Fast1

On my Denon,direct mode is still stereo sound with the sub but no processing of the signal to the speakers so there is not bass or treble adjustment. I started using it on some things to try and get away from some hiss that I get. My bros' Outlaw is HORRIBLE with hiss! HIs Paradigms will not bring it out but my 7s sure will. I think improving my pre amp should be a first step but I also should consider upgrade on the DVD. I believe I have things setup right now to use the DACs in the receiver with better results. I know I need to make some changes but I think that pre amp is hurting me the most right now. Problem is the rest of my system is powered from the receiver for now and I need those other 3 channels. I have debated whether to get a separate pre/pro and get amps or use a receiver for my theater needs. Just not sure right now on anything. My ears know what they want to hear but my pocket book can only get there so fast.....

I will have to let you guys know that my Rotel RB1080 came to me at a super bargainbecause it had a huge dent in the back and required me to remove one of the channel PCBs and point to point wire a couple things from damage. With this in mind, I am not above modding this amp to get what I want. Of course there would be some research involved here but I am game. My crossover mods certainly helped. Wish it was that easy. I just went and listened to the RFs again (work from home) and I seem to constantly switch from stereo and direct modes on the receiver. One is straight through and one goes through some DSP. I would consider the sound to be a bit grainy and harsh and lacks definition at lower volumes. Just like what a big speaker sounds like when it is not working. I would not expect this from the efficiency of the Klipsch though. To me, there is still much more treble missing at the top of the range and not sure why. In direct mode at low levels, they sound a little muffled.

I learned back in my teens that it is better to have more power on smaller speakers than the other way around. You get better quality sound and more head room out of the deal. People said I was nuts to put that much power to an RF7 but they love it and I have never heard them clip. I have run my bros' Paradigms here on my Rotel and they were noticeably warmer and more laid back. I would say more pleasing at low levels. Now when you get to cranking them, my Klipsches blew them right out the door and down the street. I find my self wanting MORE clarity so I switch off the "direct mode" on the receiver and bump up the treble. This makes the sound thin. I think I am getting close but need to try some other components. For all I know, my damn DVD player is doing all of this!!! Most people that hear my 7s say it is the best they have ever heard and super clear but I think there is much more potential in them. There are a few songs I play on them that sound SOOO nice. Dirty guitar however just does NOT work! Blow you right out of the room... One thing is for sure, we have a LONG way to go on room adjustments. I really would like to find a computer program or better understand room modes and nodes. It might be just as good to create sample frequencies and measure with a db meter to see how flat the room really is. I am guessing very few really are in which either room adjustments or EQ should be used.... I have never done that but 15yrs ago, you always just adjusted the EQ to your listening pref.

How about "in Wichita"!!! Please shoot me a PM. I would be most interested to hear some other Klipsches get it on. Tubed up I take it?? I am very excited.

It was my understanding the RF7s with some tweaks could compete close to the Lascala, Khorns, etc?? Keep in mind I am running a big sub to anchor the bass side of things. I think the mids to upper bass range is where I am always wanting more. Sound is still just thin to me. I will also admit that when I tried my brothers Outlaw preamp, there was a notable increase in performance. Warmer sound. Still a bit weak at lower volumes. My brother runs Paradigm speakers and I will say they are much less fatiguing that my Klipsches. I need to find a way to smooth these Klipsches out or look at going a different direction. I like to play things very loud at times so that is a consideration.

Well, some are asking about my agenda here and I really do not have one. All in all, I am just not happy with the performance of my RF7s yet. I added performance resistors and caps to the crossovers, using the Rotel RB1080 which is near 400wpc, but a cheaper Denon 2804 or something. I realize that preamp is hurting me but I would really like to compare these RFs to tube. Problem I have is the system seems to straight get it on at high levels but just sounds missing at lower (normal) levels. Always find my self turning it up just to get the sound I am looking for. Make no mistake, I WANT power thus my reason for chosing the Rotel. I realize there are better rigs out there but.... I run a Velodyne HGS18 to bring more bass in. My house requires it because I cannot get the sub to a corner, just a wall. What I am trying to do is learn more about the components involved in the sound creation process so I can better understand where I might be able to either tweak my components how I want or possibly build my own tube amp as a project. We have plenty of electronics experience but none with specifically creating amps. I realize that not only must one understand the components involved in the build, but also understand what qualities of these components can be heard.. Like film and foil caps over electrolytic. Big difference in sound stage yet both serve the same function. Just to validate, I am a mfg/mech engineer and my twin bro is an electrical engineer. Sometimes we tackle odd challenges just for fun! PCB design, chassis construction, heat loss are not a biggy but understanding some of the components involved to take things to the next level are what confuse me. I have not shopped for tubes but I understand them to get damn expensve. My guitar amps seem to just keep going on the same tubes. The only way I can describe the sound is "laid back" and it does not seem to attack me in the face. I am not yet sure if this will be good or bad in my HT system. I am thinking if I have enough power with a tube system, it could do well. Just wish I had someone around my area with a high end tube to try.

