Rickster-Atlanta

Where Are the missing MID's ? I set up the speaker with the original drivers, and marked the position on the floor with tape. Then I set up the mic 3ft away, level with the 10" driver. I tested the Klipsch driver Yellow line . Then put the speaker with the Dayton drivers in position and tested that speaker the same way Blue . Then I displayed both graphs at the same time and applied the smoothing. This is the bottom line. I cannot measure any obvious loss in MIDS. Also I can switch the 2 speakers R to L and L to R, trying all different materials, music, TV, DVD, Am, Fm, CDs, voice, vocals, and I cannot hear any loss or coloration of the MIDS. As you can see the Dayton Driver performs pretty darn close to the K-1001-K Woofer in the mid-range area. 300-5k

The only thing this has made me realize is that the Audax driver and the Dayton driver Are so close in specs, that one of them is mis-classified. Either the Dayton should be in the WOOFER catagory, or the Audax should be in the SUBWOOFER catagory. Which is it?????

I still have all the printouts of all the drivers I researched right here on my desk. I don't see where the high end response is smoother. Nothing above 2khz is being used. (-18db per octave starts at 1khz) From 200-2khz the dayton has an overall deviation of 8db, where the Audux is close to 11db. And if "smoother" means the line is flatter, that isn't the case either. The new driver has a larger XMAX and moves more air, thats why I got the passives to match, and it works! The original Passives match a driver that had a smaller XMAX and moves less air. If I would have purchased the Audax drivers, with only 4mm Xmax of course I would have re-used the original Passives. I'm not saying the Audax drivers wouldn't have worked as well. Im just saying the Daytons worked fine. I went with the Daytons over the Audax for these reasons: The specs were close enough on paper, the magnet was heavyer, The response below 2 khz was flatter, the drivers used a gasket on the back of the driver instead of the front, the xmax was larger and I liked the idea of getting a little more bottom. And then in the end, everything worked out for me. It was a like a plan came together. Again thanks for all your help.

SUCCESS ! I have spent the last couple of days comparing the the KG5.2 with the Klipsch driver to the one I converted over to the Dayton drivers. I have to be honest with you, I cannot find any faults. My focus is always drawn to the middle, There is no noticeable difference in level. The only thing I notice is that the Daytons sound a little sweeter, and a touch more natural. Also you get more movement and a little more bass out of the Daytons. You really get some movement out of the passive when the bass kicks in. When I turn off the bass boost, and turn on the KSW-12 SUB, the bottom end meshes seamlessly. I have decided that posting any of the graphs I have would really be pointless. The system is not calibrated, the results are nowhere near flat or represent how the speakers actually sounded. When I started out, I was using sine waves to try to compare the outputs of the speakers, and it took me a while to figure out that it wasnt working well. I got a lot better results with pink noise, and the results showed me that the speakers were close in performance. I hadnt used these KG5.2 speakers in 4 years, and I had forgotten how good they sounded. I just saw a pair in nice shape sell for 400.00 on ebay. They certainly are great examples of how PWK could take a compromise 2 way system with a horn driver that rings with harmonics, and make it sound fantastic. I am very happy with the results, and I feel that these drivers should be considered as an option for anyone who needs drivers for their KGs, They give more than satisfactory results with no crossover mods. Also the cost is only 106.00 for two 10 drivers and two 12 passives. Dayton SD270-88 10" Shielded DVC *SubwooferDayton SD315-PR 12" Passive Radiator *The Subwoofer classification is a little confusing. The Spec'd frequency range is the same as the 10" reference series, but PartsExpress and Dayton classify drivers with 2 coils as subwoofers even though most subwoofers are only rated to 500-600 hz. There are plenty of "woofers" only rated to 1,500hz on the market, even though they appear to be more suited for a 3 way design then a 2 way. Another possible 4ohm replacement I came across was the "Aurum Cantus AC-250F1D 10" DVC Woofer". The upper end of the frequency range: 23-3,000 Hz is probably closer the the K-1001-K driver, but the cost is 120.00 compared to 30.00 for the Dayton. It uses a polly cone, and also has a 2 inch voice coil like the K driver. Pictures on my web site. www.rickd.net

The Mic is not calibrated, but its an expensive PC mic, with its own bias voltage. I can reproduce my measurements, and 1db on the graph does equal 1db in volume level. This should be good enough for comparing signals, but the actual freq response of the mic and sound card are not flat. Below are the 2 drivers. The Blue line is the orginal K-1001-K, The Green line is the Dayton driver. Near feild, Pink noise, NO crossover. Below is the Tweeter cuvre and the dayton curve shown at the same time. Near feild, Pink Noise, No crossover.

