skywave-rider
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Posts posted by skywave-rider
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I think it was a bad idea to have posted them on the AK forum. Very few people interested in Klipsch speakers will ever see them over there. As to a personal Vedanta, you are probably right. I do have one! As I think back on how the final exchanges between me and "Grumpy" went, I would have told the guy off in no uncertain terms rather then being agreeable. It still eats at my craw and it was several years ago! The bottom line over there is that they want PAID advertisers! Anyone like me who sells related stuff is EXPECTED to pay. I actually thought about doing it too. It would have been a total wast of money! The Klipsch community is HERE, not there.
Al K.
Clearly, I am right.
I am not in a popularity contest and I don't sell stuff. So, yea, AK is a good place for measurements.
You're rude to lay that stuff on me and in my thread.
Lose the anger and move on.
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It's apparent that it was a bad idea to attempt to bring my measurements to this forum. I have no patience to wade through the personal vendetta stuff I see posted here, on a thread I started.
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You can always make your own measurements.
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I don't know what you guys are talking about. And I don't want to know.
I've never had a problem on AK; far from it.
Anyway, like I said, I will take the time to upload the original files here when I get back.
Currently in Japan, heard Everest DD66000s and assorted vintage JBL, Altec, et. al. stuff so far.
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I see. I am out of town but will do that when I get back. Thanks!
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Isn't that heat/resistance thing the way that the lightbulb tweeter protection circuit works?
Probably.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-659
Urei used bulbs as fuses; but I never had to change one.
EDIT: Actually, if I remember correctly, the bulbs were only WARNING LIGHTS,
standard fuses were in line, tweeter and woofer. Sorry. Can't find the manual....
(fifth type)
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Wow, Mike. Did the crossover get that hot?
Welcome to the old-world of tube amps. : )
The ear percieves so differently at different volume levels, that I think shifting
values in attenuators are not significant; assuming they stabilize eventually.
We're supposed to "work" a speaker at
what, 85dBspl? 90? Too loud for me these days.
At a certain echelon in pro sound, everything is active anyway.
I know u guys know that.
We're dealing with old world stuff here, but we like it.
I also note u guys love arguing. [
]I'm still catching up.... [
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Apparently Gil is still up to the task of offering detailed explanations! Great post.
Skywave-rider: I don't think the tweeter is as hot as you think. Try moving the 2uF cap for the tweeter from the tap that it's on to the same tap the midrange is attached to (from 3 to 2).
btw, it's nice to know how and why something works, but it's just as nice to know that it just does. Don't get yourself all tied up trying to get your head wrapped around this stuff. Some people have done that, and still ended up right where they started -- and most find the simple thing usually works best.
Hey Dean, thanks again.
Well I think this is your subtle way of saying "you just don't understand..." LOL
Perhaps.
I'll try moving the tap. The K-77 looks (as posted) and sounds, real hot. 3dB would sure help though. I'll post back with that.
In the long run, a new crossover designed with a bandpass mid with crossover points selected to compliment horn directivity in the vertical and horizontal dimensions, (something else I'm learning about....), if possible, would be fun to try after I get better measuring abilities. And there are the other projects which never get done. The 2 way Econowave over at AK has to get done first.
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Mike and Eric:
Thank you both for your thoughts.
Mike, I looked at your measurements.
Observations:
I have to agree, I hear comb filtering which is probably the worst aspect of the Heresys, or any speakers, for me.
My K-77M tweeters are much hotter than yours.
Eric, I will look at your bandpass design, which would seem to solve some of the issues.
If you'd suggest a particular thread with your most recent work, I'd appreciate it.
In the mid term I hope to get Soundeasy software, which will help me design networks and increase my measurement capabilities.
What to do right now? Well I'm learning....
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Thanks, Gil.
What you summarize is very interesting, it connects acoustic/electrical systems for me very well and is much appreciated.
Please note that the Olson and JBL links you refer to do not appear on your post.
Let me test my assumptions now to see if I understand...
If I attenuate more than stock at the autoformer, I am cutting voltage, increasing current; equivalent to reducing impedance. Couple that with changing the inductance, which requires a change in cap value to prevent the crossover point from shifting.
The resistor across autoformer 0 and 5 gives attenuation of both mid and hi.
That resistance in parallel plus the autoformer's impedance in series act like a fixed, though perhaps frequency dependent, L pad for both mid and hi.I am still collating reflected impedance....
I have little knowledge, that makes me dangerous. -
You kind of have to know how autoformers work for it to make any sense. Since I'm pretty burned out on explaining it you should try the archives where I think no less than six of us have explained it a dozen times or more.
Trust me, it's almost better if you don't know!The 11 ohm resistor is actually strapped between taps 0 and 5 on the autoformer. Tap 5 is the input tap. The resistor changes the reflected impedance through the autoformer back to the amplifier, so you have to raise the capacitor value from 2uF to 21uF to keep the crossover point the same. There is no impact to the tweeter leg which comes off the output side of the autoformer, so the cap value stays the same.
Thanks, Dean. I'll dig into it. Can't promise myself it will sink in though.
To re-iterate, I only want to bring the tweeter down, not the mid. I assume others have tried to do what I want.
I have a Crites tweeter which is what I normally use. I'm just playing with the pulled K-77 to see what I can learn. But if the mod makes it a burden to switch the Crites back in, I might just make an L-Pad I can cut out. Dunno. We'll see.
Thanks for the info.
