meagain

In this case, it was the source material. But yes, the S's & T piercing goes away with the auto HK setting. So I know it can be tweaked somehow. I'm listening to Peter Gabriel's 'Up' album. Track 2: "Growing Up". Some cymbal crashes are a bit painful at high volumes. Though I imagine no matter how clean, cymbal crashes can hurt at very high volumes compared to other stuff. Then when I switch to the HK's auto mode, that is fixed, but it bury's other stuff down more that I'd rather hear more upfront like brushes on the drums.

Mike - I emailed you. I was skeptical about the foam from the get go. And if the khorns use the walls, I would think foam on the horiz area would 'cut' the wall up? IDK Jeff - The 2 options the HK afford me are quite different. One ('manual' or real) is almost echoey/hall-like/hollowish sounding on the upper ranges. Some harshness/uncomfortableness. Lower stuff sounds pretty darned good. The other, (HK's take on it via their little microphone on a wire test thingy) removes this (warms it up) but goes overboard. Too rich, almost muddled, and I lose detail in the mid? and possibly higher ranges. I almost want to up the treble to acommodate it but when I played with that - it helped a tad but didn't cut it. While it eliminates any harshness, I lose crispness & it pushes some mid stuff too far back. Drums/bass sound great to me though either way. Was watching Primus 'Halucinogentics' DVD the other day and OMG - Tim Alexanders's drums were so clear & tight sounding. I wish I had a gadget that would tell me specifically where my issues were as it's hard to describe. But if I could find a happy medium between the 2 above, I'd be pretty happy for the immediate future. Sorry - it's hard to describe.

Yes I have separate bass/treble controls, but it doesn't cut it for what I want to do.

Allan Songer - What DO you listen to? I think this is semi-important to the discusssion of these things. What do you use for gear? We listen to a very wide variety. Everything really - except for Country. Tuit - are you saying the Crowns don't do very well at normal or low listening levels as they do for very high? Cuz they were designed for loud? We would only listen to 'blasting' levels if we were sitting there staring at the wall for a listening session. Otherwise, hubby listens at low volumes to more mellower music (jazz/classical) on Sunday mornings while reading the paper. Or when puttering around the house cleaning, etc. on a Saturday - we wouldn't necessarily be blasting it either as we'd need to talk occasionally. It's important to be able to have it sound great both loud & soft. I want it all. Mike - Way back a zillion pages in this thread, you mentioned about foam on the horizontal part of the top? of the bass bin. I was unclear if you felt that should or shouldn't be foamed. We foamed it. I'm wondering if I should try taking it off. The email system works ok as I'm getting a few emailing me advise off the forum. I'll shoot you an email so you can reply to me. I know via reading that this Behringer EQ is going to be tricky to learn & I'll make hubby read the manual (he's not really good about this) as I feel it will be beyond my scope. But I'll make sure we learn as much as possible before resorting to questions. Here's my current critique. Prior to snugging/foaming into the corners & adding thicker speakerwire - I think they sounded better. A bit. Actually, we almost felt like we lost bass after the tweak. I think I have it back, but my problems are more on the high end whether played loud or soft. I have basically 2 setting on this HK. Using the HK's internal semi-EQ, and manual. Manual is a bit harsh at spots. Vocal "S's" and "T's" can be piercing. In a certain range - there's a 'hall-like' effect. Airey. Bass is great tho. Using HK's auto pilot - it fixes these problems but goes overboard to make things a bit muddled and I lose some mid/high. What we want is a happy medium between the 2 and can't tweak it. I need a gadget that can tweak it. Hopeing the EQ will allow this. Basically, I want a mixing board sitting on my coctail table. This all might be the room's fault but I'm frustrated I can't tweak. I'm thinking the EQ will allow this?

I don't believe this Jeff. It's a vast assumption you're making. I'm not losing notes when we crank this 65wpc (80-85 peak). It's just not happening. We have decent ears here. Hubby's a muscian and not just one that does it 'by ear'. He can tell you exactly what notes are being played at any given section of a song. We are NOT hearing any drop off anywhere when cranked. We are not losing dynamics either. You're telling me something's happening that we don't hear. And what you are saying is happening here - is VERY dramatic, in your face, and it sounds like we'd certainly hear it or we're deaf. Especially the clipping you are saying we must be getting.