2 order design, 1mh coil and 28 ufd cap with 4 ohm speaker is 1000hz. Your suppose to have a usable frequency range that extends a minimum of 1 octave beyond the xover frequency. That means the speaker should be fairly flat up to the 2khz point. It works with the k-1001-k because it doesn't peak at 2 khz, if it peaks at all, it must be far enough away from 1khz I was thinking I could Increase the value of the cap, which would move the frequency lower, and might pull down the hump at 2khz. What do you think?

The usable frequency range for both speakers does not go high enough to be used for this project. If you have any ideas on a comprimise solution, like a notch filter, or altering the crossover, Please let me know. Every 10" speaker on the PARTS EXPRESS web site, with multiple coils to get 4 ohms is classified as a SUBwoofer. Even AurumCantus reclassifies the 8/4 ohm 2 coil version of the same driver to the subwoofer group, and its high end goes way past the Audax, which is in the woofer group. It's the only 10" Driver on the PE website that has the frequency range to do the job, and it is in the subwoofer group becaouse it has 2 coils. Thanks Rickster

I did some listening tests and compared the new and old driver. I can hear the 2khz peak and I can measure it also. So i dissconected the horns and went back to the lab. I tested the woofers connected to the crossovers and the speakers do not behave the same near and past the crossover point. The new driver reproduces the response of the original up to around 1khz, after that things change. The new driver is much louder @ 2khz and then drops off faster then the original. STL, the Audux speaker you recommended that I use, has the same characteristics around 2khz, so I would still be dealing with the same issue. This is a quote from. ::http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/JBL-L26-3way.htm A large 10" bass driver with problems in the 2 kHz region doesn't exactly call for a 2-way despite the 2-way crossover working reasonably well. To make a 2-way from a 10" midbass takes a driver with a very smooth roll-off profile and this JBL hasn't. Apparently The original Klipsch drivers usable response is extended beyond 1.5Khz and doesnt have that spike at 2Khz. I am going to test the 2 drivers without the crossovers connected next, so I can actually , see what the difference is. I would have known this to start out, I probably should have bought this speaker instead: http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=296-432 Thanks Rickster

I played some music through the modified KG5.2 and it sounds great. You can turn up the bass and it ROCKS. Yes, I took the bucking magnet into consideration, and in the end, I ended up with a magnet at least as big as the the original. I wanted the the components to match (visually also), thats why I did the passives also. Like you said, I can sell the originals. STL, I compared the new 10" inch drivers using the original PR and the new one, There was no difference that I can measure,going down to 60Hz. In fact the new driver and passive is very close to the originals, from 1KHz on down to 70Hz. I started to dig into the 2khz imbalance between the 2 speakers, and I'm pretty sure it is related to the highpass filter. 2.1 khz is the cutoff for the HP filter. The woofers are still putting out a fare amount of sound at 2 khz, If the HP filter is not working properly, I could be getting an overlap at 2khz. That would explain the the peak. I already exchanged the 2 two horns between the speakers, and the problem did not follow the horns. As it turned out, there is actually a DIP at 2KHz with the original 10" Driver. The new Drivers don.t have the DIP at 2KHz. The results are a flatter response through the crossover area @ 1000, 1500, and 2000 Hz. Check out the pictures on my web site. www.rickd.net Later

