6foot8

Here's what I think is going to happen on that fateful day in April...Craig if you have an issue with my analysis then please tell me. The room the La Scalas are in is about 12 w by 15 d. It is not a closed room, it opens up into a dinning area and then by the front halllway a staircase up to the 3rd level. Listening will be 10-12 feet or so away from the front of the speakers. Assuming the VRDs will put out 8 watts RMS of solid power that should be around 112-113 dbs (c weighted) at 3 feet from the driver. We should therefore be experienceing c weighted levels at the listening area averaging around the 102 to 105 dB level. now understanding that watts are watts (in a purley electrical sense) and that dBs are dbs both amps should be able to produce similar levels of bass at that power level. I will ignore preferences in midrange and high frequency reproduction for the sake of this discussion. Now most would argue that this is more than sufficient, and for this room I would definitely agree. Where I think the differences would become apparent is if we were to move the La Scalas to the big room on the first level and attempted to drive the La Scalas to 100-105 c weighted dBs at 20-25 feet away. At this point the speakers would need to see power somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 watts at the drivers...is this correct? I think the tube amp would run o ut of gas before it could produce those kind of SPls that far away...only because it will be driving full range frequencies. If the tube amp were only producing power for 400Hz and up I think it would be fine. Remember that on the Jubilles the 402 MF and the Grand HF andle 50 watts RMS with 6dB peaks (200 watts peak). I don't ever drive them anywhere near that point but the do sometimes see 5 watts rms. I have measured c weighted SPLs near 118 at the horn flare on occaision. Is this how you see it Craig?

It's your neighbor's subwoofer meagin. We will see about those VRDs in April when Mike shows up at my place. If I am wrong then I will glady admit it and go buy me a couple of pairs. By the way to all...DrWho replied in a post on "distortion" about this notion of percived differences in distortion of tube vs SS...I think he makes a very good point.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out. What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in?? Craig As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate." Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go. It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings. Very cool and I could careless if the results are even reported back to the forum one way or the other. I would however like to hear what you think in private. What year are your Lascalas and when you say stock do you mean 100% stock. What crossovers are in them? If you want we can take these details to private email if you like craigostby@comcast.net I'm still wondering what Tube gear you have tried by the way. Craig Craig...sorry didn't mean to dodge your question. The La Scalas are 1989 vintage if I remember correctly and unfortunately use the original AL networks...but they are my wife's now and she does like them. They are destined to be tri-amped soon. I have one more BGW in the shop getting new output caps and then I'll take out the passive crossover altogether. The history of how I got here is a long one, but I'll keep it short. It really got started in 1992 when I was fresh out of grad school. I blew all my savings on a brand new pair of 1992 Khorns, a brand new Dynaco ST-70 and mint vintage McIntosh C-26 and about $500 bucks worth of speaker wire. I already had all the other stuff (turntable, tape deck, etc, etc). I had auditioned a vintage Mac tube amp that the dealer had out of his collection he wanted to sell me but I could not afford it. I did prefer the sound to the Dynaco however. Anyways time marched on, I collected more stuff and grew increasingly less satisfied with the ST-70. The trouble really started when I sold the Khorns to make some cash for my first house. I kept the some of the other stuff but acquired the La Scalas many years ago to replace my Khorns...now I made a serious mistake. At that time I was not familiar with this Klipsch speaker. The tube amp just did not get it for me at all on the La Scalas so I started experimenting with other amps. I tried the Onkyo M504 and it was very harsh, then a NAD 218THX better than the Onkyo but still lacked bottom end. I tried a couple of Carvers, a beast of a vintage Marantz (the one with the meters but I can't recall the model as I retuned it when an output capacitor smoked on me), a QSC 2450 which was not too bad...the tube amp was out of the picture so I purchased a very nice BGW 750B, had it updated and WOW it made the bottom on those La Scalas really sound good. I had sold most of my equipment back in the mid 1980's to finance college and had not owned another BGW until a few years ago when I started making changes to my system. Back when I was doing sound re-enforcement I used BGW, SAE and Phase Linear in a very large system. Maybe it's nostalgia or personal preference but nothing I tried sounded as good to me.

I have a much better idea. Lets get a pair of VRD's over to your place with a Juicy music pre and compare the outcome against your 50 watt BGW surely someone in your area can do this. I'm not stating that one will be better then the other I have no experience with the system you have. I'm totally curious as to what the outcome would be. It would also be nice is more then just one or two members were present for the shoot out. What tube gear exactly have you run and if vintage what electrical condition was it in?? Craig As I read it, Mike Lindsay and he already have this in the works. It'll be interesting to see what they "negotiate." Mike and I have plans to get together the first weekend in April. We are going to hook his equipment up to my bone stock La Scalas and make that comparison. The Jubilees use an active crossover with 3 amps and it's all racked. That is probably too much to tear down, besides the only driver we could really put the tube amp on to make any comparisons would be the midrange...everything else would still employ SS amps. So we thought making a full range comparisons on a stock set of Las Scalas would be the best way to go. It's not all about this Tube vs. SS debate anyway, I think he would just like to hear the Jubilees first hand. Even if he rejects the BGW as a good sounding amp we are going to have some fun and no hard feelings.

