Raider
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Posts posted by Raider
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FWIW, If you have an HH Gregg in your area, the one here just started stocking Klipsch Synergy stuff. However, I have been in three times in three weeks, and each time they tell me they haven't hooked them up yet. Maybe they have bilnd faith in Klipsch's advertising ability. Really a shame, because the Synergy stuff is actually quite good, especially at its price point.
I know it takes a financial investment, but it never ceases to amaze me that store expect you to buy audio gear without hearing it. I guess next they'll try to sell TV's without demonstrating a picture.
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I can't believe no comments... I thought this would be helpful?
Amazing what threads take off sometimes.. And how others die. LOL.
Well. hey I appreciated it.
I'm in the process of setting up an HT system in both my bonus room (rectangular), and in my family room (on a 45 degree angle) so it couldn't have come at a better time.
I have about decided to use towers front and rear, with a center and center rear, so this really helps me lay out the room.
Thanks
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Check out Diamond Audio and JLAudio. Both have very good sounding speakers at reasonable prices and are well regarded. Generally stay away from brands that the big box guys handle, you can do better for the dollar. Be sure to take a familiar CD with you that you really like, and pick what sounds good to you. Shops are notorious for having demo discs that will dazzle you on most any system. Buy what sounds good to YOU. Generally speaking the speakers that dazzle you on a demo board will be harsh in your car. Take time to listen, and shy away from any that have any abrasive characteristic. Good luck.
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Has Klipsch introduced any new products at CEDIA?
Of particular interest might be a line of speakers positioned slightly above the Reference line, which when previewed at previous shows indicated a possible fall 2006 introduction.
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IMO, FWIW, a sub should just extend the system response to the lowest limit of hearing. Where only 30 or even 40 hz response was needed previously as dictated by the practical limitations of analog mediums, most all digital mediums are now mixed including material down to the threshold of hearing. Indeed, such material is now commonplace, if not expected by the consumer.
So all a sub should do is extend the response of the system lower to allow balanced representation of that lowest octave information. If the listener desires to hear that information.
The "need" for subs revolves around practical matters. There is no replacement for displacement. What a separate sub allows is for the main speakers to be a more managable size and be more easily integrated into the room in terms of visual aesthetics. It is certainly possible to produce a main speaker that extends through the lowest octave; its just that most folks can't/won't accept the size that is required.
The best subs as Carl points out are well-integrated into the system to the point that they draw NO attention to themselves, but allow focus on the MUSIC, which is for most folks the true measure of a system ( an inherent Klipsch strength for many).
So subs are basically a tradeoff of priorities. Is that lowest-octave information important enough for you to embrace the physical solution required for it? For many this is even a contextual decision. Lowest octave response might be considered essential in a home theatre, but not in a car. For a guy who is in his car alot, the opposite might be true. And in some cases, it might be desired in an HT application - except late at night. So its an individual decision of personal priorities.
And the system should accurately present the information, according to your priority, without drawing attention away from enjoyment of the experience.
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Besides the DSP capability of the RW-12d, how does the performance of the RW-12d compare to the Sub-12 sonically? I have a choice of buying the 12d as part of a Reference system in which it would be discounted, or buying the Reference system speakers and going to BB and purchasing the Sub12 separately. The price is close enough to call a draw, so which would perform the best? Coming at it from a different direction, if the performance is very close, how effective is the DSP section of the 12d? Using the IR port, can it be controlled by most remotes?
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All well and very good,
but this may get the site blocked by the filters at my work site. Wouldn't be able visit Klipsch at lunch.
Not seeing anything here that I haven't seen a few times before that'd be worth that.
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My response was a bit prickly. But I thought the question was a bit prickly too. Smile.
Actually I had a go round with a friend at the office today where there was mutually prickly-ness. Prickly-ness escallation where each thinks the other initiated the prickly-ness war and the the only dignified response is similar prickly-ness.
Eventually this leads to a stand off where both wish to avoid death by mutual prickly-ness.
