ajsons

Soundwise, how does the Paragon compare to the less expensive Metregon?

That's a sharp-looking Belle you have! I like that midhorn, too.

How do you like the sound of your Khorns with those EV drivers? My SK with the EVM-15B actually makes a good partner for the Classic. The difference is obvious, in favor of the Classic, but you can tell that the SK/EV combination is a very good system too. Please check out the other thread, "Should I build University Classic or La Scala?" by Quisitive. There's a lot of good info there. I'm glad to hear from another EV fan.

Thanks.

Thanks for the kind words.I'll draft the plans, regardless, then we'll revisit this again sometime. I'll give Dana a copy for his chop, and we'll go from there. Keep in touch via emails. The good thing is, with your schedule, and my schedule, there really is no deadline for this. But I'll work on it. I understand you have deadlines for/at your work. So do I, and I hate deadlines. I'm still thinking what I can trade you with for those HF-206's. Will you take my mother-in-law? Armando

Does this explain why additional reflectors are not required on the Dean? the bends approximate a curve? No way, man! No way. English is my second language. When I can't comprehend what people are saying, I'd say, "You have a good command of the English language!" "Why do you say that?" is their usual answer. "Because I don't understand what you're saying!" You know a lot about horns! I have to read over and over, your horn explanations, because you're telling me things that I don't understand!!! (LOL!)

This one, too.

How about this one, crossing at 350hz? That's an N-3 crossover partially showing.

Chris,I really don't know the high end cut-off of the Classic since I have not done any measurements. I know the low end cut-off of the cobreflex is 350hz. Was the N-3 crossover designed for the Classic or Dean's high-end cut-off, or the cobreflex lowest usable frequency of 350hz? In his book, Cohen talked about comparative package systems (woofer drivers, midhorns, tweeter horns and crossovers) available from EV, Jensen and University. "In the University system the crossover points are 350 and 5000, in the Electro-voice system they are at 800 and 3500 Hz, and in the Jensen system they are at 600 and 4000 Hz." (The University package includes the C-15W woofer, cobreflex or H600 midhorns, T-35 middriver, HF-206 tweeter and the N-3 crossover. The EV includes a 15W-1 woofer, 8HD midhorn, T-25 middriver, T-35 tweeter and X8 and X36 crossovers. The Jensen includes the P-15LL, RP201 midhorn, and RP302 tweeter horn and A-61 and A-42 crossovers). "In all these systems, crossover points were chosen to be compatible with the CUT-OFF CHARACTERISTICS OF THE HORNS." (mid and tweeter horns, that is.) "In choosing components such as these, which have been engineered by the manufacturers to be the equivalent of a package, the home constructor is faced only with the choice of the enclosure"........" (blah, blah). "He may use a bass reflex...." (blah, blah) "or he may use a horn..."(blah, blah) . Actually, the N-3 has 350 and 700. 350 hz setting for a package system with a cobreflex and 700 for the H600. A tapped inductor and strapped cap take care of the change) . So, is it possible, when University built the Classic, that they took an off-the-shelf crossover, the N-3, optimized for the cobreflex and the HF-206 tweeter, and said, "This will work just fine". And now, we're thinking the other way around, that the N-3 was designed specifically for the bass horn? and that the Classic (or Dean) is only good up to 350 hertz?

Chris, Q-man doesn't have a Classic. He has a Dean. I dissected the folding of the Dean twice, and translated the dimensions to a graph. The expansion starts very slowly at the throat, a little faster after the first bend, chokes off on the second, then expands like crazy at the last turn towards the mouth. It is not a smooth curve like a horn's expansion should be but a stepped arrangement of lines. What's the flare rate, I can't tell. The horn's folding looks good on paper. But it needs adjustments to improve the high end. I disagree with Dana, with all-due respect, on the no-reflector requirement statement he made earlier about the Dean. It needs reflectors, real bad. Like I said earlier, if reflectors are mirrors correctly positioned, and you're looking into the horn at the mouth, you should see the driver's cone. It will never happen on the Dean, because there are no reflectors, other than the one at the throat. It also has the wrong angle. Thus, it is only good to 350hz. Dana has a light mirror demo in an earlier post. Earlier in this thread, Dana also said: "However, for frequencies above 200Hz, the use of reflectors is manditory in my book, and I mean full-channel hard surface reflectors, not radius-types, which produce 180 deg. reflections back to the source, not at all a good thing." In the first Classic thread, we agreed on a center divider at the throat of the Classic, not the Dean, to prevent phase cancellations, a 47 degree reflector at the first bend, a change at the angle of the throat reflector and a slight change at the large reflector, all of which are aimed at improving the response.

I think this is the time when we all scream, "Remove the f%^&*!?<>door !!!!! (LOL!) Nice try, though. Maybe somebody else can use those ideas.

And finish them like this. Depending on your choice of midrange horns, you can aim them like they were designed on this one or leave them the way they are. And place your stereo components on top, as shown.

This last one, I told Dana that I will post under Updates and Mods, I'll just keep it here. I call this one the "Electrogon", because I use mostly EV drivers. With the butted arrangement of the Classics, cut the tops and the bottoms (when used as lowboys) as shown. Make a notch for a curved reflector. The reflector can be made from thin plywood, the kind used on kitchen cabinets, with back stiffeners. (This will be hardest part of the construction). (And I have the plans from another speaker to do it..). Add some fancy legs..................................................

Double post, sorry

Or the factory grilles.

Or you can have partial grilles, and place the midrange horns on top of the Classics, or wherever you want them. The base can be anything, as shown. Storage underneath?