Also - are we keeping in mind the unique sensitivity of these speakers? The efficiency factor? They aren't normal - right? Don't they handle power differently and REALLY efficiently? Are we talking about normal speakers or klipsches? There's a difference- yes? Duke - You said you rotate about 4 speakers every month or so. Do you need that 400wpc (or whatever) for the Khorns? Or do you need it cuz you use the amp to run the JBLs etc?

I should have started another thread. I do not listen to easy listening type stuff at low volumes. I want to be able to blast the house into outerspace if I want BUT - I want it to sound great also. I think these speakers are capable of that. There's no doubt in my mind. I like knowing that. I did one thing right - for sure. 1. About low watt tubes vs. mega watts. I'm having a conceptual problem with both. I don't see the point in having 400 wpc when I only use 60, and I can't see being able to crank a 20, 30, 40 wpc as loud as I need. 2. I have another conceptual problem with the assumption that my new HK is cr*p by people who I bet never heard them or peg it as cr*p just because it's new and therefore HAS to be bad? Or that I MUST BE hearing distortion, lack of dynamics, clipping at loud volumes without being here. 3. I'm willing to upgrade but only if I can hear a difference/improvement via testing without purchase. Everyone raves about that Sonic Impact $25-30 amp and we couldn't even go through a whole song with it before yanking in disgust. It was awful. It's in the basement. As is the 1984 Yamaha receiver that's also inferior sounding than this HK. I can see a very real possibility of me dumping bucks into a new amp and it not being as good as the HK. And I believe it boils down to what's being listened to, but that shouldn't be. There should be some semblance of absolute facts but I'm not finding them. Am I right in my assumption that an older tube or older receiver that only goes to 40 wpc - won't be able to be cranked as loud as 65 wpc? Am I missing something? If right, then I can't see going lower in wpc no matter what the form. It would be a downgrade - right?

But we love the bass. Don't need more and what's there is beyond punch. It's the one area we're thrilled with. To us, it's deep, tight, & punchy. It's the last thing we have an issue with. First - I only have YYZ on the Rio DVD for some reason so I don't think it would be a good test as I'm not fond of Rio's sound quality. 2nd - I believe the EQ will get me more in the ballpark. I don't expect it to be a panacea. But my listening room isn't pristine. There's probably a zillion things in the physical setup that is affecting my sound negatively. While we plan to remodel the house to create a better room, it's still not going to be pro level. I'm not going to put panels everywhere, etc. I feel the EQ will 1) tell me alot about my system & where its lacking, 2) help me to attain better sound with the given circumstances and 3) be able to be used in various situations as well as even allow hubby to take it to band practice to do things with it. But most of all 4) even if I ramp up to foofoo tubes, pre-amps, mega gear - I feel I'll always have to contend with the room and can tweak things even if minorly to get more towards nirvana. For $280-300, it just makes practical sense to me. At least as a first buy. Jeff - Maybe if you got one, YOU'D have better sound. Maybe you can't imagine it possible, but you never know! [] I'm certainly willing to ramp up to tubes or your Crown stuff, etc. But right now I'm thinking this EQ might help. In the meantime, I'll ask hubby if he has any amps at practice that we can play with. I doubt it tho'. Mark here offered to bring over his McIntosh which I hope I don't fall in love with cuz I think it's roughly a $2500-3000 piece. I'm not saying the speakers aren't suffering. Just that they don't suffer more or get worse when at louder volumes.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone likes this Sonic Impact guy. We tried it on the khorns and it sounded appallingly bad. Didn't try the batteries. Used the cord. It was so bad we couldn't finish the song. Perhaps we did something wrong but it's a pretty simple setup - right? It puzzles me why people like this thing. I must be missing something. Aviserated - I'm looking forward to your critque of it.