We ended up good buddies again. Hopefully, same here. Smile.
It seems we are converging on the size issue. I'm pointing out that the cabinets can't get that large. You are pointing out that they can be integrated into the civil engineering. We agree!
Gil
No problem here.
I sometimes come across more agressively or blunt than i intend; something I'm working on.
I also have the inalienable right to be wrong. It's in the constitution somewhere I'm sure.
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It is a legit question. But.
I myself, am a bit annoyed that some of the question implies a sell-out by Klipsch and failure to meet modern day demands.
The K-Horn goes to 32 Hz. Some want 16 Hz. Failure to provide this shows the company is trapped in an avuncular technology which can be easily updated if they were not living in the far distant past. Such is the implication.
Not so.
Bigger bass horns can be made. The problem, as descibed by others above, is that they become larger than the room in which they must sit.
Gil
Unfortunate that you are annoyed. Not my intent.As noted in the thread ealier, Klipsch's business model seems to be working admirably well. They are acquiring, not being acquired. They seem to be pursuing a diverse model not unlike Harman International's collection of brands. If left to run autonomously, each division can benefit from synergistic resource access. Particularly noteworthy is that this is being done with private capital. So I admire the business model and its execution.
As far as any sell out or failure to meet modern day demands, in a post in the technical section regarding Klipsch's use of tapered array technology in some of their crossovers, you will find that I assert that Klipsch's selection of technology to complement the horn tweeter's inherent strengths is for lack of a better term, brilliant. So I have much respect for the current engineering group's capabilities. So much so that I will likely purchase a Reference system in the next few weeks, and I know no better validation of their engineering ability than to vote with my wallet.
If there is then, an implication it is that I am confident that there resides within Klipsch engineering the ability to bring a catalytic horn-loaded sub-bass product to market in an innovative way.
My observation is that there is an emerging market within home theatre and commercial systems for a product that Klipsch is well positioned to breach, if not dominate. Whether or not it is economical to do so may be another story.
But having come from the DIY side, I have seen posts where someone was building a horn in a false wall behind his front-projector screen. Another built a horn sub under the riser for his theatre seating. Another took a design from Fitzmaurice, and used it to load a horn he built ito an adjacent room of his basement. And I have also seen a flurry of activity with companies like Danley, Fitzmaurice, Pi and others that are all attempting to breach this market.
So I think Klipsch has the opportunity, with a flagship product to make a statement here.
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The danley is a tappered horn and uses short and such mouth to create with the backwave of the horn to produce the bass response. Danley worked for many fields relating to nasa and he built subs more capable then the dts20 but is it logical to have a nuclear power generator in the backyard cause in the long run it is cheaper or just use electricity from the town like everyone else?
Also what you said above sounds more like a infinite baffle than horn loaded sub......
In the same way the bass bin of a Klipschorn loads into the corner of the room as the last fold of the horn, I was suggesting that Kilpsch could build a sub bass horn module that could load an architectural element (riser, false wall, corridor, etc) build to spec in a room to serve as the last fold of the horn. Not suggesting an infinite baffle at all, though many use these and get great results.
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the lower the hertz the direct correlation to a bigger horn mouth. To get a horn mouth of 20 hertz value I believe you need a 5 feet wide and 20 feet long horn! That is called bigger than most rooms can hold let alone waf. Also Danley labs uses a tapper horn that uses a system that accounts for a overly short horn to do some magical stuff.
Yes Klipsch makes subwoofers that are horn loaded. But its pro stuff and does not do well below 32 hertz. And its as big as most home fridgerators. Yeah, umm its hard to make big horns. Physics are Physics
Absolutely. And I fundamentally understand the physics involved. Not nearly to degree of most here, but I do understand the fundamentals.
So while the physics haven't changed, the market has.
The industry itself has changed. Most high end systems are now sold as part of an integrated package by custom installation companies that are either an off-shoot of brick-and-mortar businesses, or more often these days, by custom installation companies that have no show-room presence. Many are subsidiary companies of related businesses such as HVAC, alarm, and often commercial sound companies.
