kramskoi

thanks Shawn...WoW!...how many drivers total for this setup? i assume that the bass is VERY tight at .5 Q. You are correct about f3...all the drivers i've tried with winisd at a .57 Q has a low to mid 30's rolloff and down 7-11 dB at 20 Hz. That is the beef i have with the ufw-10 (ground plane rolloff starts at 35Hz) and i'm wondering if the ufw-12 is eq'd flat to 20Hz or rolls off naturally also. Do you know of any drivers in subwooferdom that have a natural f3 below 30Hz in a sealed design...and won't require a skyscraper sized box to get low? My main concern is the amount of headroom available in the 20-30Hz region...i would need good linearity here and an average spl of "at least" 100dB (<3% THD)...105dB would be ideal. At my listening level, this is more for low distortion than for maximum spl. I'm trying to avoid buying two subs to reach this level of performance. I'm really holding out hope with the ufw-12. My only issue with it is the system Q, which is not stated in the specifications. I need more data and less subjective opinion. I'm beginning to think that the only way to get to f3/20Hz in a sealed design is equalization...otherwise it becomes a space issue. Using the aci sv-12 driver in winisd, calls for a 15 cu ft cabinet for .5 Q and 34Hz/f3 rolling off to -7 dB at 20Hz. I imagine i would have to move to a 15 inch driver. Well if i could swing the ACI maestro at 2,100.00, we would'nt even be having this discussion. On a final note, have you ever checked out the adire rava mk2? I was checking the specs and it seems like a good buy at 800.00. I'm not sure about it's high-density particle board vs. MDF. Good numbers though. Well thanks for the input and Happy holidays to you. MB

Happy holidays and many thanks to all who posted on the "lowdown" sub-12 thread.I'm desperate for any information on the Titan 2LE (sv-12 driver) and how it stacks up against the onix ufw-12 and the adire tumult in a sealed enclosure. I think after much deliberation i'm going to get the most musical sub i can find for <$1200 and just live with it's HT performance. I've slowly come to realize that i've got to up the ante a bit for the output and quality i'm searching for. I'm hoping for a system Q of <.6 per the ACI titan if i decide to DIY a tumult or purchase the ufw-12. The ufw-12 (driver) is VERY impressive at 32lbs (200 oz. of magnet) and i think on par with the tumult driver in quality. I note that the sensitivity of the tumults are a shade less than 84dB vs. 87.7 and 90dB for the titan sv-12. I'm wondering how this all comes out in the wash of SPL. The titan gives away 750 watts and and almost 20mm of xmax to both the tumult and the ufw-12, with ufw-12 measuring 34mm! Nousaine's numbers for the original 12E titan driver fly in the face of some of the subjective evaluations of the sub. The new sv-12 driver is stated by ACI +5dB better @ 20 Hz. I can find no qualitative output data on the sv-12, only that it supposedly plays almost twice as loud as the orignal titan 12E. That being said, this sub is believed by many, to be one of the most balanced and musical subs ever designed. I'm just wondering how much it gives up in output to the tumult and the ufw-12. I believe it's built to a 1.9 cu. ft enclosure and eq'd down to 20 Hz with a sensing circuit and high pass filter to protect the driver below that point. I'm looking, at least, to go flat to 20 Hz (in-room). My room (bedroom) is 1,700 sq ft...the ceilings are 8 feet and there is room (gain) nodes around 27-45 and 70 Hz (22 feet for the longest wall). As a point of reference for SPL, in the movie The Polar Express, when the train first arrives and slowly comes to a stop, my receiver is at -20dB (uncalibrated) and the impact is SUBstantial. Most of my viewing takes place around that dB level, which is over 15 feet from the sub. As noted before, i run the m&k dual 8 and the klipsch IFI sub together and i'm wondering what i would give up (HT) running the IFI with one of the sealed 12's mentioned above. That IFI sub is "very well designed" and one mean little SOB...like the little engine that could.! In a room my size...-10 to -5dB is thunderous (the yamaha rx-v657 goes all the way to +16) and i could'nt stand 2hrs at anything above that range. The opening credits for I Robot had me worried about my little eights...as did War of the Worlds. I think, even though it's actually (3) 8 inch drivers, they are operating at their limits (especially the 125 watt m&k). The current sub package is stellar with music but limited below 30 Hz...which is why i'm looking to move to a 12 inch driver (or two). That and the fact that the DTS trailer won't come through clean unless the sub level is set to -9dB on the receiver. That really chaps my a**. I'm keeping the IFI but the m&k has got to go. Time for some "man" output down low. But I want to keep the bass air-tight, accurate and dynamic. My room has good gain so i think for $1200 i should be able to meet my goal. I've tried trueRTA tone generator and a track from Deep Dish Moscow which has a 2 minute 27 Hz tone pulsation. I can't turn the receiver past -26 dB before audible doubling occurs...you were right EAR!...props to ya!...26 Hz and below is unusable. And m&k claims output below 20 Hz...what a joke! even in-room...It's amazing to hear the output decline so rapidly using trueRTA. It is by far the most fantastic and depressing audio tool available (unless you happen to own the Genelec HTS6). I've narrowed it down to these 3 choices and even (2) ufw-10's might be an option at the budget price of $1K. Regardless, i would like to be satisfied at least for the coming year with this next purchase. If anyone has heard these subs play or have important information relative to them, including DIY experience, please don't hesitate to chime in. I'm not just looking for recommendations but also for more expert subwoofer knowledge. Any and all tidbits are appreciated. Thank you so much...MB

