AltmanEars

Its not that your amp pre amp are overkill its merely that you have not optimized your system around its needs. Even if you had infinite financial resources you would not want to run Cornwalls with a 350 watt amp since amplifiers of this power rarely sound good. Furthermore AV processors of all prices sound pretty poor. When your hifi shares duty as your movie theater you are best off using some sort of passthru and a decent preamp. I would imagine that at this stage you have not heard a decent tube preamp with your system. I suggest you borrow one... If you substitute the bottom of the line McIntosh preamp for your current unit and you find that you really can't tell the difference --- you are in luck --- you can't really hear and any number of solutions should satisfy you...

I was hoping that someone would proclaim that they know alot more than Linkwitz and there is a valid technical reason why you wouldnt want to use an active crossover with a Klipschorn. Your contributions are very appreciated and don't feel bad about not owning a Klipsch --- I'm beginning to understand that the noun "Klipschorn" is used like "Fridgedor". Furthermore, if you started with stock Klipsch and merely replaced the crossover, the horns the bass drivers and the cabinet you would be where you are now .. A highly modified Khorn which you choose to call an Altec. BTW what crossover are you using and do you delay any of the drivers?

consistent --- I might not be reading you right... Are you using two amplifiers with an attenuator before the tweeter amplifier to adjust level --- with a standard AK4 network?. Please elaborate. Are the two amps identical?

Actually a passive crossover is so damaging to the sound that the foremost designer of passive crossovers in the world Seigfried Linkwtz only uses active crossovers in his speakers. Almost anything you can do to shape the waveform in the passive domain is deleterious to the purity of the sound. In fact it may be more critical to have steep slopes when using horn speakers yet, passive steep slopes can introduce massive phase issues. In addition, since most Klipsch owners appreciate tube amps you can better control the damping factor with an active setup. This is from Siegfreid's website Crossovers It is practically impossible for a single radiator to cover the 20 Hz to 20 kHz audio frequency range at adequate sound pressure levels (SPL) and with wide dispersion off-axis. At a 50 Hz bass frequency, for example, it takes an air volume displacement of 214 cm3 to generate 90 dB SPL at 1 m distance from the source in free space. Take a typical 6.5 inch (132 mm effective) diameter driver and its cone would have to move 14 mm peak-to-peak linearly, which by far exceeds its excursion capability (Ref. 4). At 1000 Hz, though, the same driver would have to vibrate only with (50/1000)2 = 1/400th of this excursion for the same 90 dB SPL, but now the cone is in its breakup region and no longer acts as a rigid piston, causing energy storage and deteriorating off-axis radiation. Thus, this driver will have to be complemented with a larger one for low frequencies, and a smaller one to extend the highs, in order to obtain full frequency range coverage. The electrical audio signal then needs to be divided between three drivers. The proper crossover of signals from one driver to the next is a subject of debate amongst audiophiles with some preferring a1st order Butterworth filter function . As often done, a single capacitor and resistor in the connection to the tweeter will not necessarily create a phase-linear 6 dB/octave crossover, but more something like a 18 dB/oct. acoustic response due to the inherent 12 dB/oct. highpass behavior of the tweeter itself. Furthermore, the tweeter will contribute a good amount of intermodulation distortion because the cone excursion wants to rise at 12 dB/oct. towards lower frequencies for constant SPL and the driver is not built for that. Add to this the wide frequency coverage overlap between tweeter and midrange, with the resulting irregular polar radiation pattern, and the 6 dB/oct. crossover becomes a costly solution for achieving waveform fidelity. At best, the goal may be obtained over a very small region in space and over a limited frequency range. But, does it matter to the listening experience, given some common observations? Networks that divide the electrical audio signal between different drivers must be designed with the driver characteristics and the driver layout in mind in order to obtain the desired acoustic crossover function and polar radiation pattern in conjunction with tolerable non-linear and linear distortion of the acoustic output. All crossovers involve design tradeoffs. For the Audio Artistry Beethoven-Elite system, for example, I used 24 dB/oct. and 12 dB/oct. Linkwitz-Riley (Ref. 17) and 6 dB/oct. Butterworth acoustic crossover filter responses. My latest design, the ORION, employs two 24 dB/oct filters for highest accuracy of perceived sound. I have a strong preference for line level active dividing networks ahead of the power amplifiers (Ref. 2, 12, 17). In this approach the power amplifier output is connected directly - except for a very low resistance speaker cable - to the voice coil of the driver. The amplifier takes maximum control over the motion of the speaker cone which gives a greater sense of clarity and dynamism compared to a passive dividing network between amplifier and driver. Active crossovers make much more effective use of amplifier power. A clipping woofer amplifier is not seen by the tweeter, which has its own amplifier. The clipping of the woofer amplifier may not even be noticed in this case. It would surely be heard with a passive crossover, where it might even overheat and damage the tweeter, because of the large amount of high frequency energy in the clipped signal. Crossover filters for a speaker usually incorporate frequency response corrections for the individual drivers to obtain a desired overall response. The active network has the advantage of correcting easily for different sensitivities of drivers and equalizing not only the individual drivers but the combined response as well. Not having to deal with the interaction between driver impedance and passive filter network gives the designer of an active crossover/equalizer much greater freedom and control to develop a superior product. This is not to say that one can't engineer a drop in Khorn top, cross it over passively and make better sound than stock.

