Decadent_Spectre

My dealer mentioned that the HF horn is the "KPT-Grand HF-T", is this the same as the 510?

Thanks, that helps. Is there a posted response for the MF version also? Or for the Jubilee and the HF horn that is used in the 3 way Jubilee? Found this for the Jubilee, is it accurate?

Hi Chris, nice to hear from you again. Could you try to describe the subjective "tonal" difference please between the 2226Hs and the Jubes? Could you also please point me to the response of the K402/MF/HF if it has been published? Or perhaps lets me know the size of the driver used in each and the effective frequency range covered? Can the K402MF be used full range with an expected droop in the HF or is it useless beyond a certain range? Would it be suitable for me given the response I posted where I roll off the HF?

Time to bump an old thread.... Since my previous posts I have added 2 JBL cabs to the setup for a total of 4x 2226Hs in ported cabs. Currently the setup stand something like this - SH50s JBLs BC412s DIY sealed using 21" drivers I've measured, I've tweaked/EQed but for the life of me I can't get the sound I want, as such thinking of the Jubilee, again. Thinking of mating the Jube to the SH50 and not the full Jube speaker. The JBLs while nice are not quite there. A response chart of the Left SH+JBL+BC412 is attached at LP with no smoothing, the BC and SH has EQ the JBL does not. Was taken a while ago so its changed since then as I keep changing things. The sealed 21s are not in the graph as I do not use them for music (I prefer it that way). Everything was aligned in time with no dips. Through most of the range I don't lack output and 100-105db is still my usual listening (the below 40Hz range could use some reinforcement) and output is not what I seek, more the ***right*** "tone", "warmth" and "punch". FR is one aspect but theres more to consider such as the power response at LP and there does not seem to be a lot of published data on the Jubilee and perhaps I simply don't know enough about the response I seek? I'd note that my quest is subjective, not objective, whatever gets me there. If it has a 10db peak/dip I am fine with it. As evidenced by the graph I am more interested in the mid bass and mid range, less so in the HF which I roll off. My question is, will the Jubilee give me that tone/punch? Like before a demo remains out of the question, the dealer informed me that a Jubilee has never been imported into India. Or should I continue to try and work with the JBLs? If so does someone have a suggested response curve to try? Also out of curiosity what is the difference between the K402MF and K402HF? Are measurements available for these?

A quick google suggests that Klipsch drivers are made by Eminence, browsing the Eminence site it would seem that at least the cone on the Klipsch drivers in the 415 are very similar to the cone of the Kappalite 3015LF. If they do not publish the driver T/S maybe there are frequency etc measurements for the 415 cabinet? Either proivided by Klipsch or by an enthusiast/third party? I did come across a few responses for the Jubilee but not for the 415. Is there any information on how the Klipsch drivers compare to other choices like the AE TD15M or the JBL 2226H?

Klipsch does not publish the T/S of their drivers like JBL does?

Thanks Chris, could you please point me to the T/S specs and frequency/phase/distortion plots? I could not find them.

What drivers are used in these? What are the T/S specs? Is there a frequency/phase response and distortion plot available? I'd appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on this as I could not find any information on them.

They are on top of some dual 21" cabs which are being used as stands (not connected) but they are quite close to the corners, the left is actually a bit more out from the corner than the right. My amp died right when I got it and its taking longer than expected to replace it which is why the 412s are idle. Previously when I was running subs I had tested a flat response down to 15Hz, and after EQ there were no major dips or peaks but it still did not do it, that is why I was thinking it (lack of punch/speed) might be inherent to the SH50s as I was unable to EQ it out.

The BC is low enough for music (at least for my music), for movies I plan to add something below it at a later point, I plan to only use the 412s for music. My preference is in the 60-150Hz range rather than 20-60Hz which is why I opted for the BC412s, otheriwise I would have looked at their BC415 or DBH218LC or perhaps some custom large corner loaded FLH. I do use manual EQ to adjust the curve to taste and the above curve is only a raw measurement, it is not a curve that I use. I have tried the trial version of Dirac and was not satisfied so hesitate to use automated EQs as I get better subjective results with manual tweaking. Why do you feel the mid bass is not the problem? I lack speed/definition and punch and as I understand it would be a function of mid bass rather than bass.