Jeff - Yes, I read the 'volume' thread. You went from Cornwalls to Khorns and I understand why you could crank the Khorns louder. BillH - We are not happy with the sound. I 'know' they can sound better. We want to tweak things but don't have the means to do so. Hence it's looking like we're going to buy this Behringer EQ that's been discussed here. But what I'm saying is, the current sound does not suffer or change when we crank it which is my issue with needing a bazillion more WPC. They are suggesting I have more distortion, less dynamics, less punch, clipping, etc. and I'm just not getting that with a volume crank. We're just not hearing it. I love how these sound loud. There's just certain 'qualities' we would tweak but currently cannot. But to say we lose anything or the sound suffers at high volumes just by virtue of turning it up - wouldn't be accurate in my experience. The quality seems consistant when cranked seriously loud.

Jeff - If the distortion is there & Hubby & I can't hear it, then it must also in the lower volume range cuz I only hear 'better' when I crank these. That's all I know. I hear nothing suffering when I crank it. I'm willing to concede I could have a better amp (tubes, crown, or otherwise), but I'm just saying when I crank it, neither of us hears any suffering of quality at mega high levels. I beg to differ on the volume though. If your listening room is surrounded by glass shelving with little trinkets sitting on them, I don't care if you have your crown or my HK - If the bass is there, it's going to cause them to dance around on the glass at high volumes. I believe this. Am I wrong? How can I be? Also, I don't care what quality of gear you have or how pristine the sound is - if beyond a certain level (no matter how clean), I believe your ears will get trashed. You can only go so high till damage sets in. I question that just because it sounds non-irritating/clean/pure/pristine - the mere VOLUME has a limit to ear damage level. There's a limit even if you don't feel it. I believe this. Am I wrong? How can I be?

But see, when I'm going 80mph in this Toyota (cranking WAY up to ear damage levels), I'm not hearing any distortion, noise, laboring/clipping. It's just not there. I can't turn it up higher unless I want things in the house falling off shelves, etc - or trashing my ears. I could if I wanted to. I have only 10 more points on the volume to try if I wanted to, but I did my max. Hubby won't go to my max. So I'm hard-pressed to see why I need more WPC. It just sounds clear & distortion free to our ears at our max tolerable volume. Which is really high. The dynamics are there and I hear zero hiss, etc. Bass is amazing & tight. Maybe if the room was bigger or we were father away from the speakers. I also re-read TomPreston's, CalBlacksmith's, and Colin's posts here around page 2-3 or so and this makes sense to me? I just don't see needing 300 or so watts if I'm not hearing distortion or anything other than a louder version. But I can't see going lower in wattage as I see this as downgrading? And I wouldn't get the volume I have now. Yes?

I don't feel bad, because No one has yet to tell me why my HK receiver is bad and why the old HK's are so much better. Tiger - about your HK630... I think it has 40 wpc? I'm at 65 with a max of 80 and when I want it blazing loud, I'm not too too far from the edge of where it goes. I'm thinking I wouldn't be able to turn a 40 watter up loud enough? Unless I'm missing something. And can I plug everything into it? TV, etc? My Yamaha is sitting on a shelf in the basement because of this. How does one get around this? Same with these tube amps I'm seeing. I see hardly any ports or controls. Heck, I don't even see an 'on' switch or volume on most of the pics. No bass/treble controls? Not to mention a remote. I'm thinking this Behringer EQ might be the way to go for me. In my mind, no matter what I get - I'd still need this. I can't see being in the position of not being able to control anything, and while we plan to remodel the room around the khorns - don't plan to add panels, etc. in the room. I'm thinking what good is sinking big bucks into these tube amps if one doesn't have the most pristine listening environment. Would that not be like putting a bandaid on a 3" wide open wound? The problems might still be there right? Then where do you go? Surely tubes wouldn't compensate for any environment issues - right? Seems I should get the EQ, see how it goes, then upgrade later if need be? But I'd like to hear why these old HK's are better than what I have. Do they have tubes in them? Is that it? Oh - we got one of those Sonic T amps everyone raves about for some reason. Tried it on the khorns and yanked it in short order. It sounded appalling. Lifeless, flat, tinny, dull, zero bass, zero most everything. It was abysmal. Tried everything we could think of to improve the sound. Plugged them into the HK and it was like "ahhhh". Night & day. That's scarey, and I'm hard pressed to spend several hundreds (or thousands) when I fear I could get a similar letdown? EDIT: Tiger - I sent you an email.

