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What is the purpose of those flooding plots? There are plenty of combos. Nothing which tells us something new. Dean, no contradiction in what I'm saying - I dont care the speaker to have a lousy curve, but if sonics are problematic then curve may second that. This is what a (not) necessary condition means. Second, if you follow carefully, you realize that my complaint initially was about the RF-7 being sibiliance intolerant, and the fixing for me was to go back to stock crossovers. I tried to hang on the measurment first published by Trey in order to second the samples I gave. So if you think your RF-7 sound great for music, using my logics, then dont buy those measurment stuff and move on. Thats just my opinion and interpretation.

So post a full commercialized measurement. (this is the first time I hear those) When the RF-7 Sound & Vision measurments came the forum was kidding about 'em(same goes for RF-83). Persoanlly, I dont think good measurements is a necessary condition for a good 2ch speaker, however if there's a problem then they can support it. Both HF and LF curves look awful on the measurment you posted. It's not the first time we observe measurments, stereophile publish that with every speaker. But bottom line for me, I think the whole reference line is a 2ch suicide, is truly a remarkable home theater speaker but awfully unbalanced when it comes to enjoying music.

Agreed, but on a different perspective (such as customer's), Statements like this: RF-7 Specifications frequency response 32Hz-20kHz ±3dB Are why I'm becoming skeptic about some speaker manufacturers' statements. (I know the reasons; measurments ways, etc, plenty of contradiction options)

[8-)]

POST ERASED mndeem is correct No need to cross the fence. as said, I think I've made my point.

Maybe C.T.U. tracked down the crossover back and forth, installing some microchip device in the caps, after all it's the middle east, RF-7(or any speaker) crossovers dont pass here too frequently, perhaps jacksonbart can bart with some info he has over here [] All I can say is "the emperor wears no clothes" ? ;-) No .. People dont exactly remember how it was before since they get it back only after few days. All they have in their minds is all sort of HYPE they read in the forum regarding the upgrade. I believe (never checked) that parts replacement does improve the sonic. Thats why (intuitively) top notch (aka hi-fi) amplifiers use high quality parts, and IMO the crossover is no exceptional. The interesting point here is why so many people want their crossover upgraded - If I get new speakers which I like and enjoy I wouldn't want their crossover modified. As far as I know, It's not such a common notion in the stereo world (to new speakers whatsoever).

Dean, thanks a lot for you being sincere. I really think your work is of top notch. However, IMO, I think that the interpertation of the tweak was misleading, and somewhat amateur in the sense that no substantial measurment/proof was made to support such a mod that was applied to so many. My god, did you see the peak in the horn measured by Klipsch? it's a dead evidence that the RF-7 is not for 2ch listenning, I really hope the RF-83 measuers better. Again, as always in stereo - everything is subjective and constist of many parameters. If you sure you like it - then it worth it. If I get a new speaker after the RF7 which is in need of a crossover upgrade - I'd contact you again, given that you'd be objective as always ;-)

The opposite is true. But following your path, if you wish - switch the RCAs of your transport instead of changing the balance. Second, the HF only sample can let you concentrate (without the LF bias) on the ringing of one of the channels, when listened only to this one. second it gives you the option of wiring the horn directly to the amp withuot damaging it. I hope my experiment was clear to everyone, let me know otherwise. Alright, this argument is no big deal, so are the measruments. What's important are the samples. If you still find them insufficient for your standards, then I'll provide you one channel at a time, also - you can generate yourself - it happens on all female voice.

I'm providing you with two evidences; my samples (try them to understand what I'm refering to) and Trey's measurments. If you check those graphs in detail, given 0.1db error and/or manufacturing defect - whatever, it's still not in the direction of what the upgrade had promised. The 7.5khz diff is 0.5db, and like you said (hence the quote, apples and oranges look almost the same) can make ears bleed or smooth. Please note that, so far (since the mod was introduced at 2004), all the discussions included words, finally you're provided with measurments and samples to try yourself. What can you ask for more.

Exactly (EDIT (post previous post): DrWho, zoom into 7.5khz in WInWord, while in Edit Mode. There you will see accurate thin lines and not bogus. Every square is approx 2db vertically, and the jump of the blue(DeangG) there has max diff of about quarter a square , i.e. 0.5db)

Trey, thanks for the attached measurments info. 1. I've zoomed(500%) in into where the sibilance exaggerations are (around 8Khz +/- 3khz) and measurements show that DeanG'd are consistently slightly stronger there (approx 0.25db) than the stock. 2. To my surprise, the zoomed picture (how can I attach a pic here) reveals also a decrease in upper midrange of DeanG'd (as leok felt). SPL vs Freq graphs were never my reference, it can be made flat on a whooping $50 chinese made driven. However, the coloration of the speaker is what interest me (I love the horn's one), and the samples (of which I gave link to above) should demonstrate that. 3. Trey, do you also have an impendance vs. freq comparison between stock & DeanG ? Maybe there it's even more clearer, since the mod is specifically to resistance in the circuit... 4. Trey, I've found a Klipsch document on the HF crossover design of revision C, see: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/6/844278/RF7.pdf , where it appears there that the resistor is of 3ohm. Is it accurate and if so, were RF-7's horn had revision as well? (that it was necessary to compensate for them on the HF board) Thanks.