Thanks I have the Linn sub which is better than the Top of the line REL on music. I also have the Martin logan subs. I owned the Jadis sub and a Hartley. After you listen to the Hartley the others aren't really subs... I've heard alot about the Altec and I owned several pr of VOT's (I just owned them I never listened to them except to playback my own practice sessions) The issue with buying your wonderful solution is that I'm not sure how it should sound. In other words I'm in no position to find a pr. evaluate and acquire a set. I'm also not sure there is any advantage over merely buying a new set of TAD's. Once you get the TAD's it doesnt much make sense to use Klipschorn bottoms and at that stage you dont really have a Khorn. Just an observation --- this is a funny forum --- it actually seems that no one likes Klipschorns. I wonder if Paul Klipsch knew he was building the world's first open architecture loudspeaker? Did he know his most ardent followers would own speakers which barely resemble Klipschorns? I think Klipsch should investigate what AMG did with Mercedes and copy the business model. I'd feel much better with an AMGed pair of Klipschorns than one's that I have "Macgyvered" using "better" parts from a Pioneer/JBL/Altec catalog.

sorry dup

Thanks Greg for the advice. It is my understanding that making Klipsch better is somewhat of a labor of love for you. To the end of simplifying a system how does adding and upgrading passive crossovers simplify a system when one can dramatically simplify the signal path with an active crossover? Here is a review by a horn enthusiast who has carefully listened to past Klipsch crossovers KLIPSCHORN (& LASCALA) MODIFICATIONS As I promised, a helpful reader has provided his extensive experiences with modifications of the two best Klipsch speakers. Here it is, with some minor editing and my bold: "I am a 28 year plus owner of Klipsch LaScala's. (Crossover to be moved into a set of Klipschorns.) I have spent over 6+ months getting the right parts to make the Klipsch sound right again. The original Klipsch used a no plastic foil in oil capacitor. I started with Sonicap Gen I's, Mundorf Supreme's, Mundorf Silver in Oil caps and Duelund VSF. When first putting in the Sonicaps, it struck me how the speakers changed in sound completely. They did not sound like Klipsch horn loaded speakers. I always thought horn speakers were a either love or hate them, but with the plastic caps they sounded like any other speaker? Next, I put in the Mundorf Supreme; Much better than the constrained dynamics of the Sonicaps. Of course, they were much larger. All the time, I kept one speaker original. I started to notice an odd thing: You could not listen to both speakers, at the same time, when the plastic caps were installed in one. Almost like they were out of phase? Next, I installed a Duelund VSF cap, that at the time was rated best in the world by Tony Gee and Tempo Electric. I was still using the vintage foil midrange cap for this test, as I did not have a Duelund midrange cap. One thing that struck me is I could now listen to both speakers. There was not the out of phase problem. Both the vintage and Duelund were foil caps. I was so impressed with the Duelund, I bought a set of CAST (yet untested by Tony or Tempo) caps for the tweeters. Ratings On All Capacitors Tested Tweeter caps 1. Duelund CAST- They make the #2 in the world, Duelund VSF, sound noisy by comparison. The CAST are rated #1 in the world, and in my opinion Tony does not do a good job stating just how much better they are. 2. Duelund VSF- These should be declared 'official replacement' for the vintage foil in oil caps in Klipsch speakers. Klipsch owners you will be blown away! The speakers will sound the same, but wayyyy less noise. 3. Mundorf Supreme- They are rough and crude by comparison to either Duelund's, and made things sound like plastic. This I could never live with, meaning plastic, but their dynamics are much better than Sonicaps. 4. Mundorf Supreme Silver in Oil- They sound similar to the Supreme, but tend to tilt the sound upward and end up not sounding as balanced as the Supreme. 5. Vintage Aerovox foil in oil- These came with the speakers. Wayyyyy too much noise. They have better dynamics than the Sonicaps, but with a trade off of much more noise. 