Chris, I got your email. The picture of the HF-206 is perfect. I can insert that in AutoCAD and trace over it, as long as I have one good dimension. TNX a lot. Did you get my email, though? I forgot the dimensions of the room, so I'm guesstimating from the pictures you sent. But like what I was saying in my email, I think you don't have a problem. If you use the Classics as lowboys, butted against each other, with the mouths at the far ends, I think you will have enough stereo separation, and plenty of space left to open the door and use the printer. Place the stereo rack which is not that deep, to the left, or place your components on top of the Classics. There is a picture coming up with that setup, but I'll post some drawings first. The Classics don't look that big when they have no grilles. That's the factory base shown, a taller one or legs might work out better for your setup.

Thanks, but I'm not done yet. Wait till you see the next one. This next one will blow the JBL guys away. I'll probably post it under Upgrades & Mods. As far as the calculations, I'm not really worried. I was taking programming lessons when the Show Horn article came out. I took Edgar's formulas and wrote a Qbasic horn program. Then wrote a "how to use a program" write-up for my English class. I submitted the software and the write-up to Audio Amateur. Edgar reviewed it, got published and got paid (5th issue of 1995 Speaker Builder). Back then , I hardly knew anything about horns. I still don't, but I am learning a lot from you. I wish I know as much as you do on horn design. The program is in ancient DOS. It will calculate throat area, mouth area for 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 size or infinite horns, Vb, mass roll-off frequency, expansions for a single path horn or bifurcated horn. It will also calculate expanding dimensions between parallel sidewalls (my idea, and somebody copied it) if you enter the constant dimension. The M parameter is manually inputted, so you have control of expansion choice, i.e. exponential, hyperbolic or catenoid. Printing using today's computers is its biggest problem. It looks for a dot matrix printer at the old printer port. But there are ways around it. I'm going off line to draw my next posts.

Slow down. The Classic bass horn is only good to around 350Hz. I measured it once, but I don't remember the exact number. That information is with my old notes. I also believe that the University crossover is also at 350Hz. The Cornwall midrange horn won't go that low. I think the Cornwall had a 700 Hz. crossover point. The Corbreflex midrange horn in the Classic is a 250Hz. horn. Slowng down to a halt here, I am going to go back to other plans of mods to Corns, as of now the cabinets are inverted and raised 11" from ground with k55v/511B on top, and k77 verticle between 511 and k33e, really like they way they sound like this, imaging (height) of voices much more stage, performance straight in front, just dropped a bit in bass due to port/k33e being 36+ inches off floor. Was thinking of adding a single K horn/EV106 bass bin crossed about 200hz with separate amp to augment bass lost and go a bit lower, and/or get second bass bin later and transfer Corn componets/511's to them and type A crossovers. Since the forum search feature doesn't work as well as before, I can't find many earlier posts, are you the one with K horns and the 311-90 Altecs with tweeter below them? If so was wondering how well you like the false corner set ups you used ( I think that is what I remember), having both K horn cabinets facing forward? I would have to use false walls in my situation, though I had one thought if using just one with the CW's, laying Khorn bin on side (vertical) and use floor and back wall as the corner, in between the CW's. I need to add a drawing here to show this but, with the Khorn bin as above, I would build what essentially would look like a 38" wide desk using appro 28"x28" side panels, and a top and front panel 38" wide x approx. 20" deep that would form a 90 degree peak over the front 38x31 panel of the khorn. The sides would be for function and peak would be for a furniture look, the Khorn bin should function the same just using different orientation. I do wonder if a peak (like LaScala) in the center of the Khorn would have any acoustical benefit, it sure would in aerodynamics, actually a must in that flow direction. The false corners of course would be the next option. Can you slow down some more? (LOL!)

Q-Man, Do you have a picture of your Dean in the new configuration, i.e. with legs? I think that's a clever idea, although now you can't push it in a corner unless you remove the legs. Also, the Classics built in the 60's have braces (two inside the doghouse, and one rear of the doghouse. It also used glue blocks and glue wedges. 1 x1 strips of wood to support joints. Mine (built in the late 50's) does not have the braces and has too much panel vibrations. Do you notice that in the Dean?

Here's another variation, this time top is now bottom, with a 511B horn, and a C15W woofer in one. (I really should stop playing with this and get busy). Overall height about 49", can be lowered to 47 or 48.

Dana, I wasn't sure what kind of conclusions to draw from the size versus flare vs mouth size comparisons that you did, but now I think that's what you probably meant, there is no conclusion to draw. There are too many variables, compromises, etc. , so it is now all preference in my opinion. I believe the Show horn has a 12" driver with a smaller throat size, that's why it is longer. A 15" will terminate with the same mouth size using the 50hz flare rate, 1/8 size, but it will be shorter. Let me do this. I'll draft one using the Classic's original expansion as a "gobee" (term we use at the office, after go-by, "go by this"), then do another one using a 50hz expansion flare rate. Then we'll compare them , maybe I'll send them to you for redlines. (Why do I feel like I am at work? This is exactly what happens there). But I enjoy doing it, why not.

And here's an HF-206. There are better tweeters nowadays, but during its time, it was probably one of the better ones. Again, it's a good-looking tweeter, but I will only get a pair, if the price is right...cheap.

(That last post you did only shows a square with an x for a picture. Your room layout too on the other thread shows up the same way. It might be my pc, because others have seen your pictures. ) I've seen that "corrected" drawing, and a big thank you. I'm not sure yet what were corrected. That hifilit website sure has a lot of good stuff. Here's a 4401 tweeter, some Classics came with it. The HF-206 is a better tweeter.

It sure produces some compound cuts, the good news is they will not be large pieces, and will be easy to make on a table saw. And they're just repetitive cuts. As far as the expansion, I thought of dissecting the Classic's expansion and copy it, say every 6 inches. It is not that long. So it stays a Classic with a different doghouse. But I'll try both ways. I'm glad you like that design. I'll post more tonight.