hello and thanks for the response on the sub-12...can you substantiate about the response on the sub-12 vs. the pb-10...have you tested it with AVIA, trueRTA etc.? I note that the FR for the sub-12 is 24 Hz (-3db)...so is this a SPL measurement? Is this an extrapolation or is it actual observed performance numbers?[*-)] I find it amazing that for it's popularity, there is no one that has tested this sub (test tones, frequency sweeps, blind listening a-b, etc.) if only to integrate it properly into their HT/music system...fascinating! Equally fascinating is the lack of head to head reviews of Klipsch vs. other subs. Spending between $500 and 1K for a sub is not a casual thing for most like myself. I'm turned off by the svs-pb10 because of issues with it's internal bracing and tone/pulse (30 Hz) decay (enclosure resonance) and it's lowered "relative" output (though it is amazingly linear) compared to other subs in it's class. It does'nt seem to have much headroom at reference level listening and would appear to operate at it's limits in the most demanding program material. It's really too bad, because i was quite taken with this sub for a while, at least until i ran into the article about the resonance/output problem and it's lack of features. I'm looking for a system Q in the .5 to .7 range and i'm not sure the pb-10 can deliver this. I have an m&k dual 8 which is sealed and i don't want to give up the musicality for mere extension. I'm looking for a sealed sub which is ruler flat to 30 Hz(anechoic) in the $700 range at most...if it's even possible...else i may just go with the vtf-3 from HSU and be satisfied until i can trade up to an onix rocket ufw-12 or better. I like Klipsch products...(my HT uses Synergy mains, surrounds, and a IFI sub stacked with a dual-8 m&k for bass duties)...but subjective opinion backed by hard data is more convincing to me. Please send along anymore tidbits of information on the sub-12...thanks again[]

It's music first and HT second for one of these 3 sub lines. I'm looking for the same musicality of my M&K mx-70 dual 8 or close to it! I'm into classical organ so i'll need good output from 20-30hz. I'm looking at either Klipsch, HSU or SVS. The Sub-12...Is there ANY "independant" data in cyberspace beside "117db @ 30Hz"??? does anyone know how this sub will perform in the 20-25hz range? any data to confirm? i've read that it has more excursion than a pb12-isd and is "critically damped" so as to match as closely as possible (for a vented enclosure) a sealed qtc. of .707. Best Buy have them to go at 485.00 online and 509.00 at my local. The weight of this sub is a major turn-off...compared to svs and hsu. The cone material does'nt seem too impressive either but i have'nt heard anything bad about it's sound quality. I really want to buy it but no head to head testing or other "objective" data seems available online (major turn-off two). How will this thing stack up against a STF-3 or PB-12isd??? thanks...

hello...congrats on the new setup...just went with yamaha rx-v657 klipsch sb-2's and sb-1's in my HT. Now check this out. Dolby Labs advocates setting the surround speakers 2 to 3 feet above the listening position. Since my HT setup is in the bedroom this presented a problem. I don't relish the idea of hanging speakers as heavy as the sb-1's from the wall so i went down to the local Target and man! For 17 usd (8.49 per lamp. higher priced ones will work also but are around 20 usd per) i bought two 70 inch high torchiere's, stripped everything out, ran the 14 gauge cable through the base and tubing...out the top...laid the sb-1's on their sides and sat them on top minus the plastic bulb (torchiere) cover...they sit on a 4-5 inch cone...i plan on adding some high strength contact tape which will secure them against being dislodged. They are not in a high traffic area and HEAVY enough to not be rattled off the cone base even without tape. The heavy black lamp base and 3/4 inch hollow black rod is a perfect match with the cabinet color of the sb-1's...and is not imposing on it's surroundings. At a height of almost 6 feet, it's the perfect solution to my dilemma. Just an idea for you...may or may not be your cup of tea...let me know and i'll send you some pics so you can see for yourself...my girlfriend loves the way it looks. ciao...btw the sb-1's as surrounds are an excellent choice...at $129 per pair, i could'nt pass them up...[]