6. Sonicaps- This may be a toss up to some people over the vintage; The trade off of less noise for less dynamics. I suspect many who have replaced the originals to these have like the noise reduction. I consider this a downgrade to the original caps. You get less noise, but lose what made the speakers so good in the first place: Realness. Midrange caps 1. Duelund VSF- An improvement over the vintage foil in oil in the midrange. They resonate less than vintage, but the improvement is not even close to the improvement you get in the tweeter caps. Duelund tweeter caps are slam dunk money in the bank improvements over vintage. The shortfall of these speakers is the CRUDE original foil in oil tweeter caps. 2. Aerovox vintage foil in oil- It's surprising the vintage foil in oil sounds quite good in the midrange, for as lousy as the vintage is in the tweeter section, they are 2nd best to the Duelund in the midrange. They sound like real people and instruments. 3. Mundorf Supreme- The dynamics are around the same as the vintage, or Duelund, but leaves an unmistakable plastic sound. 4. Sonicaps- Dynamics are lacking and they are much smaller. Sound compressed and dead. Best bang for the buck is, by far, replacing the vintage tweeter cap. To keep the "real sound", you need to go to a foil cap, and I can imagine no better than the #2 rated in the world: Duelund VSF. The Duelund CAST is MUCH quieter then even the VSF, but comes at price some may not be willing to pay. But make no mistake; The CAST are MUCH quieter, and who would have thought this at this level of capacitor. I am a 28 year owner of these speakers, so I am very familiar as to how they sound. I can say they have NEVER sounded anywhere near as good as they do now. They sound so good, I have sold one of my systems as it was not even worth listening too. Test equipment Front end: Linn LP12, Cirkus, Lingo, Ekos MkII and Linn Adikt. Linn Karik Pre-amps Linn Kairn (2003 latest version) Fisher x101d (and various other Fisher tube amps) Amps Linn Klout Speakers Klipsch LaScala's (1980), when done, they had 1 CAST tweeter cap and 1 VSF tweeter cap. Midrange cap was Duelund VSF. The crossover will be going into a set of Klipschorns. If money is no object, I would get the CAST tweeter caps (but I already owned the VSF). Speakers compared to were Linn 5140's. All Linn gear, except sources, now sold. Two systems were used through test time for months. The Duelund's made the biggest improvement with vintage tube gear and not as much with SS. If you follow Steen's writing's, using no plastic is crucial. Mixing foil and plastic caps is not good, and I would never have plastic caps again! The best cheap upgrade is to stick with as much parts as Paul Klipsch designed himself. Use the vintage foil in oil caps in the midrange and Duelund VSF for the tweeter caps. HUGE improvement for not much $. As money comes along, upgrade the midrange and to CAST, if one desires, for the tweeters. I would love to hear your opinion on where the Klipsch will rank after these upgrades, but I can assure it is MASSIVE! I have talked to the owner of Duelund, and he thinks of their caps as improved vintage, which is what they are and the improvement is huge! I plan to upgrade to a vintage amp with Duelund coupling caps in the future. Should the Klipschorn be ranked back at #1? I do not know, but I can say the Duelund improvement is as big as going from SS to tubes was for me." BTW this was from arthur salvatore's website As you can see passive crossover work is tough and in the end the caps this enthusiast selected were more expensive than the networks that are touted by the Klipsch faithful. In addition the caps are more expensive than many low end electronic crossovers. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, everyone who has suggested that I go for new replacement passive crossover networks has never heard new Klispch networks in a 2009 vintage KHORN. The logic for replacing tired crossovers in old speakers is entirely different than replacing new, matched to your new drivers, crossovers which are working as designed. All said it may be fun for you to build a spare top for my Khorns just to see how it all works in practical terms. I prefer the complete tops since at some point in time I'd like to sell unmolested 2009 Khorns, in the interest of good Klipsch stewardship...

