kdonn

An update... So I arranged to hear a Chorus II system through a friend of a friend today. I schlepped my MC240 over to the guy's house just to hear as close as possible what my own equipment would sound like. I didn't have my preamp and of course I didn't have my room, but I had my amp and my music, a good selection this time. I wasn't sure how easy it would be for him to reconnect things, and it turned out to not be very easy, so I connected my cd player directly to my MC240, put it in twin-amp mode, and used the gain controls for volume. Worked pretty well. I also listened to his system with his Rotel pre and power. And for the record, this guy has been through something like eight sets of Klipsch speakers including a pair of La Scalas. He mentioned that years ago he used to use a Denon amp too and realized after hearing Rotel that it sounded terrible. So there's another experienced Klipsch fan saying Denon and Klipsch don't go so good together. I can certainly attest to the RF-83s sounding pretty bad with the Denon amp I heard. He was actually familiar with that very same system at the store I heard it in and confirmed that not only is it a Denon amp, it's a Denon home theater receiver with the pre and power in the same unit. It just seems odd they'd use that system for selling. Anyway, offhand, I couldn't hear much difference between his Rotel and my McIntosh amplifier. They both sounded very nice with the Chorus II pair. I still find the top end very bright, as I did with the RF-83s, but they were not bright and strident or harsh, just bright. I would be tempted to eq it out. The bottom end, however, was a whole different animal from the RF-83s. It was big, fat, round, and very much there. Definitely nothing to complain about. They definitely didn't have quite the extension of my CSW Towers, but that was the only aspect where they didn't absolutely trounce the Towers. Percussion attacks were very nice, but not quite as tight and fast as the RF-83s. The bottom line is that these are definitely speakers I could live with, far superior in almost every way to my CSW Towers, but I suppose I'm preaching to the choir there. The other news for purposes of this thread is that I played around with using my sub for music quite a bit over the weekend, and I've gone back to my original prohibition of subs with music for my own tastes. There were just all kinds of annoying little problems. The biggest of course being that bass being non-directional is simply nonsense. I think you could put that sub anywhere in my room, blindfold me, and I could tell you where it was within seconds. There were also crossover problems and nasty phase-induced interference problems. I do love the extra extension and I would love to be able to have those lows, but not at the price I think I'd have to pay in terms of sacrifice of accuracy or painstaking tuning. It would be a lot of expensive and frustrating tweaking I'm afraid. I think I'd be happier just to get a reasonably full range speaker and be done with it. So I think my wife and I have agreed that the Klipschorn, La Scala, and Belle Klipsch are out. The Chorus II and Cornwall are still in play, but she would much prefer the more modern cabinets of the RF series. I've also decided that I would never be able to rest without having at least tried B&Ws and Thiels. My current plan (what, like plan G now?) is to take my time, try to find good buys on things over the course of the next few months, and sample what's available, selling off what doesn't work for me. Kaiser, I'd still love to hear your La Scalas but at this point I think I'd like to hear your B&Ws even more. Thanks all for your input and patience! kd

One thing I'm worried about with Cornwalls is the ported bass design. I've had a lot of ported speakers and the bass never seems as tight and clean as the non-ported designs. When I started thinking about getting new speakers a few months ago, that was part of my original criteria - no ports. I've been wavering on this like I've been wavering on the no-subs prohibition. But originally I was thinking Thiel and he never uses ports. It seems the Chorus design isn't ported and I'm planning to listen to a Chorus system this weekend. I know the whole RF series is ported, but like I said, I'm wavering. Is this something I should get over? kd

It has been a policy of mine for a long time to never buy new speakers without hearing them in my own room with my own equipment. And I've pretty much only ever bought new speakers. But used speakers will usually require a different approach. I'll have to be careful to buy things I can resell close to what they cost me. kd

So what *is* the proper placement of the 83s? I haven't tried to pull up the owner's manual, but what works in practice? kd

Right, the Foo Fighters album may not have much bass. I mentioned that I was only able to grab the disks I had at work and I'm really not that familiar with that Foo Fighters album. The Bowie album, though, I'm pretty intimate with and it has a lot of serious low stuff. I'm probably going to wind up listening to a Cornwall before I make a decision, and I'll probably also get a pair of 83s to audition at home. I did, in fact, walk all around the room at one point to hear how things changed. I didn't notice the bass ever coming to life, but I did notice that the speakers don't spray sound everywhere anywhere near as bad as my CSW Towers do, and that's a good thing. The only reason I was think La Scala was because I was (and am) considering throwing in the towel on my prohibition of subs. I think if I just make my peace with subs for music, then my options broaden out very attractively. And I suspect I'll wind up using a sub anyway down the road. Better to make that decision now and benefit than later and have to regroup again. I'm pretty sure the RF-83s will get another chance to show me their stuff with my old MC240. kd

I'm actually going to listen to the Chorus IIs of a friend of a friend on Sunday, so that might help me make some decisions. If I stick to Craigslist, I'll probably get to hear a variety. kd

That's good to hear. I've never been a fan of Denon, but I did use an HK receiver for years before moving into Mac equipment. I always loved the way my HK sounded and I found it to have a lot of the same characteristics that my Mac C39 and MC240 have today. You guys are helping, but you're not making things any easier. [^o)] kd

