im_leary

Folks, I would like to take this opportunity to thank Leok, Wolfram, and especially kh (Kelly?) for much thought provoking information. I believe, with their collective help, I have found several equally effective solutions. First, several points I have apparently not clarified adequately: To my knowledge, I have never heard an MC-7100 drive a set of Belles. It did drive my old K-horns, in my old house, in a room that was perfectly suited to the K-horns. In my new home, however, the only Klipsch speaker I tried was the CF-4 with dismal results. Since then, I have heard other McIntosh amps drive Belles in the dealers listening rooms. Perhaps the acoustics, music, or other components were wrong, but these amplifiers did not sound like the system I had, nor the one I was searching for. They definitely did not sound like my old MC-7100, running my old K-horns, in my old home. I suppose I was hoping to have someone tell me that the MC-7100 was unique in sound quality among the other McIntosh amplifiers. Instead, I heard many others tell me that it was simply representative of that era. I am not predisposed to dismissing tube technology. I am, however, dismissive of the tube amplifiers that I HAVE HEARD, prior to this past Friday. After listening to a number of Audio Research, Marantz and McIntosh tube amplifiers I was left with an unshakable mindset: these units are grossly over-priced, rated, and hyped. In the case of each and every one of THESE units, I could not find a single one that could not be surpassed, in almost every measure, by a cheaper and better solid-state amplifier (like a used Ayre V-3, which I recently heard in New York). The used Ayre cost only $1,750. The tube-dogs averaged $5,000 to $7,500. What would you think? I would like to thank Leok, Wolfram, and Kelly again. The things I have learned in the past two days have been a revelation. Specifically, I listened to a pair of Manley Snappers (using the balanced inputs), a pair of Manley MAHIs (in Triode and UL mode), and a pair of Joule-Electra Stargates, driving a pair of Belles, with MY C-35. What I learned is that any of these three amplifiers will do quite nicely. All three are beautifully clear, colorless, and more than adequately powerful. A pair of Belles never had it so good. I have also put to rest any doubts that the C-35 is up to the job. It worked like a trooper; both balanced and single-ended. Now, the only problem is deciding which one will do it best Very best regards to all, Lance

Kelly, Thank you for this well considered response. It is quite thought provoking. As it turned out, more by luck than design I assure you, the Rogue and/or the Manleys may be the solution. I will certainly keep everyone apprised of the results. Thanks Again and Best Regards, Lance

edster00, Thank you. Pending the outcome of my tube amplifier audition, I may avail myself of your kind offer. Many Thanks, LEO

Wolfram,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I appreciate the logic in your recommendation. It seems to make perfect sense that a large cone (with the attached dome and coil) simply cannot accelerate as quickly as the horn driver, not to mention the fact that the operating displacement of a horn driver is but a fraction of that of the cone-type speaker. The simple physics of the matter are: Horns can produce high sound pressure levels with minimal distortion, provided that the horns are well designed. I think that we can all agree that Klipschs horn speakers are very well designed, indeed. This, I feel, is a reasonable explanation as to why the CF-4 (and all of the RF series) simply do not reproduce the rapidly changing, but distinctly separate, notes of many classical scores. Case in point: Listen carefully to the first movement of Beethovens Concerto in D for violin. If you have a recording that features an accomplished violinist, such as Itzhak Perlman, you will hear that the introduction to the solo, although it sounds quite simple and elegant, is actually VERY complicated. If you listen to a live performance you will be impressed by the fact that Perlman nails every single note perfectly and SEPARATELY. Beethoven did not intend to have the entire passage slurred together! In a live performance, with Perlman playing, it is easy to hear each and every note, even though they are being done very rapidly. Now listen to the same music through a GOOD horn speaker, and again through a GOOD cone speaker. If you have ever tried this I have made my point. The cone simply has too much mass. The cone simply cannot change direction remotely as quickly as the horn driver. Now back to amplifiers I am happy to say that I have had an offer to host an in-home audition of several highly rated tube amplifiers. I have been offered the use of a Rogue Eighty-Eight Magnum power amplifier and a pair of Manley MAHIs. Now we will see hear that is, what some really good tube stuff can do. Thanks Again, Lance

Leok, Another MC-7100 is a great idea... if I can find another good one. Problem is, everyone else seems to have realized that blue meters do not make a terrific amplifier. To-date, I have not been able to find one that doesnt look like it has spent the last ten years doing wedding DJ service.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Besides, the new solid-state units seem to have so much promise. Is anyone using a Monarchy SM-70 or a Pass Aleph?