But a speaker is more a physical thing IMO. Wood, speakers, some wireing. And it seems most are changing their electronics in their speakers. So what is the value of twin power? And more 'headroom'?

Yep! Your HK was good for KG4's. Not for Khorns. Think of it like this. Would you put a VW transmission in a Corvette? Because this is a speaker forum, the amp issue is much neglected in favor of far less important things. You've got the speakers; now, get the amp. Crossovers will not do the trick. They might help some, but go back to the qualities in your previous thread that you said you wanted. You're not going to get there with crossovers. Crossovers are more of a tweak - maybe an important one. But they will not supply the power element you are missing. The punch requires some real power from a clean amp. And as for the barely audible little bells you want to hear. You'll get them at moderate levels, but not at loud levels. I think once you start blowing down doors, pin drops are a little hard to hear. 1. WHY is my $650 HK receiver not good enough for khorns? 2. WHY is said receiver inferior to an older version selling on ebay for $50-75 bucks or so? 3. What is wrong with my receiver that you're saying it wouldn't have enough power and 'clean' power? 4. Why do you consider my receiver a VW? (actually, LOL what's wrong with VW's?) (BTW - I said I DID hear the bell on that song. I never heard it before. This is good).

May I ask what is so great about this old cheap receiver? Over the new versions? I guess I don't get it. And I want to.

Mikebse - Wow. Nice post. I told hubby we needed an EQ but he didn't listen. Now he's wanting to get one. He's saying he feels it's the one thing that will make the biggest difference. We're pretty happy, but want to tweak things more than this receiver will allow. He's looking at an Alesis(sp?) digital deal with memory for up to 60 settings (which would be pretty nice to have) and now looking at the Behringer stuff. I just sent him your post. We'll go down your checklist to triple check everything. I'm hopeing I can get least get away with using a good pre-amp? I sure like all the bells/whistles of this harman (remote, etc) and it would be nice to retain that and kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I knew you guys would make me spend more money! That's OK, it's important. [] EDIT: Girl question... Would there be anything comparable to the Behringer that happened to have blue lights? [:$]

Jeff - I promise I'll look into the amp issue after the holidays. Tiger - is there any way to easily tell if my caps are faulty? I've had many suggestions to minimally upgrade the caps and will definitely look into it. The whole crossover area is pristine looking to me so - is there something I should look for with my caps? Or is there a gadget to test them? Hubby found some piece of software to hook to a mic to test. Probably not as good as this Behringer thing, but it's free so we're going to start with that? I think now alot of this is my receiver. It basically has 2 choices, auto & manual. Been switching between auto (doing this ez set eq gadget deal) and manual and see now a few manual settings weren't right. Also there is some sort of 'crossover' section where I see everything is set to 40hz. I think we're to set this for what the speaker does and I know the khorns aren't at 40. I think I need to change this. Going to investigate now but I think I might be on the verge of greatness here.

Ricktate - Yes, this is bigger than 1" foam. It's about the size of a spray can of Pledge furniture spray. I'm hesitant to remove wires, etc. cuz the bass sounded great before the changes so first I want to address just the changes we made. Oh, we also swapped out the thick 1"? MDF slab with a longer piece. Old MDF went 16.5" beyond the rear side grill edge and now extends maybe 3'. When I asked hubby about the phase issue, he laughed and said "we'd know if it was wrong. It would be blatant". Hubby feels it's not the speaker wire so maybe I should first remove the foam and test. EDIT: Embarassingly, this might be a receiver issue. [:$] Has some sort of built-in EQ with an "EZ-set" feature that calibrates the speakers, etc. I think something's changed and we need to re-run it or tweak manually. This receiver is ridiculously complicated. I think this might be the problem as I turned things off/on - we did a "oh yes, better!" deal. Ooop!