Jeff..sorry about hammering so hard on the other thread. My point is use your own ears. Electonic measuring equipment is far more accurate than your ears. If you like tubes then enjoy them and forget about anyone else says, if you like SS then do the same. You know there are those out there who don't think Klipsch sound good either...whoda figger'd that.

Where are you? I'm in Oviedo and sure would like to come by and hear your rig! Mike Hey Mike, I live in Clermont. Shoot me a PM or email me at luvmy92@earthlink.net, and we'll arrange to meet one weekend. I'll bring my VRD's and BBX. For future reference: LMAO = Laughing My *** Off ROTFLMAO = Rolling On The Floor Laughing My *** Off PITA = Pain In The *** LOL = Laughing Out Loud BTW = By The Way WRT = With Regard To IMO = In My Opinion IMHO = In My Humble Opinion or In My Honest Opinion Mike Mike I sent you an email.

Thanks sfogg...now I get it.

Meagain...how can you possible revel in your attacks on me? Particulaiarly if you are aware that I have no idea that I am being slammed by you because I don't speak the language... I probably deserve it though.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby! ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well. 1. Your system is much better than mine. 2. I live in North Dakota so I won't be coming for a listen. 3. When you joined this forum less than a year ago you quickly decided to take your toys and go home, even going as far as to request your profile and all your posts be deleted. This, for a few posts much less obnoxious, arrogant, and condescending than the post I am quoting here and others. Doug I also wanted to say that I did not mean to sound pretentious or arrogant. I have worked and saved very hard for over a decade to be able to put this system together. It's a life long dream I have worked hard for. I am not rich and did not mean for it to come off that way.

Are you talking to me again meagain? What does this lingo mean? If you are going to slam me then please do it in a language that I can understand.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby! ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well. 1. Your system is much better than mine. 2. I live in North Dakota so I won't be coming for a listen. 3. When you joined this forum less than a year ago you quickly decided to take your toys and go home, even going as far as to request your profile and all your posts be deleted. This, for a few posts much less obnoxious, arrogant, and condescending than the post I am quoting here and others. Doug, Yes I have decided to follow the example of so many others in this forum. You are correct, I am much less bashfull these days about speaking my mind. I aopologize for the sharp toungue. However, I am no more arrogant than the likes of others around here who claim to be the final word on what defines high fidelity. I am suggesting that maybe some of these folks do not like having their "authority" on the matter called into question. I do not take what Dean, Craig or anyone else around here says as "Hi Fi gospel." I am simply calling into question what has become conventional wisdom around here. Simply put don't spout off personal biases as if they are truth particuliarly if you don't have the data and experience to back it up. I live in a world of mathematics and much of what I do needs to be "proved" or demonstrated by indirect analysis to be "true." However, just like in my world, I am sure Craig lives in a world of ambiguity, albeit electrical, as well. Some things are very difficult if not impossible to prove because of wide grey areas, exceptions to the rule or rapidly changing situations (akin to dynamics in his world). This debate would clearly satisfy all of those situations...and yet it has raged on for years.

Rick I don't get the LMAO..please translate.

You are correct about one thing...I am not king of the mountain. There are things that you do such as build very good crossovers that I can't do. Craig designs and builds very good amplifiers, I can't do that either. These shortcommings of mine do not in any way mean that I am not qualified to evaluate the sonic qualities of the equipment. I do not have to be an electrical engineer to make subjective evaluations about the "quality" of the sound a system reproduces. You, Craig and other "experts" around do not have exclusive rights to make subjective evaluations on the sonic qualities of audio equipment. Certainly the systems you and Craig have for example are not the benchmark for which every one else should judge their systems by. You like your stuff, that's great, but it is by no means any better than what I and others have around here. You may be very good and designing and building crossovers and amps but that does not make you any more of an expert than me or anyone else in judging how it sounds. This intellectual masturbation has no point, particuliarly when people rely on unsubstantiated personal biases to form their opinions. I have owned systems very comparable to what you have, and was not satisfied with the performance. I attribute that soley to the amp...not my room or certainly not the speakers. No I have not used a tube amp with passive filters on my system, nor will I. I have been down that road before and was not satisfied...have you been down my road before oh wise one?

Thanks Dean, sounds like you lack personal experience as well. Lots of people with unsubstantiated personal biases around here. You can come over too Dean. If you haven't heard it then why do you feel so strongly as you do?