That is a kind offer. First, however, I would like to consider everything the forum might suggest. Point is I am not convinced that a tube amplifier is the best technology for this application. My dealer has allowed me to bring the VT-100 Mk III to my home. I admit that it does sound better than the Krell. However, it also has a "warmth" that I do not like. This may be acceptable with jazz, rock, and country but not at all acceptable with classical music. Regardless, I find it totally unacceptable in an amplifier that retails for $6,000.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> It is my experience that this phenomenon is not unique to Audio Research tube amplifiers, but systemic to the breed. After evaluating everything I have heard (from live auditions of the amplifiers) to date, I am considering the Monarchy SM-70, the Pass Aleph 5, and the Ayre Acoustics V-3. All of the best sounds I have heard to date seem to be coming out of these state-of-the-art solid-state amplifiers. Please note that I would much rather spend ~ $2,000 for a wonder-tube amp, than $3,000 to $4,000 for a Pass or an Ayre. Fact is, if anyone can show me a tube amp that is not plagued with a pallet of colors when rendering Mozart and Shuman, I will be delighted to consider it Please remember when you ponder this conundrum; we are speaking CLASSICAL music on Klipsch Belles here. The goal is the proper size amplifier (with the Belles sensitivity of 103 db, why on earth does one need 300 watts per channel) and NO TONE COLOR. Does anyone have any experience with the Aragon 8002?

Kind Folks, <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Thank you for the many replies. In answer to the many questions regarding what I have tried, here is a summary: In the beginning actually, when I left the military some 35 years ago, I had quite a nice system indeed. I dont recall all of the details, but the entire system was centered about a Sony TA-2000 preamp, Sony TA-3200F amplifier, a pair of K-horns, and a Cornwall center channel (yes, I ran afoul of the center channel myth). At the time I was quite pleased with this system. With a large basement room (that had great corner locations for the K-horns), this system gave me acceptable clarity and a great soundstage. It sounded all the world like forth row, center at the Met. The amp was not as quiet as it could have been, but hey it was good for1970. Later, in the mid 80s, the TA-3200F (and the Cornwall) gave up the ghost. I perceived this turn of events a perfect opportunity to upgrade. Instead, I purchased a McIntosh C-27, MC-2120, and a Marantz 20B tuner. At any rate, the tuner turned out to be quite decent. I should have had the TA-3200F repaired and kept both it and the TA-2000. In very short order I exhausted all patience with the C-27 (this had to be McIntoshs worst hour) and traded it for a C-35. If I recall correctly, the McIntosh dealer gave me only $100 for it. The C-35 made a significant improvement in the transients (cross-talk, hum, pop, etc.) but the MC-2120 simply did not have the power to provide any presence, whatsoever. A year or so after I purchased the C-35, I found an MC-7100 for a reasonable (by McIntosh standards) price. At that time, McIntosh amplifiers were required to have "big-blue-meters". The MC-7100 may have been non-McIntosh in appearance, but WOW, could it make the K-horns talk. This system could produce clean, uncolored, Wagner Meistersinger (at Met volume levels), without any unwelcome tonal changes. Life was good again until I moved to a new home. Now, because of space constraints and adherence to the fundamental laws of physics, I was forced to part with the Klipschorns. This is when the dark-times began. I replaced the K-horns with a pair of CF-4s. As it turned out, my children loved them. I, on the other hand, was convinced that Aerosmith would destroy my stereo system. Needless to say, the local high-end salesmen were convinced that the problem lay with my amplifier. So, I traded the trusty MC-7100 for an MC-300. This made things MUCH louder, but not much clearer. The children were happy, but the fact is the CF-4s are not the equal of the K-horns. This was the beginning of a quest for something comparable to what I had enjoyed in the past. I have tried B&Ws (from CDMs to Nautilus 801s), Spica TC-50s (WHAT A PAIN), ProAc Studio 125s (the best cone-speaker I have tried), and the Belles (the best I have heard, which will still fit into my house). I have also listened to Magnepans, Martin Logans, and a set of vintage KLHs. The large Magnepans sound rather nice, but I have no need for additional wall partitions in my home. The Martin Logans and the KLHs (regardless of the advertising hype) are far too directional. At the suggestion of the local high-end salesperson, the last amplifier I purchased was a Krell FPB-200. Not quite as powerful as the MC-300, but with a decidedly fuzzy mid-range. The salesmen called the tone quality voluptuous. Filled with delight it may be, but its music that I want. Now, the same salesman wants to sell me an Audio Research VT-100 Mk III. It seems (according to him) that my problem is being caused by a chronic lack of tubes. He came to this conclusion as he was demonstrating the clarity to me with a Pink Floyd demo CD. So that is my trial. Here, twelve years later (albeit, under different conditions and some $18,000 wasted), I am trying to recapture what I had.

Folks, I am in need of some help. The problem, in short, is that I am in need of an amplifier to fit between my McIntosh C-35 and my new Belles. The most exasperating part of my search has been the opinions of the pundits, who can not view the problem from my perspective that of a CLASSICAL MUSIC aficionado. I do not own, nor do I have any interest in, music other than classical (early Baroque through Romantic period). It seems that in the past, I have made some rather poor choices based on the opinions of the aforementioned self-professed boffins. The worst of which was the purchase of a pair of B&W Nautilus 801s. It seems that I found them to be inappropriate for Liszt, but (according to my daughter) work quite well for LL Cool J. The monetary loss was in excess of $2,500. And now, the dealer who sold me the Belles is quite adamant that an Audio Research VT-100 is the only amplifier that can possibly do justice to the Belles. ENOUGH!! So here I am beseeching this august body for their collective wisdom. In short, the question is, Which amplifier(s) will best drive the Belles to their maximum potential, without adding ANYTHING WHATSOEVER (or, as little as possible) to the musical score? PS: The CD player is an Oracle CD-1500.