Project Update: STL, I do not want to plug and port the cabinets, but thanks for the idea. And Thank you for making the graph of the speaker choices. I decided to go with the matching Dayton DVC driver and PR. The Magnets turned out to be quite heavy and weighing in heavier than the original speaker. My test setup worked perfect for comparing the New and Old drivers. The new speaker configuration, with 12 in Dayton Woofer, and 12 Dayton Passive, is -1,5 db at 100 Hz, 250 Hz, and 500 Hz compared to the original, And right on at 1000 Hz the LP xover point. I am going to keep experimenting and try to make some measurements below 100 Hz. I am using a licensed copy of RealRTA software. I am going to have to get to know the program better, increase my output, and maybe even use a different MIC to go below 100hz. I will post any new results I get. I feel that these results are good, and are well within the guidelines for speaker replacement. I continued comparing the speakers @ 2000, 4000 and 6000 Hz to test the original horns, and my measurements from both horns did not match. I took them apart and found the apparently leaked oil, that I had read about before. I used solvent to clean the oil and rust out of the magnet slots. Then I carefully cleaned the diaphragms. I put everything back together and retested. The tweeters are almost working fine now. I compared them all the way up to 10khz. I still have a little problem right at 2khz. One driver is 10db louder right at 2khz, and I can see the harmonics on the analyzer, and hear it ringing with my ears. Now I have to figure out if they both should be doing that or not., and make the repair. This is the last bump in the road so to speak. If you need replacement diaphragms, you can get them here. http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=10-306&Category_Code=Klipsch Ive got some pictures, but I need to update my website.

STL, I am still waiting for some numbers on the PR. Check out this speaker, and I am considering getting the matching passive radiators and changing them too. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-485&scqty=2 Specifications: *Power Handling: 80 watts RMS/120 watts max *VCdia: 1.5" *Le: 1.2 mH *Impedance: 8 ohms per coil *Re: 3.10 ohms *Frequency range: 30-1,500 Hz *Fs: 25 Hz *SPL: 92.7 dB 2.83V/1m *Vas: 3.90 cu. ft. *Qms: 3.20 *Qes: .43 *Qts: .38 *Xmax: 6 mm *Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 10-5/8", Cutout Diameter: 9", Mounting Depth: 4-3/4" Matching PR http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=295-496&scqty=2 Specifications: *Fs: 16.8 Hz *Vas: 5.20 cu. ft. *Qms: 3.00 *Cms: .45 mm/N *Mms: 200 g *Rms: 7.03 kg/s *Sd: 480 sq. cm. *Xmax: 10 mm *Dimensions: A: 12-3/8", B: 10-3/4", C: 3-3/8". I think this is the way to go, Let me know what you think. I pulled out one of the PR's today to find that the foam seal had fallen out of place during assembly back in 93, so the foam seal was out of place for about 5 inches. Also the speaker wasn't centered in the hole so 2 of the holes were very close to the edge and the MDF board was broken. For what I payed for these speakers back then, I was disappointed to see such poor workmanship. The crossovers appear to be well made, with quality Coils. The capacitors may not be the best. The new speakers will have 5 holes and will have fresh wholes properly drilled. Thanks again

Hi STL, Can you to run the specs on this speaker also if you don't mind. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-322 Specifications: * Power handling: 140 watts RMS/270 watts max * Voice coil diameter: 1-1/2" * Le: 1.4 mH * Frequency response: 40-2,500 Hz * Re: 3.8 ohms * Magnet weight: 40 oz. * Fs: 45 Hz * SPL: 92.7 dB 2.83W/1m * Vas: 1.12 cu. ft. * Qms: 4.50 * Qes: .45 * Qts: .40 * Xmax: 3.55mm * Net weight: 7-1/3 lbs. * Dimensions: Overall Diameter: 10-1/4", Cutout Diameter: 9-1/8", Mounting Depth: 4-3/8", Magnet Diameter: 4", Magnet Height: 1-1/4". I'm going to have to Email Klipsch for the Passive specs, I will do that right now.

The tube at the bottom of the woofer cone is 2 inches. The cabinet dimensions are 33.5" x 14.75 x 12.75".(outside dimensions) I'm guessing about 3 cubic ft. I did contact the guy klipsch referred me to, and from the message he left on my machine, I don't think I will call on his services. No he doesn't have the exact parts. And he wants more money than what its going to cost me to replace them. I do have one working speaker with the original driver. I have a signal generator, a meter, a microphone and an an analyzer program for my pc. I could if I need to tweek the crossovers or add Lpad attenuation to achive the same signal levels at a given Frequency.