I am seeking some very technically minded people to chat about differences in sound quality, dbs, and power ratings. I have not dived into this much yet but in my past stufy, I find that SS amps are uniquely rated (lie about it). Maybe there is special "sound watt" used but when comparing input fusing and wire size. When looking at tubes, their rating for power is much lower. 50-120wpc seems about right. I run a Rotel RB1080 on my RF-7s at 400wpc. I have to wonder the difference in dbs from a comparable tube amp. I am not just wanting to compare tube on the Klipsch but all speakers. Sure seems like tube is way more expensive but can really give some nice sound. My experience with tube is only on guitar amps and I would not touch a SS guitar amp now! Has someone compared tube with SS directly for dbs, accuracy, THD, etc?? Who the heck makes a decent priced tube amp?? They all seem about 3K and up for mono blocks or around 5K for a stereo amp.

Don, that is precisely how we have looked at this issue for years! Seems odd to spend hundreds on cabling that last few feet but there is several hundered feet in the house that is not shielded. What gives. I can tell you I have a small noise in my house and I bought a Monster conditioner and regulator and neither touched the noise. I never really chased the problem even though I think it is a house grounding issue. I have never seen a direct comparison of shielded and non-shielded cable to "see" a difference.

Inventor, I was wondering what all the plug number designations are coming from? What are they? Where would a guy buy good shielded cable for this application? When I move, I may want to just buy some bulk cord and build (probably 5-7 cords) some quality cords. I do not have a high rezzy TV yet so my power conditions do not show me any gain yet but I will get there. Is this shielding sleeve the cheapest route for shielded cables? Would sure seem some of the large wire wholesale houses should have shielded cable for commercial multi media applications. Last time we did a theatre, we ran PVC conduit for all speakers and no conduit for power wires. Do you see any issues in using PVC for signal wires?

Because I have not designed the room yet, dims and details are still pretty open. I will have to do some research as to how I should target the dims of the room. Soem people say square, some say longer than wide, some say wider than long, not sure. I was just wondering by adding the extra 2 speakers on the sides if this would help disguise the location of the speakers. We plan to move seating forward from the back speakers far enough to make the speakers blend better. Probably min of 3-5ft. I would like to put couches on the side walls but afraid sound will suffer there. The room is going to be designed with the family room look so however I put it together, it needs to function well for both theatre and family seating. Falcon, I would like to ask if you have tested modded RF7s against your RF83s? I have heard the 83s are more laid back and that is what my mods did so curious if there would still be an obvious difference. I really don't like how mine attack me at extreme volumes but I really think that is my junk receiver doing that. We plugged in an Outlaw preamp before and I want to say it fixed a LOT of my issues like thin sound in the mid and raspy treble at high gains. I will replace that receiver with something soon. Just not sure to get a 5000 series Denon or go to a preamp head. I would really to be able to play my mains at full range plus the sub. Mostly units will bring in a crossover for the mains without enough adjustibility.

Thanks for the help! Honestly, I am in no hurry to get a center. It will be the better part of a year before I can move in and would need the new speakers. I have heard the RF7 may not perform as well as an RC7 as a center. Not sure though. I am wondering if I should consider 7.1 surround for the larger space?? If so, I have no idea how to select speakers for that setup. It is my understanding that most all DVDs have 5 channel separation and the processor has to take that and further separate to 7ch so it may not be "all that". I have not heard a 7ch setup in a while though. Very nice to see some back to back testing. I kinda wondered if an RC7 wtih some mods would be about the same. The 64 sure look cool though!! I plan to hide all my speakers so that won't matter too much. I am running an RC3 right now. NOT very impressed. "sound in a box". Not very open.

Is it me or did traffic slow way down on this site? Surprised at the lack of replies on all threads here.