I have interesting conversations with a friend of mine who left a premier high-end audio company here and now specializes in custom audio/video installations. His average installation is $30,000. Average. Many in the area I live in will invest as much as 20% of their total new home cost, or renovation cost in audio/video/electronics. Most of these systems are done simultaneously as part of an architectural element, including integrated sound treatment.
Paul's original intent was for the Klipshorn to use the corner walls as the last phase of the folding horn. For 32 hz response that was arguably sufficient for the media at the time. The dimensions required by the physics to get a lower response are noted above in the first of this post. 5" wide 20' long or so. Given the realities of the HT market now, I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that the last fold of the horn could be built into the room itself, as part of the overall installation. Behind a false wall. Underneath a riser for theatre chairs. Within an adjacent attic, crawlspace, or room. Maybe think of the folded horn subbass assembly as a "driver" that will load the last phase of the horn as architectural element of the room itself. The last phase of the horn could be built to Klipsch provided specification (similar to THX specs) as engineered by Klipsch. To me this is the next logical step from where PWK might have gone.
Interestingly, this thread here bears this out. About half way through, the Klipsch owner provides pictures of his home addition and HT/family room.
http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/692856.aspx
Note the use of a Danley sound sub-horn integrated as part of the architectural revision.
Note the integration of a state-of-the-art HT room within a family living space, with Klipschhorns no less. Well done.
So I think success for Klipsch in producing a folding horn sub may lie in embracing the dynamics of today's market, and following the logical extension of PWK's original Klipshorn approach.
In the meantime, I find it interesting, and indicative of a degree of disconnect between Klipsch's market and engineering departments the way the new Reference subs are (or more to the point are not) promoted. In actuality, the sub is designed much like the Klipschorn, to be loaded into the corner of the room. Yet there is only fleeting reference to this in the promotional literature, IMO is should have been pivotal as a way of linking new product to core philosophies and concepts. No wonder then that I haven't seen a Reference IV sub yet displayed in a showroom corner in the application it was obviously designed for.
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DrWho was just doing some research into horn loaded subwoofers and mentioned the same factors Jay did: the mouth size would need to be tremendous. One of the dope from hope listed the "effective" mouth size of the corner-loaded woofer in the klipschorn etc. I'm not sure if corner-loading and horn-folding would be enough to allow horn-only bass down to 20hz or not?
As I recall from hearing PWK speak, the primary difference between the Belle Klipsch (LaScala) and the Klipshorn was that he designed the Klipshorn to use the corners of the room itself as the last fod of the horn, thereby extending its response to about 32 hz, the practical limit of the vinyl medium at the time. The last fold then was much less controlled and unpredictable, but served the function well enough, I suppose. A less than ideal approach for sure, but it seems to work well enough, as Klipschorn owners are quick to assert.
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Truethfully , I believe that if PWK lived in this day and age he would have produced a hornloaded sub to complement his speakers .
I believe Velodyne started making subwoofers in 1982 ...Subs didn't really exist until the mid 90's so that was after Paul sold the company, maybe a few factors with the selling of klipsch but not generally.
Also so what, take to two front corners for the klipschorns and the whole back for the klipschsubhorn???
IMO ...
Oh Yeah ,
Klipsch On !!!
I think this is the consensus.
Paul Klipsch responded to the challenge of being told that horns as used in theatres couldn't be put into a home environment by innovatively folding the horn back on itself.
Who would have guessed that the theatre would follow the horns into the home.
I wonder how many hours it took PWK to engineer the folded horn. Think what he could have done with CAD/CAM/CNC.
The challenge is for present day Klipsch engineers to apply these tools and accept the challenge to build a horn loaded sub, or more importantly not accept that it can't be done. As PWK did.
There is alot of speculation as to whether the present corporation is still true to its engineering roots and core philosophy.