thx to all who post(ed). Not sure about the RF-7 because i'm a bookshelf type i guess. I'm in lOvE with the THX Ultra2 setup! This system oozes -"I mean business!" and i much prefer the cinematic, black look of the mains and surrounds. My girlfriend likes the KS-525 and it's angles. The Ultra2 is what put me on the path, and i have to admit that my heart sank when i discovered how much each component costs. Hey, maybe i'll win the lottery eh?. Speaking of the ultra2...here's a laugh. There is a KL525 being sold on Ebay and someone made a 70.00 offer to the seller, who politely and with much wit, declined. I've seen the newer, prettier synergy3's at best buy but i opted for the minimal "cinematic black" of the previous edition...plus, i got all 5 components for 500.00 with no shipping charge but with factory authorization. I REALLY wanted to get the HSU sub first, but after discovering DTS sound with my new audigy2 zs, i feel like i'm missing out with the 2.1 setup. This little pcmia card surprises me everyday. I'm currently running the dvd toslink to my soundcard and the IFI system with the sub stacked on top of the m&k mx-70 (i was enamored with this little push-pull dual-8 until i ran it though trueRTA, ugh!). I know this is an unorthodox mix but it's quite loud and clean. The after shocks of the depth charge scene from U- 571 in DTS came off rather well. And jurassic3 was quite dynamic. I think i have enough spl, just not enough extension. My girlfriend has an RCA rt2280/500 watt receiver but i'm wary of using it with the new system. Hokey watt ratings from too many manufacturers. Why is this? My friends 1002 watt JVC htib is rated 167w/ch @ 3 ohms @ 10%THD @ 1kHz???? The RCA is rated 80w X 5 @ 8 ohms, 0.9% THD @ the "nefarious" 1kHz frequency. I'm wondering if i can expect at least 50w clean power? It's bandwith response is a rather embarrassing 40Hz on the bottom end, so it's a good thing i have powered subs. I would only use its 6 ch. in function because it only has dolby digital (ugh!). I can use it to amplify though. I thought about just buying a good multichannel power amp but needless to say, it is cost prohibitive. If i can get some decent sound from the RCA, i'll get the sub next followed by the yamaha. If not, i guess the sub will have to wait. But regardless, i should wrap this all up by the end of January. I'll have all 5 separates by next wed. so then i can start my experimentations. Well thanks everyone and "Ultra2 4-ever"...

I don't know what started this all. But one day in September 2005, i forget which one, i started on this escalating audio fetish. I guess it was my old 2100 altec lansing multimedia system frying itself and my (yes i'm gonna say it) WalMart Durabrand 100 watt HTIB system doing the same, that's prompted the current binge. I started with a few sub-satellite systems from Wal-mart of course and then i started learning about test tones and subwoofer performance. I downloaded true RTA and the rest is history. In the space of 2 months, i've gone through two altec lansing systems, the Klipsch promedia 2.1 THX, an M&K mx-70 (which i still use) and of course the new IFI system. If i'd listened to "theEAR" and paid more attention to his posts, i could've saved myself about 1000.00. I'm kicking myself and still not satisfied. Does this ever end? I thought at first, that a good 2.1 system would be sufficient but after reading about the Klipsch THX ultra2 system i'm going to make a plunge for some respectable sound. I'm 36 and have never owned any decent stereo/theater equipment but that is about to change. I've decided, with much anguish, on the HSU vtf-2 mk 2 sub (SVS pb-10 is still a thought), Klipsch SB-2's for mains, SB-1's for surround and the acoustech HT-65 for center. I know...i've sinned against philedom with the HT-65, but it matches the frequency response, driver and horn size of the mains. ON PAPER it's sensitivity is 96 dB and since i practically stole it off of EBAY, i thought i'd give it a listen. Hopefully it's not as bad as the forum is saying. Everyone likes to think they're getting a deal right? Well to amend for the Acoustech debacle, i'm going to go with the Yamaha rx-v657 for it's power, clarity and parametric features. Maybe i can get the HT-65 to sound okay with it. I really wanted to go with the Reference line but the RB-15 got bad reviews for sound coloration on stereophile. I'm not sure about the RB-25. It plays 5Hz lower than the SB-2 and is rated a little less at 75 watts. Aside for +1dB in efficiency and a stiffer cone i tried to justify the extra 75.00 vs. other needs. This whole system is going to brush 2000.00 by the time i'm through and it's more than i've EVER spent at one time. My best friend gave me a funny look when i told him what the final price would be. He has a JVC TH-C5 1002 watt HTIB and i can't quell the need to try and show him up. Hopefully, this little project will satisfy me until i can get into the RB-35/75 class. And maybe by then, i will have shed my issues with 12-inch drivers (i really like the 12-inch line of SVS subs). There are NO places where i can audition either SVS or HSU. I welcome any recommendations, observations, criticisms and talking points.