Even though I have heard great things about the Monster amps, I doubt I will ever buy one. (Monster, are you listening???) I have a voltage regulator and clean power unit. The AVS2000 has a buzz every now and then. 3yrs old, Monster will not service, replace, or sell parts for their units. Just sell you a new one. I already had the AVS replaced once because I bought it and it was "missing" the processor chip in it. They were nice enough to replace the unit for me. I was shocked. However, these courtesies will only go so far. I just want to but parts for my machines...... Call up Rotel and tell them you need a new Toroidal transformer, they will ship it to you. SOLD....

I just added my setup to my sig so hopefully it pops up. I modded my Xovers in the 7s with high perform caps and resistors and also added the extra resistor to lay them back a bit. I am running an RC-3 right now for a center. I will be moving my goods to a new steel building where we are adding living area to. I will be adding a large theatre area there. Rooms size will be roughly 20x40. I am wanting to know first, what center might be better for the modded 7s? The RC64 or 7? If I got the 7, I planned to pull the xovers down and do them the same as my RFs. No idea on the 64 though. I am very open to other center ideas since room will not be an issue. I would spot a single RF7 if that was best but not sure. I also need some help on the surround setup. I was thinking of the RS-7s. I do not want anything floor standing in the back. ??? Regarding the room, The ceiling will be 9ft, concrete floors with carpet over it. I plan to have the back wall all glass with big double doors because the room will double as a family room and I want an open feel. I plan to install the glass at some strange angle to break up standing waves if possible. I planned to build the front corners of the room at a chamfer to hide the main speakers and subs in. Is there any software or other recommendations you guys would offer in this room setup? I am also looking to build a few wall and ceiling hung sound traps if needed . No round tubes for me thanks. I would also like to see what you guys think of my sub. I have a Velodyne HGS18. seems to blend well with my small setup now but I am considering running two of them. I also use the system for 2ch and it does go loud from time to time. That HGS has to work to keep up.

I guess the way I am understanding the voltage attenuator, you are wanting to half the input voltage to the amp? Or is this a separate variable rheostat? My concern is that I am able to use all of the volume out of the receiver so if I simply half the voltage, I will drop my output too. One of the things being done in car audio I think is to boost the voltage to help with noise. I will have to check. One of the other things that surprised me is how much mid range I am missing with the Denon!!! I think more because the crossover points and not able to full range the mains and run the sub. The xover is set on large and at 80hz. I am not sure if I can getting a cascading xover effect or just mismatch but with the Outlaw, the 7s woofers actually move! With the Denon, things are just sounding thin and light. Like I say, the Outlaw was well known for having noise problems so I guess now I need to test something else that is more silent. I would also like a better explanation of how the attenuator will repair this problem.

I notice in your sig that you have a couple HGS15s, are those what you are running with your horns? What is funny is the Incredibles is the same movie where I saw bottoming with my 18. You don't have kids do you? I am just curious why you selected the 15s instead of the 18s and if this is just what was available at the time? I am also curious what induced the servo failure on your sub or if this was just out of the blue? Do you remember what that price was to couple a new servo?

Yes, I was rather surprised the Outlaw has noise. I guess they were noted for this and there are some fixes for it. As far as the gain on the amp, there is none and I know where you are coming from on that. The volume range on the Denon spans the entire range of adjustment.

What the heck does that mean. Yeah, do you think I am serious about the program material or levels I facetiously mentioned?! FEW subs can keep up with the efficiency of the Heritage line and the HGS18 and DD18 series are some of the few. And if you take that with a "grain of salt", I can see why you are on a fishing expedition. Tell me about how 'technical' other forums are. ROFLMAO And as far as : I am surprised you didn't ask why they even have a volume control. Doesn't it follow by your logic that they are worthless and that it should be wired to run at maximum 100% of the time? You need to spend a few minutes learning about the concept of headroom and how a servo feedback circuit works as the above comments indicate that you do not have a clue! So you were able to bottom out the sub once upon a time. You're probably right. The entire line is faulty and the rest of us that are using them for more than just "explosions" just haven't realized that ours are fried. And with all due respect, its almost a shame to be using such a musical sub for movies and explosions. Yup, go with a non-servo sub and be amazed at how easily any of them are pushed to their excursion limits. But then you are also unable to get LF response below 40 Hz that doesn't "suck". Instead of looking at everyone else, it sounds like you need to look more closely at what you are doing while the rest of us should take the histrionics of this entire thread with an entire salt lick. I think you need to take your self to the corner in your "sound perfect" office and self medicate with some pisss off. My god, you criticize one for simply trying to learn. Please feel free to grab your angles and back into a door knob. The reason for my entire post was to find out "IF' there are any problems with the 18s that I need to be aware of. JA. The simple reference that I am looking to buy another should be enough to tell you I like the sub enough to buy another. My reference to the gain control indicates that I feel that if this sub cannot handle such high gains, it should not be in the control for protection purposes and YES that is NOT a DA comment though it was merely a joke. I am a senior engineer and your remarks about be incompetent are not needed. I am rarely shown up by a lippy AH with nothing nice to say. I grab new concepts like you grab your C%^* every morning. Find someone else to jack with. Your responses do not help anyone and are nothing but a waste of cyberspace.