A few points --- the midrange is fine with the futtermans but fixing the futtermans does cost more than a really good SET amp. OTOH futtermans may be significantly better than most SET amps. The only SET amp I heard was not in my system and was roughly 65K. Someone mentioned bass...I was looking for quality not quantity. I have a number of expensive subwoofers and I dont think they work well for music with Khorns. I think the Khorn may need a massive horn loaded subwoofer. I don't listen to the kind of music that requires a subwoofer which would match the Khorn seemlessly. Relative to the CLS. The CLS is more colored than the Klipsch and has no macro dynamics. There is a high freq glare on the CLS which is more prominent than the Klipsch. In my testing I have found that the room itself has a high frequency glare which causes some distortion of an unamplified voice. The other thing I found was that my Khorns are only 2db down in level at 20ft as they are from 3 feet. This must be from ceiling reflections.

Tony I'm trying to read between the lines but it sounds like you used amps that you didnt like then triamped using a digital crossover which is likely only to work at higher volume (these devices are optimized for PA use where bit loss is not a real problem in practice --- most of them use cheap op amps etc... ) --- then went to a simpler higher quality topography and found that the sound is better. Question is, arent you better off with a solid state amp on the bottom and a really good SET on top rather than finding a SET to run fullrange. Isnt it easier to fit a camel through a needle than to find a SET with good bass (I think I read that in the bible) In other words if I were to run the speaker fullrange with a single amp I'd be shopping Wavelength, SOPHIA, Audionote, Cary, I might have to step up to a 211 tube amplifier... IF I was going to run the bass with SS I'd be open to Bottlehead 2A3 monoblock amps or some of the other sub $2000 offerings in the marketplace. Does that sound logical.

These are Klipsch B-Stock and they had the new Klipsch smell and no evidence they had been used except that the metal feet on the bottom were slightly scratched. As far as hours are concerned I can't say if they were ever used by Klipsch or a dealer. I would imagine that the crossovers are AK5 since that appears in the documentation. According to the serial number decoder these were the first speakers built in March of 2009. The Linn has a Klyde, but I havent listened to vinyl since the system has to be tuned prior to using a source that revealing.

Sorry I will be going active eventually. This does not require me to tinker with the passive Klipsch crossover since I would be bypassing it...

Coytee I probably should have listened to you before since the Khorns will cost me more in the end than the Jubs. BTW I was not clear -- the Khorns are new so the crossovers are new and I dont plan to replace the crossover components. BTW I dont remotely believe in upgrading passive crossovers. The best passive crossover capacitors are more expensive than an active crossover and Klipsch dont require expensive amps. Fact is I'm thinking any SS amp will drive the bass and the tops can be driven by 2 to 4 300B or 2A3 amps which one can buy for reasonable money. I should point out that the new Khorn crossover is very good and on my pr. it does actually matter which top you attach to which bottom (they are matched)

Its been about 18 months since I asked a few Khorn questions and I was recently fortunate enough to acquire a class B set directly from Klispch. I must confess I never heard Klipsch before I bought them. (My local Klipsch dealer does not carry Heritage so rather than hopping in the plane/car to visit a few dealers it became more economical to merely buy a pair and take my chances). I'm glad I did. Please let me fill in a few details before I ask questions. The environment: I'm using the Khorns in a 19 X 30 X 9 room which is completely dedicated to hifi. In other words, the room has a number of tube traps, absorbers/reflective panels which can be moved. The room has a separate 100amp panel with heavy gauge wiring to each hospital grade receptacle. Digital circuits have been separated from analog circuits. The equipment: The front end choices include top end Linn gear both turntable and CD. The electronics include the Linn gear, Futterman OTL amps, NYAL amp/pre. Linn pre/pro, Mcintosh pre/pro The sound: My first encounter was with the tube gear which has not been retubed for 8 years. I found that I had a problem with microphony and quickly switched the gear out to a stack of high end mid '90's linn gear. This gear gave the Klipsch a overly energetic sound which was slightly bright on some recordings. The brightness was compensated by a thunderous bass. Something else I noticed is that the Khorn never seems to be able to give one a completely dry presentation. There is always a touch of depth which is not entirely unpleasant but may indicate time domain errors which can be easily removed with an active crossover. Most importantly my wife and I were completely won over by the dynamics which give a live feeling to all the music we enjoy. The only price we had to pay was the lack of a completely smooth midrange --- like we get with our Martin Logan CLS's. (which we still have) I'm bad about selling hifi --- really bad. Now I'd like to improve my Khorns and I'm thinking about the following: 1. Run them active with either a 2 way or 3 way crossover. 2. Run a digital equalizer 3. Replace the solid state mids and highs with a nice tube amp 4. Replace the mid and high horns with something more linear My first inclination would be to buy a digital equalizer since this would allow me to run a spectrum analyzer to view and cure any frequency related room problems before I tackle new tube amps. Also If I went to a active setup has anyone done this by using a solid state amp on the bass bin and a tube on the high end with the tweeter midrange adressed by the existing passive Klipsch crossover?