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Unless I'm mistaken(happens now and then) you could just move the tweeter negative and leave the squawker alone.
That should do as you want, although just dropping it one tap lower may not give you the attenuation you want.
Referring to the Albright mod, keep the 11 Ohm, 20 Watt resistor from first cap to ground? And I notice he has changed that cap from 2uF to 21 uF. What of that? I see he says to keep the tweeter cap at 2 uF.
Thanks!
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Any reason why I should avoid the Dayton caps and go instead with something else (more expensive)? Thanks.
Wm
I have used them in other crossovers and I think they are a little softer sounding compared to Solens I've tried.
Not much help? I can say that I tried Audiocap Thetas in these Heresys and found them to be harsh.
I'm happy with the oil caps I ultimately installed, but those are unobtanium. I recently found a reference for these Cornell Dubiler
film foil caps which I may try in the future:
AudioHeritage PostBut I think Bob Crites knows what works!
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The different taps on the autoformer each offer a different level of padding each in 3dB increments IIRC.
I really like mine with both the midrange and the highs attenuated.
It sounds very balanced to me but I don't have any RTA stuff to prove to my eyes what my ears enjoy.
Thanks. Yes, I would like to try using the taps on the autotransformer, and was wondering if there is a good way to do it for the tweeter only. I can figure a fixed L-pad, but I note that some here believe there are superior methods to doing that.
It's easy to see and hear that the K77 is much too hot. That's why I bought the Crites tweeter well before I had RTA capabilities.
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I know this thread is old, but it seems the right one to add to.
My K-77M tweeters are too hot, but not the mid. The woofer seems balanced in what it provides. So my question is, what would you suggest I do to attenuate the tweeter alone, by what looks like, potentially, about 8dB? If I read this thread correctly, the mod developed here attenuates both mid and hi.
I measured my Heresy 1.5 (k22k woofer/k55mid/Crites and K-77
tweeter/E-2 crossover) at 1 meter and 3" nearfield. The speakers have
the angle back stands, so they are close to the floor at the standard
tilt up.
"Normal" connection follows the HF connection in the schematic posted below.If you can't seem the full RTA image, you could go here: Click to go to Audio Karma thread
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Carl, your setup sounds wild, let me know if there's a link somewhere to pics of your setup. Very interesting on the JBL mid; I've never heard a Klipshchorn, so I really don't know what those mids are like. But one thing's for sure, the mids are where it's at. I've heard reports those T-Amps are nice. I was considering one to drive the 902s at one point -- biamp option. But I'm pretty sure I will follow through on the passive crossove since in the future I will probably use it with a small tube amp.
After you finish your house remodelling, please post your RTA, I'm interested in seeing what that looks like.
Best wishes,
Vin
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Interesting, well I believe the APT200 is simply a CD horn, just like a baby version of my 811b. I tried the tweeter in that orientation and the imaging was not useable. Hey, I have a 902 also! I am currently trying to integrate a tweeter, but may go back to 2way. How do you find the HF extension on your 902?
My thread on the Altec is here:
Altec 9844B-8
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There may be a cottage industry opportunity for hand made vacuum tubes. I always wondered how they achieved the vacuum! Apparently he is an amateur radio operator (HAM.)
Thanks for listing that. Awesome.
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It seems to me that the APT 200 needs a 90 degree rotation. I know the klipsch/EV is oriented correctly. I don't know about the Beyma.
I've been trying to settle on a tweeter for several months. This set up allows me to switch between tweeters with the throw of a switch. The three shown are the K-77M, the Eminence APT 200 (same driver as the Crites tweeter), and the Beyma CP 25. Without going into a lot of detail, I think that the Beyma will be the "one" that I stick with. I still think that the improvement moving from the K401 to the 511B (or ALK Trachorns) far exceeds the improvement that a tweeter change can provide.
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Anyone want to buy my k-77s? I've decided to sell them, for a fair price, and I also have a new diaphragm purchased from Klipsch. I'm totally happy with Bob's tweeter, so I don't need the originals. I'm currently integrating the APT tweeter into my Altecs:
3 Way Altec
I think it's a good driver.Let me know if you are interested in the K-77s and or the diaphragm with a PM.
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I haven't been back in a while so I think I owe everyone, at least, a re-cap, (can't believe I said that.)
Better yet a beer.
Additional problems with the speakers came up in the interim, and to make a long story short:
Cleaned the terminal strips with Caig DeOxit and D5ProGold. I also soldered all spade connectors. This cured intermettents and helped a great deal as you could imagine.
Changed the Theta caps out to a set of Aerovox (recent stock) oil filled caps. This helped a great deal as well.
Removed the K-77s and replaced with a set of Bob Crites tweeters. This changed the character of the speakers enormously. The imaging is now good and I have a for-real stable phantom image. Thanks, Bob for the good product.
I have the speakers where I want them now and use them constantly. I MIGHT put the Thetas back in now that the Crites tweeters are in, just to hear what happens. This tweeter extends the top end but reduces the output in the 5-9kHz region, to my ear. So the Heresies are very smooth and warm, though still punchy.
Thanks to all. I will be around; but right now I am trying to sort out a recently purchased set of Altec 9844-8bs.
My Altec crossover breadboard -
Wow, this thread has exploded! I just wanted to post a pic of my recap job, so I'll need time to read and respond. Holy cow. Anyway, here's a pic, I'm sure I'll have questions soon enough.
Thank you all.Vin
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Crites Tweeter Measurements
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