In respecting the community (I have no other motivation), I initially wanted Dean to inspect those samples. However, I haven't gotten an answer from him yet. I'll let you judge for yourself. In the following temporary link: http://rapidshare.com/files/63448935/cross.zip , please find two WAV files which are loseless (i.e. no compression at all was applied). They're actually the same passage. They can be burnt (accuralty) using any decent audio CD burner, and then played back on your setup. 1. "LF and HF.wav" is the passage, full spectrum. 2. "Only HF.wav" is the same passage, with just freqs above 2000hz, just to let you concentrate on the HF alone. (also you can use this one when the cross is bypassed on the HF, in case you want to neutralize everything) While auditioning, pay attention to the "S" in the 'search' word, no matter at what volume. It rings noticably more on the DeanG'd crossover. The experiment we did was to take off the paralleled resistor Dean put on the 2ohm (i.e. the mod) from only one of the speakers, leaving the other alone. And while listenning, to play with Balance L and R and compare. It's very clear. This is just one sample, please note that problem exist in many other samples that we found, actually almost all sibillance intriguing tests. I'd prefer Dean himself (or leok) to auditon this for themselves before others, since it requires desoldering the resistor. Once we hear (hopefully unbiased) impressions, lets go into conclusions. This of course applies only to those who had upgraded their RF-7 through DeanG.

Problem solved. Just to make sure and prepare evidence, with giving respect to people, I will report soon. As a teaser, I can assure that it will certainly amaze many people that hold the RF-7.

no no and no the phenomena is of the rf-7 peaking in that range. second, I was refering to your statement of whether rf-7 is for one and not the other

I'm not sure it's a matter of taste. They simply underperform at several elementary tests, such as reproducing accurate voice, IMO.

thanks leok. can you please provide some theory reinforcement. I'm curious in gerenal about experimenting with the LRC circuit over the board. What do you mean by what I thought was a peak in the horn's output , were measurments taken to show that the mod flatten the response and not just the that peak and/or that it generated peaks elsewhere.

what about the mod, why increasing current in the horn x-over board was found legitimate, in terms of numbers rather than taste... e.g.: there is the varying impendance of the horn as a function of frequency, and its db response. on the other hand there is current and volts that the amplifier perturbate. essentially the thing that moves the air is power to my understanding, then why the mod. thanks.

I'm openning a new thread to deal specifically with an experiment I did in order to track down sibilance on a dynaco 70 & RF-7 setup. Background: I've already ruled out source/dac/cables material/wiring(bi or not)/interconnects/amp tubes(not 7199s though)/preamp/pre-tubes/RF feedback/ac-noise/acoustics. It happens on all volume levels, no clipping issue for sure. Crossovers were moded by DeanG and caps & horn were burnt in for at least 20 hrs consecutively by a combination of sine wave sweeping and pink noise in considerably high volume level. The sibilance is still easily noticable on almost all female voice sessions. I've also checked an average solid-state integrated amp (rotel 06) and although sibilance is less exaggerated, it's still there. This issue of RF-7 and sibilance is well known, and I've found some threads mentioning this (for examp: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/thread/166062.aspx). However, none which I've found had given a path of course on how to resolve this issue thoroughly without dumping the speakers. I will give it a try then. Now to the experiment I just did. I have a specific segment in a track I got on a cd (of female voice; Katie Meula) which exaggerates sibilance very very noticably, and is taken by some audio critics as a sibiliance test. As an anecdote, Katie was born and raised in the country of Georgia (east europe) and moved into N. Ireland at the age of 8, afterthen relocated to England where she debuted at the age of 14, so this is maybe why her English accent is patologic and great as a sibiliance reference. I've ripped this track using an accurate digital extracton into a 2ch 16bit 44khz normal WAV file. I've used a wave editor (cooledit) and passed the segment through a high pass filter I created, which takes off everything below 2000hz, leaving the rest unaffected (0db) using FFT. I then burnt this filtered segment(*) on a cd in exact digital forma. I took the right speaker's horn out and unwired it from the crossover, and instead I wired it to the right speaker's terminal output of the dynaco directly. The left channel remained unaffected(crossover in action). So I've played the new track and compared the sibilance one against the other (L vs R), and the result is that the channel with the crossover bypassed exhibits no exaggerated sibilance at all (regardless of volume level), while the left channel (crossover in action) sounds as before. Of course that I made sure previously that the same amount of sibilance was coming out from L and R equally. This is the only evidence I got in tracking down sibilance. Since the crossover is moded (resistance on minus to minus path was reduced from 2ohms into 1.66ohm, so p=i^2*R; see: http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/storage/6/588211/HF.jpg), I initially suspected that. But, given the impressions of the vast majority among forums members who had moded the crossover, this shouldn't be the case. I'd like to read from people whom once tried an active crossover(instead of the stock), or others that tackled this issue before with this setup, and changed into a decent amp which fixes this issue. My target is to make everyone happy, staying with the RF-7 for smooth 2ch listennig, not necessarily with the amp. (*) If anyone's interested in the sample then PM me. BTW: RB-5 exhibits normal sibiliance on the sample.