Sorry about the confusion on the equipment--- I can do phono since I have a complete Linn setup with the Linto...The MX119 is used for theater. It stinks for 2 channel.

Thanks again for the gracious invite and for all of the advice --- you folks are a great bunch and perhaps the most diverse group of music lovers on the net... From what I gather this is the general view --- 1. Khorns may not be the way to go --- you may have to replace the crossovers and the horns at a minimum --- even after that is done, your room may not work and the bass bin will not afford you accurate bass and may cloud the mid-range. 2. To solve 1. Jub's may be the ticket especially if you are sight impared. BUT Jubs require a bit of engineering relative to appropriate crossovers. In looking at the alternatives I'm not sure why I wouldnt have someone like Dr. Bruce Edgar engineer an appropriate horn system... It seems if he can improve a Khorn his complete solutions may just be the ticket. Relative to electronics there are three camps 1. dont want to hear the difference 2. love tubes and preferable SET --- No experience with Shindo or Audio note claimed 3. hear a difference and prefer trannys I hope I captured your collective knowledge and thanks again

You folks really know how to stir up issues --- thanks.... Let me answer a few of the issues and make a few obsevations. 1. Jub's in concept may be great --- they are two way and can be actively bi-amped --- on the other hand the Jubs in the catalog don't look like the jubs that are in the Paul Klipsch picture and I think I like the looks of the more domesticated version --- Is a possible solution buying the standard bins and having someone like martinelli build some custom wood horns??? 2. As far as amps and crossovers are concerned I'd only be interested in tubes --- a custom made tube crossover is fine. 3. Finances --- I'm trying to do the most with the least --- don't we all --- as far as what "league" I'm in --- I'm your basic guy trying to make an honest buck. 4. Source equipment is adequate --- I have the Linn Karik Numerik and CD12 players and an LP 12 for a turntable. I plan to have a custom Garrard 301 built/rebuilt. I have 4 preamps in VA... A Linn Kairn Pro pre, A NYAL tube pre --- vintage, A Mcintosh MX119, A Linn AV pre (sounds a bit better than the Mac) 5. Music is too diverse to mention --- everything. Classic, Smooth Jazz, Pop etc... Hope that answers all questions --- thanks for the replies built.

Am I reading that right? You would order a new pair of Khorns, and if you don't like them, you will sell them on Audiogon? If that is true, Why would you do that? Wouldn't a smarter thing to do, buy used Khorns first, if you like them, then order New, and sell the old one's? I think you would take a big bath selling new Khorns ............ but, maybe I read that wrong, won't be the first time !!! SARATOGA SPRINGS here ................. where you located ? Strange but true --- I am trying to optimize the sound of the Khorn setup so it seemed logical to start with a known quantity --- a new Khorn --- plus the economy is a bit punk why not send some money to Arkansas....? BTW my location got mangled --- I'm a CT/NY person with a home in VA --- the VA home would get the KHORN since it has relatively larger rooms. I have any number of decent amps to drive them its just that my experience has been that smaller tube amps sound best --- I have a few small tranny amps Linn Klimax, Klout and I plan to buy a new tube amp just for the Klipsch --- Shindo was at the top of the list but Audio Note , Wavelength Manley etc would be fine...I'm trying to stay under $20K for amp and preamp unless there is a really good reason to go higher....(eg. ---a supermodel comes with the amp ...ha ha )

Hello music lovers --- I'm attempting to put together a system around Khorns in a rather small room. I have a few questions. 1. The room is 16 x 28 x 9 but I cant place the speakers in the reccommended long wall corners but in the 16 ft corners, would this really reduce the sound quality to the point that I should consider other speakers? 2. I'd love to focus on amps/preamps --- my budget is rather flexible and I have some good equipment already... For those who have heard both, would you favor Shindo push pull over McIntosh tubes on Khorns. (I have a MX119 for a home theater but so far I'm not happy with the McIntosh sound finding the DAC's a bit mediocre and the preamp section of the MX119 less than transparent and musically flat. --- of course that does not speak to the amps but if the MX is any indication ----???) 3. I love the idea of the HE low powered system, which is why I'm looking at the KHorns. I intend to order a new pair --- if I dont like them I'll sell them through audiogon, could anyone venture a guess at what a barely used pr of KHORN would sell for used...? In other words if my plans go pear shaped what would the pain be??? Thanks in advance for your thoughts