Hi Chris, the HPF is actually around 50-70Hz I think, I don't remember precisely. My plan is to put the BC412s on opposing walls, approximately mid way and that position did work well with my DTS10s so I hope that will be ideal, I recall the Welti paper also suggesting this and it does seem to work well. If the 412s are able to deliver in the 100-150Hz band then I might not need anything but in case they do not I started this thread to gather thoughts on how the Klipsch might do for the job. I will fully agree that THs are best used below 40-50Hz, at least that is my take away from the DTS10s but their measurements suggest this as well, something like the Othorns should fare much better but I personally love the sound of a front loaded horn. Straight horns are indeed too long, if they had been an option I would have gotten a custom one that did the job of the BC412s, at this point I think a 100Hz straight horn is probably as far as I could go as I imagine the depth with a rear chamber would come out to about 40-45" and even that depth would be difficult for me but within the realm of possibility.

djk, please do post a few details and subjective impressions on them.

Yes, I am looking into something to replace the SH50's LF section,be it a dedicated mid bass horn or a enitre different system if necessary. What kind of size would the horn be for the 50x50 pattern? I could not find any details on the Klipsch website about the 402MB, do you have any links? A decade of bandwidth out of a horn does seem to be a challenge, I would be interested to hear what you come up with and the results. Any particular reason for sticking to 1" drivers? I think the depth required would be about 36" for a 100Hz horn that is straight, plus whatever needed for the back chamber. Could try to do the extension but I do not have enough knowledge to really want to tinker with things myself, would prefer that a professional do it. Sealed/vented subs are easy, but trying to mess with an existing horn design is out of my league. I just hear it sounding this way, I'm not sure why it sounds like this. With regards to speaker placement I really don't have much choice, just a little bit of room to move it. I have attached a raw measurement I found on my PC, it is a bit old and since then I have made some changes to the room and moved my speakers a bit but it should give you an idea. Left is black, Right is red, both with no EQ, only a HPF, no smoothing. Measured at LP.

I am actually quite interested to know if the Jubilee/MWM would work well for that 80-300Hz band between the SH50s and BC412s, I am also looking to understand that if it would actually be beneficial (subjectively) or the simpler SH/BC combo would be more ideal, I feel the Klipsch products could be an excellent choice for what I am lacking hence my posts. Budget and space are always a factor, the question is at what point, as far as space goes, the MWMs are about as far as I can go (if that). I ask about the horns after having exhausted the sealed/ported options. Called my local distributor and he said there were no Jubilees/MCM/MWMs I could audition here.

My understanding of the PPSL is that it is just a vented enclosure with less even order distortion and I have tried quite a few vented enclosures and did not like them so was looking for a front loaded horn. The BC412s will easily take care of 40-100, I wanted to see if I can improve that 100-300 region in case the 412 does not sound right in that critical 100-150 band hence my thoughts about changing the LF, in the SH50s I believe the mids XO into the woofers around 300Hz.

A good horn sub would solve your problem. I think the Danleys have the best transient response I've ever heard. Things just crack like a whip to my ears. If solving your "sound preference" requires a little EQ, what's wrong with that solution? Danley stuff requires far less EQ than anything else I've ever owned or heard. The EQ makes it sound better and removes bloating to a large degree but it still lacks speed and punch. If EQ was all I needed then I wouldn't look at changing things. Do you think the BC412s will be enough? Or do I need a mid bass horn like the ones I have mentioned? If so which one?

I'm in India so unfortunately I can't make it, thank you for the offer! How would you compare the Jubilee bass bin to the MWM? Chris, 2 MWMs on each side is too large for my space. I will try to see if I can hear a couple MWMs or Jubilees. I will read up on your link. At some point I want to add some low bass subs to cover below 40-45Hz so I need to keep some space for that as well. I'm not sure how to describe fast mid bass other than it sounds fast and controlled and has more definition to the sound/punch. Surely room acoustics is very important there but in my opinion so is the enclosure design.