Tell you what Paul, bring your little tube amp over and we'll hook it up to another system I have that is La Scala based...you have La Scalas right? This system is very simple, 100 watt BGW and a preamp with two speakers in an average sized room. I'll even keep it fair, I'll use the smallest BGW amp I have...50 watts per channel (the same exact model PWK used by the way) and I'd be willing to bet it still sounds at least as good in the midrange and seriously outperforms the tube amp in the bass regions.

Let me throw this out as well. When I purchased my Jubilees, Chuck (from Klipsch) asked what I was going to use to drive them. I told him that I had planned on using BGW, his reply was that they were "outstanding" amps and that was an excellent choice. American Cinema also recommended BGW as the best in their class. Until you have heard with your own ears then maybe you should not comment on the subject. I bring considerable personal experience to bear on the use of these amps with both Klipsch, Altec and EV speakers. Many years ago I was a partner in a sound re-enforcement company and we used primarly these same types of BGW amps with our speakers. I have had the opportunity to experiment with a wide variety of combinations over the years in both the sound re-enforcement and home audio environments. Sure we tried other brands but were very impressed with the sound quality and reliability of BGW...apparently some folks at Klipsch share those sentiments including PWK himself. Consider this...if you high quality Klipsch speakers really do sound harsh or shrill with a very good SS amp (and I am not talking about NAD, Onkyo, etc, etc) then maybe it's your ears that are failing you. I have used these cheaper brands as well and was NEVER satisfied with the sound. I have poured a lot of money at this over the years and if I didn't like the results of the combination I have then I would move on to something that did give me satisfaction. I didn't form this opinion from inexperience or some unsubstantiated personal bias like others I have heard around here. I speak from many years worth of time, money, effort and experience. So Paul, if you feel like you are casting pearls amongst swine, then just go away. Even us math geeks can get philosophical.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Maybe you aren't qualified to render an opinion either Paul. The proof is in the pudding..as it were. Can you say with rigorous honesty that you have heard anything like a Jubilee system driven with high quality amps such as BGW and then compared that to Khorns driven with a 35 watt/channel tube amp and a Mac preamp? Probably not, but I can. Funny how PWK used a BGW 100 because it sounded so good and it almost immeasurable IMD figures. That's what is really important. The THD figures are so low for this equipment anyway, I don't see how it could even be heard, even or odd harmonics. Combine that with almost immeasurable IMD and 6dB of headroom and how can you say it doesn't sound good compared to "tube watts?" I for one am glad my system doesn't sound like a tube system, and I am qualified to render that opinion since I speak from personal experience.

Facinating.... First off, I wasn't even addressing you. I quoted Craig's comments regarding bass & tubes & your quote got in there. 2nd - you have NO clue what levels, pricepoints, or types of systems I've listened to in my lifetime - but go ahead and assume. Why not 'eh? I'll consider your freekishly condescending remarks seriously. Knowing I'm not qualified to render an opinion on sound quality - I should just sell everything off and get a JVC boombox. I hope they still make them. This will save me vast amounts of money!!! Woooo! See ya at Walmart baby! ok little girly, how about checking your spelling. I am an ABD in apllied mathematical statistics but I don't read 13 year old very well.

Where are you? I'm in Oviedo and sure would like to come by and hear your rig! Mike Hey Mike, I live in Clermont.

Meagain you have never heard anything that even comes close to what is sitting in my media room. I have heard both and have owned everything from KG4s to my Jubilees and everything in between. Some people just aren't qualified to render an opinion. Until such time you have owned what I have and can make these comparison then I suggest you stay in the mall.

I've gotta go find some food.

You're probably right Bill. I like to listen to music at levels that would be comparable to a live performance. I don't get much out of Deep Purple at room conversation levels. I want it to sound as if I were there...again.

Hey Bart...wanna come for din din?[A] Not if you have the munchies. All this talk about food is getting me hungry.

Hey Bart...wanna come for din din?[A]

I have had both Khorns and la Scalas driven with both tube and SS and in my experience I was always on the edge of the sofa wanting more when I was using a tube amp. Impossible to get enough bottom end in a large room with a small amp (tube or SS). I no longer have the Khorns but I still have the La Scalas in another room and the improvement in bottom end was very noticeable with a very good SS amp..again BGW. These are very large amps with massive power supplies and are rated at least twice what the speakers will handle continuously. Some of my bigger BGWs are three times rated power of the La Scalas...they do not clip, or get close to running out of power...period and end of story. I also have the added benefit of more bottom end at reasonable listening levels in a large room. For my Jubilees I must have a very good SS amp for them as no tube amp in the world (that I know of) is going to give me a minimum of 400 watts continuous with 6dBs of headroom without costing more than my house and weighing in at 500lbs.