Hi STL, I will measure the cabinet internals when i get home tonight. I checked out the driver you mentioned, I am concerned about the Fs, Vas, the voice coil diameter and the weight of the magnet. It doesn't actually list the magnet weight, but its only 4 inches in diameter and the over all wt of the driver is a little light compared to the original and another driver that I'm looking at. This driver : http://www.mcminone.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=MCMProducts&category%5Fname=1000209&product%5Fid=55%2D1555 Power Capacity: 100W/200W RMS/peak Sensitivity: 92dB (W/M) Impedance: 8ohm Re: 6.2ohm Le: 1.78mH Frequency response: 30Hz~4KHz Fs: 30Hz Qts: 0.33 Qes: 0.35 Qms: 5.24 Vas: 116.74 (liters) Xmax: 1.5mm Is almost a perfect match, 2 inch voice coil, 43 oz magnet, rubber surrond, the same Fs and Vas and sensitivity, and very close Qes and Qts. The problem is that is it 8 ohms. I would like to use this driver and rebuild the low pass filters on the networks, For about 10 bucks a speaker, I can replace the coil and capacitor with the working values for the 8 ohm speaker. I know Al Klappenberger from a few years ago, and I have sent him a message with my propossed plan to get his opinion. Thanks for your continued help, and I will get back to you.

I went over the known values from the diagram using formulas I found on the net. The 2nd order Low pass for the woofer is the easyest one to calculate. The only numbers that work out with 28ufd and 1mh, are 4 ohms and 1000 hz. I just recieved a reply from klipsch and this is what they said: Here is all I have on the K-1001-K Fs ( Fo) 28 Hz Re 3.5 ohms 4 nominal Qe 0.31 Qt 0.29 Vas 111.5 Liter = (3.9 cubic ft) 92 dB BL 9.5 TM 42.5 g moving mass You may want to check with www.woofer.com about possible repair ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I searched through some sites that sell speakers, and I can find a couple of good matches, but the speakers are 8 ohms. I havent found anything that matches in 4 ohms, there is far less to choose from. Thanks again.

Thanks for the Advice, Yes I will replace the speakers with a matching pair. I have both of the bad drivers, but at this time, I don't plan on having them repaired. I came across the diagram of the crossovers this morning in the forums, and I was able to come up with some numbers. The crossover freq is 1,000 hz, the impedance of the horn driver and woofer are 8 and 4 ohms. And yes STL you were right (3rd order HP and a 2nd order LP). I have heard of the rope caulk horn treatment in these forums before but haven't really considered it. Now at least I have basic info on replacing the woofers. I realize however that the speakers will never be exactly like they were, but I do feel that substituting the woofers will at least be a USABLE compromise, all tho it may not be PERFECT. Also the market isn't exactly flooded with 4 ohm 10" woofers to choose from. I have requested the specs on the driver from Klipsch. Sensitivity, frequency range, and whatever else they have. Maybe this will help me narrow my search from what is actually available. Does anybody have any idea how the 2 and 4 ohm resisters affect the crossover? The 4 ohm is in series with the coil on the high pass. And the 2 ohm is in series with the capacitor on the low pass. I have included the diagram. Thanks Guys. KG-5%202.pdf

I bought my KG5.2's new in 94 and my son cooked one the first time in 99, when I could still get the K-1001-K from klipsch. He cooked one again in 2003 but I replaced the speakers with some AS-F2's and a KSW-12 Sub and put the 5.2's in storage. I got them out the other day to fix them , but found out that the K-1001-K is no longer available. Klipsch refered me to http://www.partsexpress.com. The closest thing they have to my 10 inch woofers are these ( Goldwood GW-10PC-40-8 10" Heavy Duty Woofer) Would these work as a drop in, without any other changes? Do I need 8ohm or 4ohm? I dont want to mess with the crossovers unless I need to (or unless I can roll off the treble a little), But I can if I have to. Is there a recommended compression driver upgrade for the horns? Do the newer Titanium ones sound better? What is their impeadance? Can anyone give me the diagram of the crossovers? I would appreciate it. What are the slopes and crossover frequencies of my networks? I would like to repair and or upgrade these speakers and put them back into use. The light OAK veneer is in fine condition.