A state-or-the-art yet relatively affordable horn loaded sub, built by the corporation that built itself on horn technology would go a long way toward ending that debate. To not accept the challenge is a clear statement to the contrary.
Such a product would integrate with both the Heritage and Reference lines.
Can't be done? Danley sounds designs would indicate otherwise. He seems to be both producing design, and selling them as well.
If Klipsch engineers aren't up to the task, then maybe the corporation's next acquisition should be Danley Sound. Bring his expertise and renegade spirit in-house. He seems more philosophically aligned with PWK in many ways.
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I believe I have a pretty good theory to this .
Klipsch did not get into subwoofer manufacturing until after PWK sold the company to Fred Klipsch . So , since the new Klipsch company was moving away from the type of speakers that put Klipsch on the map , why bother . I mean it's nice that they still produce the Heritage line but what else could they do . To stop production on the types of speakers that the company was founded on would allienate 40 years of loyal customers .
IMO ...
I believe Paul probably felt his speakers didn't need a sub , but if he lived in this day and age and still owned the company I believe he would have produced a horn loaded sub !
Flame away , I'm a Big Boy and can take it !
Klipsch seems to be taking a tried and true path, which is using flagship products to create a halo effect for lesser products. The diversity of producing parallel product lines to address both price points and functional needs is wise I think for the long run, a path that at a pragmatic level seems to be working since Klipsch is acquiring rather than being acquired. While many have audiophile aspirations, the reality is that most folks can only afford bread-and-butter products. But these 80 percentile bread-and-butterproducts provide the cash flow necessary to sustain the 20 percent high end product and R&D.
I also believe, without a doubt that Paul Klipsch, living today, would fully embrace the technology available, apply it pragmatically to fundamental acoustic principles in an innovative way. He would have found a way to produce a horn loaded sub.
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I've wondered the same thing and face the same dilemma. Some of the industry professionals I've spoken are pretty candid and can't really recommend it saying that there is very little discreet information encoded for the rear channels. They also say many of thier clients are focusing on 5.1. Or that 7.1 is difficult to execute in a smaller room. In a dedicated HT room 7.1 is easier to work out, but in a multifunctional living space such as a family room, 5.1 seems to often work out better with minimum penalty. At the very least it would seem that a 6.1 or 7.1 rear would demand a minimal expenditure of resources.
In a similar vein as this question, I recently listened to a DTS demo with a jazz band where the rear channels were used for discrete instuments, placing the listener in the middle of the band rather than facing the band. A little disconcerting at first, but once the paradigm shift was made, pretty enjoyable. I think with the emergence of higer resolution media (blue ray, HD-DVD) there will be more surround sound productions that will be mixed to be heard with primary rather than ambient information in the rear channels. I'm already seeing releases on DVD of live performances like this, and I think there will be more as the technology develops, producer grasp the medium, and engineers are given more latitude.
So a related question for me is: would it be better to commit to a 5.1 platform and use full range speakers for the rears?
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I feel sort of like I'm walking around the elephant in the room, but why do you think Klipsch doesn't make a horn-loaded sub for the lowest octave?
Yes, they would be big and heavy due to the required physics. Probably expensive. But I have observed folks are buying subs from Danley Sound Labs, Pi, and others often to go with their heritage speakers. The challenge is to find a sub source that can match the characteristics - and efficiency- of the existing lines. Subs with performance commensurate with the rest of the line. Fact of the mattter is that low sub frequency content is now practical due to digital media, and commonplace in media today. In the vinyl years, when the Heritage line was developed, this was not the case, at least if you wanted to keep the "L" in "LP".
The closest I have seen is the triangular Reference subs that are apparently designed to be placed in a corner, though I have yet to see a dealer display them that way.
I've even seen threads lately that hypothesize what type of corner sub PWK would have designed.
So I thought I would ask the obvious question: Why didn't he. Or why don't his engineering successors?
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I used to have a drawer full of them, but I don't know what box nor where in storage they might be.
I don't quite have the fond memories as some of you.