Ricktate - I didn't undo that wire/screw from the inductor mostly cuz IDK what the inductor is. I can't imagine anything is mis-wired cuz hubby's pretty good. I know if I ask, he'll dismiss this as a possibility - but will. The foam pipe insulation was split open and shoved on the edge of the vertical 'tail-fins' then another horiz piece across the top of bass bin area. There was another kind of gasket/foam type thing at Home Depot that involved tape. Hubby called me from the store and we decided to go with the cheaper pipe foam route as a test. The foam appears pretty thick. I'd say?? 2" wide? Yes, I got my wire gauges a**-backwards.. The wire was thinner than 14g on initial setup, then upgraded to thicker than 14g last night. Hubby found his missing detail (some sax & bass clarinet part) on the Miles Davis' 'Amandela' track after this change, but now he questions if it's cuz the bass is just chilled out more to allow him to hear it clearly. He played a Kevin Gilbert song that had 1-2 hits of a bell in the entire song. He said on many systems he's heard, you can't even hear it. Others are very soft. I personally didn't even know this bell sound was in the song till last night. The bell was so loud & distinct that it shocked me. (cool) Vocals, etc sound amazing too. Can practically hear any spittle hitting the mic. But right now, I think on most stuff, I'd want to crank the bass up from zero to +2db. Will play again after coffee & waking up. Right now, hubby is stoked about these speakers. Keeps saying 'Amazing' & shakes his head. But he's not the bass freek that I am. Tonight we listen to bass & harder stuff. But Did we put the foam on wrong maybe? I've been a bit skeptical about this foam idea from the get go. I wonder if the speakers need the small corner part of the wall junction that the foam is now blocking? Wondering also if the speakers 'use' walls for the bass that when sound hits the foam it's being semi-absorbed into it? Is that possible? Ricktate - What is the "woofer door"? Mark - I sent hubby your post on the DeeDee stuff & before he went to bed tossed that CD in my lap. Tonight we give a listen. Taking suggestions as to what specifically to look for or what song(s) to choose.

OK - we tweaked things & listened. Not sure how/why, but I seem to have lost my bass that before bathed me in splendor. It doesn't go as deep, bass pedals & drums seem a bit higher and the whole effect is very "hall-like". Like it's distant, more airey. Hubby agrees with me. I've triple checked the receiver settings and it's all the same. Other than moving it an inch closer & adding the foam pipe, speaker wire was upgraded from under 14 to 16g? Grey stuff from Home Depot. Bass not as deep and almost echoish. Can't make the house or my innerds rumble. I'm puzzled. Tomorrow is another day.

Quick question.... At the bottom of the rear 'tail fin' as I call it - the vertical board that's about 8" wide... There's a cut out at the bottom about 8" from the floor. Should the pipe insulation not go there? Obviously, it wouldn't touch the wall so I think we shouldn't put it there. yes?

Larry - Fantastic info! I'm saving all this. Everyone's been most helpful to me and I really appreciate it! Mark - I didn't know there was actually a store around that had khorns set up. Amazing. The wall these are on is about 12' wide. If that. We hope to remodel and when we do, will design the room for these babies. JBSL - Yep great info and besides helping me, I'm sure it's helped some lurkers. Thanks guys! Hubby's playing with things now, first order of biz is to change out the speaker wire from pathetic to proper. (Old monster didn't fit or something). Will let you know if we hear an improvement. Though I must say, they do sound pretty kick butt. Better than most of the big bucks stuff I heard at the audio stores. I was so dissapointed when shopping. Figured unless we pony'd up mega bucks, we'd be screwed. I still can't believe how lucky I got to have found them.

Wow! Yes! Very helpful. I didn't realize that (and I should have). I also don't really see the bass has a horn because it has the typical round thingy. I'll relay this info to hubby and after we position them better, have him listen to his Miles Davis issues again. I don't even have 1/2 the side grills on. LOL - Don't tell me 'that' matters also! [:$] Mark - Sounds interesting. Maybe we can talk about this after the holidays? You might however be appalled at the size of the room these are in. I'm listening to Stone Temple Pilots & Depeche Mode now before he comes home and gets all jazzy on me. DM sounds great through these! I need new windows, cuz these rattle.

Cal - Interesting. The last thing I want is a flabby bass. I'll save that info. Coytee - Wow. Maybe I could have hubby try to score on one of those gadgets. Am I correct in understanding that you fixed this problem by just tweaking the physical room? I've been listening to alot of bass and I'm just loving it. But no one really answered this.... Does snugging them in properly do anything for the horns? Am I wrong in thinking it was just to help the bass?