Of course not; almost insulting. Squeezebox3's DAC is a fine one, and the stream is pure digital CD loseless (flac,ape,etc) so it's 1:1 with the Red book data. Same sibilance exhibts on all of my mid-fi transports. It's true that on my previous amplifier (ss, not tubes) I did not notice sibilance. Unmodded board, all three transformators are genuine Dynaco's. The 7199 are original Dynaco, I'm not sure about those condition. The rest of the tubes (Sovtek GZ34 and 4 not-identical-branded EL34's) are relatively new. Bias is perfectly measured 1.56V on both channels. Capicator has recently been repaired, and I'm waiting for a new one to arrive. Also note that since I'm on 220V 50Hz I have an upscale transformer with capacaty of max. 300watts. I've initally suspected the upscale and switched into another one used by pro broadcast components with thousansd of watts capacity. (biased tubes when switched) to make sure my upscale is not damaged - and it is not, so I moved back. When the ST powers on, a very small hum, audible only from close, is coming out from the woofers & horn, regardless of pre/volume. QED silver cables going out from the 4ohm tap are phase inverted (since my preamp is phase inverting; conrad johnson pv10al) and are bi-wired with bananas on both sides to the moded RF-7 x-over terminals (copper cables single wired didn't change much). Interconnects between pre & amp is a standard one due to the Dynaco vintge rca terminals. But interconnects to transports are Monster.

Carl, thanks for sharing. I do not watch movies at all ;-) I'm getting to share your reasoning. It's really a mess up now to dump the RF-7 after all this journey and money spent on components. (yes, I've moved into the tubes) leok, thanks for the motivation, it appears that the consistent defenders of the topic(and back to 2002) are you and DeanG. But my decision is that unless RF-7 peaks (see my sibilance thread also) get tamed/smooth soon without money spending, I'm moving on. To strengthen what cjgeraci wrote, I agree that it's problematic to argue what's the right sound, but those peaks in the horn are not a matter of cjgeraci's taste IMO, it's a requirement. Even if there exist perfect room acoustics, amplification and source, RF-7 isnt allowed (in my philosophy) to be that picky in this mid-fi level. 90% of its potential(or its successor's) buyers dont(or plan to) have that equipment. Concluding that it wasn't designed for that(2ch listenning), perhaps the whole Reference line. Maybe smart people found a way around it, but those haven't materialized for me yet.

In other words, I've got the sibilance disease. I'm not sure, but it's probably the amp. Anyone been to this journey with a dynaco st 70 that can shed a light ?

I've bypassed the preamplifier and connected the Squeezebox3 directly to the amp (the former has digital volume) and the problem persisted. I also tried all impedance (4/8/16) on the amp without any substantial relief to the problem. It happens on some recordings, right but I'm sure it shouldn't have been there. IMO, three options: 1. Peak in RF-7 horn 2. Peak generated by the crossover. 3. Amplifier is damaged.

I've switched the L&R pre tubes, replaced the pre-amp interconnect - no change. Couldn't narrow the problem to either L or R channel, both made the same amount of sshh or "vocal suffix". The only audible improvment I got is when I moved on the amp from 4ohm to 8ohm. However, it introduced a very small hum - normal? Could it be that my pre amplifierneed tube replacment? (or the pre section on the amp 7199..) It repeats on other recordings as well, e.g. Nirvana - Polly, Katie Meula - Calling Off The Search. (EDIT: NO CLIPPING, I'm earing it on low volume as well)

Haryy thanks, pre section of amp or preamplifier?

Heya all again, Lately I've bumped into records that on considerably average/high volume I get an annoying ssssshhhh suffix, especially on vocals. You know ... like a wierd ending to words, probably coming out from the horns, while the quality of the records is (known as) good. In the first minutes (while the amp is getting warmer) its noted easily, 10-15 minutes later it's less noted but still noted. My speaker are (moded) RF-7 and currently I run a Dynaco st 70 & conrad johnson pre. Speakers are toed in and are near walls. Transport is NAD and Squeezebox3. Interconnects between pre & power are cheap..