Most of mine were handed to me from Paul's hand at church after my sermon!
I was twenty-something. I like to think that I have matured a bit.
Paul came down to Alexandria LA several time to fly me back to Hope for speaking engagements that he had concocted. So, who will ever know?
I said a prayer and helped cut the ribbon that marked the completion of I-30. Strange things.
DRBILL
rotfl!!!! I'll have to try that on my pastor!
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Have you tried talking nicely to a dealer? Got a couple a while back from a local dealer, just a thought.
Thanks for the suggestion...sounds like a great deal closer.
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oldbuckster, you're killing me, man. I actually love the Heritage stuff, Have since '75 when I heard Paul demo Klipschorns at an AES meeting/studio opening. But I can't get there for three reasons. Primarily, size and layout of the room, especially placement of doors windows. Second is money. Still can't afford 'em. Though used would be a possibility, but I have limited time to search. Third is SAF. The reference is about as far as I can push that envelope. If I had the room and the cash, no question Heritage. Realities of life: I can probably pull off Reference. But I am glad you carry the torch. And I may have to see if I can get over to Knoxville...
OK BUD............NO PROBLEM...........YOU ASK A QUESTION........YOU GET ANSWER
YOU DON'T LIKE ANSWER.........I'M NOT KILLING ANYONE........DOESN'T MATTER TO ME...........
No need to yell.
kid:
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): kid·ded; kid·ding
Etymology: probably from kid
transitive verb
1 a : to deceive as a joke or b : to fail to admit the truth to
2 : to make fun of
intransitive verb : to engage in good-humored fooling or horseplay -- often used with around
No offense taken.
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oldbuckster, you're killing me, man. I actually love the Heritage stuff, Have since '75 when I heard Paul demo Klipschorns at an AES meeting/studio opening. But I can't get there for three reasons. Primarily, size and layout of the room, especially placement of doors windows. Second is money. Still can't afford 'em. Though used would be a possibility, but I have limited time to search. Third is SAF. The reference is about as far as I can push that envelope. If I had the room and the cash, no question Heritage. Realities of life: I can probably pull off Reference. But I am glad you carry the torch. And I may have to see if I can get over to Knoxville...
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Didn't you demo a non-klipsch system today too? Or is that at another dealer at another time? I must confess watching you bounce around is most entertaining...never seen someone so dedicated.
And to think my wife accuses me of being overly analytical!
The non-Klipsch demo didn't come together today, maybe next week.
I did hear the RF63/RF62 compared to the PSB towers. Nolo Contendere. No Mas.
The salesman just looked at me smiling and said "well, they are different."
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I used to have a Klipsch "bullshit" button, directly from the hand of PWK himself at an AES meeting, but it was misplaced somewhere over the years. I've really been needing one lately at work
. Are these still available anywhere? Also the Klipsch belt buckles? -
I am worn out having spent the day auditioning Klipsch.
I began this morning by driving an hour to a nearby Klipsch dealer whose company does mostly commercial installations, and high end audio/video. He had just received a system with the RF83/RC64/RS64 in a 5.1 configuration. I listened to a few familiar CD's, and also watched a DTS demo CD with excerpt from various movies. I heard passages and instrumentation on these cd's that I have never heard before, though I have listened to them probably a hundred times. A scene from Lord of the Rings where the front gate of the castle is blown apart was absolutely incredible. The system was very adept at both nuance and visceral impact.
