to bottom...
When I did each individual speaker I was at 1 meter. But when I do L + R, I put the mic at listening position.
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5 minutes ago, Chris A said:
Nevermind...
Does that mean I'm a hopeless case? I do have to thank you Chris A for pushing me to measure each AL5 separately. That's the only way I would have found the tweeter problem in my right speaker.
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Latest plot... Microphone set up...
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I had the AL5s about 10 feet (12 feet center to center) apart and the microphone was 12 feet back from the center point between the two speakers. I also had my subwoofer on. It kicks in below 55 Hz. And the AL5s were not angled to point the higher frequency drivers at the microphone. The speakers were straight not angled (pointed perpendicular to the line between them). So I was doing a lot of things wrong. I will remeasure with the subwoofer off and speakers angled at the microphone.
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I'll start with the dealer Crutchfield tech support tomorrow when they open. They may give me the tech support number at Klipsch. If it is as simple at removing the back panel of the high frequency box and then jiggling a wire, I'm down to do that. Better that than sending the high frequency box back to Klipsch.
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1 minute ago, Coytee said:
These guys are like, miles above me....but could it be as simple as a loose wire either on the driver or in the crossover?
Yes... it could have loosened in shipping. But it is internal to the high frequency box of that speaker. The midrange in that box is working. Not the tweeter though.
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Ok, so I measured each speaker independently with a Behringer microphone 1 meter from the center of the high frequency portion of the La Scala AL5 pair.
BLUE LINE - Left channel (speaker) of my AL5 pair.
GREEN LINE - Right channel (speaker) of my AL5 pair.
PURPLE LINE - Switched in my Heresy III for the Right speaker of my AL5 pair - all else stayed the same just the wires at the back of the speaker were moved from the AL5 to the Heresy III - then re-ran the right channel test.
Looks like the crossover or the tweeter is bad on my Right speaker of my AL5 pair!!!
Heresy vs Other High End Heritage Klipsch
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Yes. I was thinking that the larger sized Heritage speakers were only designed that way to reproduce a lower frequency bass signal, but I have come to realize from the responses to this post that the larger sized enclosure also allows for a larger midrange horn. I am luck because when I test the frequency response (Room EQ Wizard) of my set up with my Heresys and my powered sub I do get a nice flat curve above my ability hear on the high end and deep into the low end. And the result is very pleasing to me without the additional size, weight and expense. A hot rodded Chorus II set might be examined by me in the near future though just to see.