Excelllent points and discussion. I think its safe to say that both options are very good based on the thoughts posted by multiple people. This brings me to my main point which I mentioned a few posts ago, it is the LF section I find to be lacking in the SH50. I find it to be a bit bloated and lacking punch and attack, it lacks speed. I was looking for more attack/speed and punch here, as well as something that isn't bloated. With the Sh50s I have to pull down the 150-400Hz region a lot. Perhaps it is just my own prefrences and not a design flaw? I do definitely feel a lack of speed and punch. As I mentioned I was primarily interested in the Jubilee for the bass bin or the MWM from the MCM system, I also wouldn't mind other mid bass horns sch as the Altec or the ones posted on Inlow sound, other mid bass horns that come to mind are the DS15 from Funktion one or the Hyperfold from Void. I was initially concnerned that the Jubilee system might give up too much in the mid/hf but I feel confident from reading the replies that it will also be a great performer. The SH96HO in biamp looks to have a very smooth response but I wouldn't go that route because it is also has the same LF design as the SH50s. At this point I suppose the question is that for my circumstances is adding some sort of midbass horn or switching to the Jubilee/MCM systems going to help with my issues? I have EQed the system to be flat as well in the past and I did not care for the sound.

I mean things like Assemblage 23,Frozen Plasma,Gareth Emery,XP8,Wumpscut,Andy Moor. Ocassionally even something like Pendulum,Infected Mushroon or some dubstep. EBM,Trance,Synthpop,Industrial,Dance even some 80's music are the basic genres I would say. As for loud, it varies but I would venture a guess that typical listening is about 100-105db but I often push it right upto the edge when the mood strikes. I do listen to some softer music as well sometimes such as Dream Theater or random guitar/piano/vocal songs that I come across.

Hi Mike, Appreciate the detailed reply but it only serves to confuse me as to which would be more ideal, I see your points as saying they are both great but have different trade offs (as your signature notes its all about compromise, with everything in life). I listen primarily to elecronic music, also some rock/metal/pop. My room is 16x11x8 feet and has a lot of absorption. I like precisely centered clear lifelike vocals, a melodic (warm?) sound with rolled off highs and as much chest slam as one can get (accuracy not required in the bass), I do prefer bass horns and is one of the main reasons I am considering the Jubilee. I also looked into ALtec 815As to be paired with SH50s. For subs I have a pair of Danley BC412s (that are yet to be connected). All that said would there be any particular direction you would recommend? I only ask about this because I am not satisfied with what the SH50's LF section does. I do enjoy what it does in the mid/hf. I suspect that had the SH50 been mated to the Jubilee bass bin I would be satisfied.

I actually don't know which range is import for imaging. Room has more trouble at 200Hz, lot of absorbtion in the room so 10Khz not that bad.

Nice to hear your thoughts Coytee, from the general idea that I have gathered from speaking to people privately and in this thread is that the SH50s and the Jubilee will go toe to toe and it becomes more of a question of preference, except for the bottom regions where the SH50s use what appears to be some TH/vented alignment whereas the Jubilee uses bass horns. Based on my own experience I would be especially inclined to agree with the comment about the bass bin as IMO nothing can ever replace a good FLH, it doesn't matter how many drivers or power one throws at it, direct radiating designs don't sound or feel like a good front loaded horn. So in that respect I think the Jubilee should be better but being a 2/3 way I do question how coherent it would be compared to the SH50 and if it would image as well. I also especially agree with Chris that below 40Hz is best left to a "low bass" solution, the area tends to need displacement and my experiences align with his view that trying to get a single "sub" solution to cover all the way from 20-100/150Hz is just not a good idea. Thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

Thank you for the thoughts, Chris.

Hello Chris, thanks for the reply. Apart from the coverage patterns/responses I was more curious about subjective differences, particularly if anyone has done a side by side. Are there any particular voicings/flavors that may favor certain material? I would guess that the K402 should be more dynamic (please correct me if I'm wrong) but would the Klipsch horn systems have the coherence and imaging of the Danley design? Imaging is particularly important to me, sharp precise life like vocals, that and excellent mid bass slam/punch. I would also be interested to know why you suggest the Jubilee bass bin over Danley tapped horns or the SH50s own LF section.

Hoping someone can give their impressions on how the Jubilee/MCM systems would compare to Danley SH50s.