Next I went to a nearby dealer and this time auditioned the RF63, RF62, and also the various boorshelves, most of which were from the previous Reference line (RF10, RF15, etc.). I again played the familiar CD's. I find that I really like the RF62's balance, and amazing depth of bass response for 6's. The RF63's are different in sonic signature. I had difficulty in choosing a favorite between the two frankly. I like both, but the 83 has more detail in the midrange. I could hear differences between the two, and finally favored the 63, but for the roughly $1000 difference, I can buy all the matching surrounds for the 62. Tough call. Finally gave up for the day. However, an audition of the bookshelves for my office/studio was very enlightening. The 6 inch and eight inch were both quite good. I heard both with a 10' PSB sub, and came away feeling that this route would definitely be best for that application. I enjoyed that they presented a sound stage that rivalled the floorstanders. I found the PSB sub to blend well and it was an excellent value at $359. I was not able to hear a Klipsch sub with these. I have to wonder how good they would be with the Sub12 that has been recommended here at the same price point. I particularly liked the fact that the spectral balance and detail remained at very low volumes, which will be nice tfor late night listening after everyone else is in bed. Like now for instance.
Part of the decision process is what TV I will need for the HT room, and how much budget is then left for the speakers. So I struck out to Best Buy to see if they had that new Phlat-light LED-engined Samsing in yet. No.
. Since I knew they had the Sub 12 I went over to the speaker section. There was a 60 inch Pioneer plasma that was flanked by the eight-inch Klipsch Synergy towers, a six-inch center, and two 6-inch towers for the rear. A demo DTS DVD was playing including the Eagles farewell tour, a great jazz group whose name I didn't get, and several scenes from various movies. I have "heard" the Synergy line in passing, but it's usually used for basically sound effects to sell TV's. But tonight, the chairs were open, I was tiired, so I plopped down. And I found myself seriously listening and enjoying them for the next 45 minutes. Not to the speaker, but to the music or performance itself. (A common theme all day long, with each Klipsch system I have heard.) I was surprised by just how good and musical the "entry" level Kilpsch line is, and how affordable it is. But I was also surprised though at how close the price was to the reference systems quotes I've been getting. If the Synergy quotes were similar, frankly I would have a hard time not taking that route as the clear most-bang-for-the-buck-no-way-you-could-feel-guilty champ.So I found myself at the end of the day enjoying a short respite of musical bliss in of all places, Best Buy in the middle of their Saturday night chaos. The Synergy's created a little cocoon of relaxation. And made me realize how good it would be at the end of a day to enjoy this in my home. I came away though with no winner system that stands out as clearly the thing to do. I like several within the line, but as they say "it's all good". It will be difficult to make a bad choice. But also difficult to just make the choice. Decisions, decisions.....
Thanks to the community here for the help and suggestions.
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Amen brother ...I only plead for money.
Travis
That's why I prefer to drink at the house. [
]Too much risk involved to you and others !
Not too sure about these guys.....
but I'll definitely have to buy 'em a beer if I make it to a Klipsch Pilgrimmage.
. Are these still available anywhere? Also the Klipsch belt buckles?
. Since I knew they had the Sub 12 I went over to the speaker section. There was a 60 inch Pioneer plasma that was flanked by the eight-inch Klipsch Synergy towers, a six-inch center, and two 6-inch towers for the rear. A demo DTS DVD was playing including the Eagles farewell tour, a great jazz group whose name I didn't get, and several scenes from various movies. I have "heard" the Synergy line in passing, but it's usually used for basically sound effects to sell TV's. But tonight, the chairs were open, I was tiired, so I plopped down. And I found myself seriously listening and enjoying them for the next 45 minutes. Not to the speaker, but to the music or performance itself. (A common theme all day long, with each Klipsch system I have heard.) I was surprised by just how good and musical the "entry" level Kilpsch line is, and how affordable it is. But I was also surprised though at how close the price was to the reference systems quotes I've been getting. If the Synergy quotes were similar, frankly I would have a hard time not taking that route as the clear most-bang-for-the-buck-no-way-you-could-feel-guilty champ.
]
A bit upset with Klipsch Dealer
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
At DrWho's recommendation I went to hear a Sub12. I have to agree with him that this truly is a "sleeper" in the Klipsch line. I heard it putting out some impressive SPL and low response, yet it blended well and didn't draw attention to itself. It effortlessly filled the large warehouse of Best Buy with phat, musical bass. Definitely worth checking out. The Sub10 however, isn't in the same league.