thanks Ear...i guess you're the one to talk to on this board...keep the technicals coming...the asking price is in the 260-$300.00 range...Let me ask you this...what level of output (in dB) at 25 Hz would be required to cause a subtle rattling? I live in an apartment with a 24x16 ft. living room; heavily furnished. I was listening to a track from the Titanic soundtrack (hard a' starboard i think) and near the end of that track there is a low-level pulsing like the catepillar system on 'Hunt for Red October'. This pulsing was pretty audible even at a moderate listening level with the 6.5sub (it sounds like covering your ears and hearing your heartbeat). Now given the roll-off of sealed vs. ported, the doubling of a larger driver and roughly 2-3x the power, do you think it's feasible to expect a 3-6dB rise in output for the level of this pulsing. I'm not sure what frequency it is but i'd be surprised if it is not near 30Hz. Excusing my ignorance, is any freeware available to test this pulse. Or perhaps you can recommend some reference music to test with. I would greatly appreciate it. If i can get that pulse twice as loud as it is now (at below reference level), i would be satisfied...for a while at least. And maybe i'll add another 70B or 700. I know that some dual-12's are as musical but i have to bring myself to believe it. It's curious that MK does'nt offer a dual-10. A dual-12 set-up would probably bring local law enforcement over for doughnuts. The other subs that i'm looking at are the Klipsch RW-8 and the Klipsch IFI ipod system with its newly designed 8inch sub (27Hz??). Anyway, thanks for the input.

hello...new here...i may be able to purchase a used mx-70B but i don't know how old it is or it's power rating. The specs give 27Hz +-3dB and i'm wondering how much presence there is below that point, given it's dual-8 design. Have you ever heard one fire? My living room is irregular shaped and about 3,000 cu ft with pretty good acoustics. I currently have the promedia 2.1THX set-up and the bass level is pretty consistent throughout the listening area. I'm hoping to go deeper and more accurate than the current config. I thought, considering the promedia sub is a single 6.5 and rated only 50w rms, that this would hit a little harder and cleaner. I don't really need to shake the walls but i do want a little slam. I'm not concerned with max spl's just low-to mid level accuracy, good transient response and a fatter bottom end. The 2.1 THX hits admirably but it's limited power and port noise is extremely annoying. Any thoughts?.Thanks

does the IFI sub approach the distortion characteristics of the RW-8? or its's max output (103dB) @ 30Hz? what is the real world difference between <2% (RW-8) and the "unofficial" <5% THD of the IFI (@ RMS power)? I just bought the promedia 2.1-THX a week ago but i'm growing increasingly irritated with it's port noise. The pro2.1 sounds capable with most material, but collapses with others. I did'nt realize that the sub is only rated 50watts RMS @ = 7% THD, 40 - 100 Hz. Needless to say, i'm looking for something cleaner, more accurate, and more intimidating. I much prefer tight, and precise low end extension rather than max SPL's. I'm reading "very" good things about the RW-8 and even more good things about the IFI sub. It's going to be one or the other of these because the RSW-10! is little more bit than i can chomp right now. I'm not thrilled with the A/B amplifier on the RW-8, but 125watts/rms @ <2%THD seems much more powerful than the pro2.1. It makes me wonder what the RMS power is for the pro2.1 @ the same distortion level. I would like the flexibility of a 2.1 satellite system but i'm prepared to go another way if the difference is appreciable. If the "unofficial" power numbers are correct, i can live with that, providing the IFI sub can get within range of the RW-8 in presence and sound quality.