Well I just tried my brothers' Outlaw 950 preamp and it is actually more noisy than my Denon. Speakers are silent with the Rotel on until I turn on the preamp. I even tried turning off the DVD player to make sure there was no noise from it causing this and it looks like I will be in search of a "quiet" processor. What do I need? I am considering a higher quality Denon but is there something else I should look at?

I was just using the 60hz as a reference. I was thinking that I might have room problems but I look it at a room volume vs sub comparison. Being around auto subs, I know that I am very happy with two 12s and a car a a fraction on the volume so it kinda makes sense that I just need to move MORE air. I am curious about this clunking noise your bro n law experiences. Is this at high volumes? Mine will only do it at very low hits and I don't think I can do it where the gain is right now. I kinda tuned around that problem. I would really like to know what that clunk is too.

I really wish I could say but I will be buying an SPL meter soon to help with all my questions. When I use test tones, I run the sub to where it just gets no louder so I am thinking that is just all it can do. Even at that, I would not say my house was going to fall down. 60HZ buzzes things pretty good but 30hz and down are there but not "holy sh**". If I knew I could get more without harming the speaker, I would sure do it but kinda seems like I am all maxed out or there are real problems with the speaker. When I talked to Velodyne, they said 1/2 way up is too much on the gain. That is when I asked why the h%%% do you have it on the amp if it should not be used?? I really figured, like my other Velodynes, that the servo would control the output and it just would not play any louder. Seems with this one, under serious excursions like an explosion in a movie, it popped and it popped loud enough that I thought I blew it up. Velodyne also just mentioned too that " when the servo fails you will know because it will will push and pull your driver until the motor is ripped apart when you just turn it on." great! Hope that things stays working. I was also asking about removing the servo control so the sub could crank more but they say it will not work that way by design. I have not looked at the speaker so I have no idea on that one.

I will kinda take your comments with a grain of salt because the entire reason for the thread was to "fish" for any problems with these subs before looking at another unit. I have no doubt there are plenty out there but if they are not getting "used" then that does not tell me much. We all know the Klipsch can get it on and needs good subs to keep up. I am just trying to determine if there are real problems or isolated cases.

what type of SPLs are you getting and what size room? I was kinda thinking another 18 might be easier for me but I will do what I must to get nice response in the 20hz area. How big are your drivers? How much power to feed them?

Per another post below, I was made aware that there might be some short comings with the big Velodyne 18s. Apparently, there are some noises that start showing up over time. The only bad experience I have had is popping at high gains. It has only happened a couple times and only on the first day I owned it. I called Velodyne and they said the amp is trying to overpower the driver and to drop the gain. I did so and have had zero problems since. I would really like to run it back up to make sure I am getting everything I can from the sub but afraid of that popping. It only happens on some very hard excursions in movies with nasty lows. Has anyone had any problems with the 18s? I may want to buy another to get the response where I want it but not sure if they are a good investment. The reason I want another is I am just not happy with the output of the sub. I have decent response above 40hz but below that, I personally think it sucks. I want to bring the other one in and run the Xover very low to help the 40 and down area. My mains are RF7s powered with a Rotel 1090. The 18 keeps up with them but works hard so I figure with two, they can be on cruise keeping up with the 7s. I think I am also fighting some room problems and will post some details later so maybe someone can help with the acoustics a bit. Room is about 14x32 with the mains and the sub centered on one of the long walls with 8ft ceilings. This IS the only way it can be configured so I have to make do.