I just can't recall what they were driving the 83s with. I know the Khorns were driven with a Denon 80w. The 83s were driven with an amp that had about 130w I remember, but I can't remember the brand, although I'm pretty sure it was also a Denon. I wasn't worrying about it too much because I had no intentions of buying them without taking them home for an audition first on my MC240. And yes, I've heard it often said that Klipsch is very dependent upon a high quality amp and that the 240 is just about the perfect amp for these guys. So it could still happen. I'm still trying to work out all the angles. I haven't quite given up on Khorns yet. kd

Thanks, everyone, for your input, and keep it coming. It has been very informative. I took off early from work and made my way over to the oldest hi-fi shop in Little Rock, Custom Audio. I had called ahead and asked whether they had RF-83s on the floor and they did. So I spent an hour and a half in a room with the RF-83s and the handful of CDs that were on my desk at work and in my car. It was a fairly eclectic little collection itself with Charlie Parker, Yo Yo Ma playing Dvorak, Black Sabbath, David Bowie, The Clash, The Arcade Fire, Foo Fighters, and Grateful Dead. Not what I would have brought if I had planned an audition, but it was good enough. I didn't listen to them with a sub. I found them to be wonderfully detailed. The percussion attacks in particular were extraordinary. Having listened to almost nothing but Henry Kloss speakers for twenty years, the RF-83s were very bright, sometimes even a bit strident. Bass, particularly soft bass like a tympani strike or a softly kicked bass drum, was rendered with excellent subtlety and precision. But the bass that should punch you in the face on cuts from Foo Fighters and David Bowie's Outside album just wasn't there. We probably could have dialed some in, but running flat (adjusted for room acoustics) I found it to be absent. I think they were using a 130w Denon amp. The soundstage listening to Dick's Picks Vol. 4 was wide and precise and I couldn't discern any coming forward of the instruments. The imaging on the Dvorak was less steady and it seemed a little harsh on the highs here and there. I had forgotten how nicely produced the first Black Sabbath album is and it sounded excellent on the RF-83s, although again a bit lacking on the bottom end. The Charlie Parker CD I had was so poorly recorded that it wasn't really good for this. Also in this room was a pair of Klipschorns driven with an 80w Denon. I spent about half an hour listening to that as well but only with the Dvorak. It was pretty striking how everything that was wrong with the RF-83s completely evaporated with the Klipschorns. They well deserve their price and reputation. The only thing even slightly amiss about them was that they were positioned on the long wall of the room, so they were a little far apart and the soundstage caved in a bit in the middle. But what stunning imaging and perfectly creamy response. I didn't listen to anything on them that required any bass to speak of, so I can't say anything about how it would sound, but an orchestra sounds stunning on them. So I walked out being a little put off the RF-83s and rethinking the whole situation again. Thanks to seti who mentioned buying used Heritage speakers through Craigslist. I scouted around on it tonight and found a pair each of Chorus IIs, Klipschorns, Heresies, and Cornwalls. No La Scalas or Fortes. I've totally thought through my listening room and there is absolutely no way I'd be able to get Klipschorns in here. No way. And my wife nearly cried at the thought. I think I might be able to sell her on La Scalas, although she was completely distraught and said they looked like her grandmother's sewing machine cabinet. And I'm rethinking the sub as well. Using a sub really broadens out my choices. I'm currently thinking to buy an RT-10d and then see what I can pick up in a used La Scala, Chorus, or Cornwall. Thoughts? kd

I definitely found the 240 adequate for the CS Towers, but we all know that sometimes you don't miss what you've never heard. One of my old buds has a pair of McIntosh XR1052s powered by an MC2002 and a C35, and his system always seems to sound more effortless and elegant, particularly in the bass, than mine. But I've never been sure what to blame it on - my considerably more "consumer" speakers or the fact that he has 160 more McIntosh watts than I have, despite mine being tube driven. Or maybe it's just room acoustics, although we've both been through several room changes. Unfortunately he lives too far away for us to be trading components for testing. Since I'm replacing speakers for the first time in ten years, I don't want to make the mistake all over again of getting speakers that are going to nag me. I tend to think the weak link in my system is the Towers, but I just don't know. I don't have decent corners. If I did, I would almost certainly consider used Khorns. I could probably finagle the room to come up with two corners, but it would be a radical change and my wife would almost certainly leave me. kd

I'm in Little Rock. I'd need to check on dealers in the area. I'm not real sure what my budget is. I can actually afford well more than I'm willing to spend, if that makes any sense. It's not so much that I can't imagine how great a really expensive system can be, it just seems frivolous to spend that kind of money on audio. So I think realistically I can't see myself spending much more than a few thousand on speakers and I'd be delighted to find something I'm happy with under $2K, and I think that's doable. I'm not at all above buying used as well. The room is about 14' x 21' and has sloped ceilings in part of it. The sitting area is in one end of the room so the speakers would pretty much need to be on the other end. They could be close to the wall on the far end of the room. If they were brought forward into the room, they'd have to be less separated because of furniture/doors on the long walls. On the back wall, they could be separated by as much as 10' or so, but forward in the room, they could only be about 6-7' apart. On the back wall they'd be something like 18' from the listener's head. I don't think any of the Heritage speakers will fly mainly because my wife would veto any really big cabinets. Plus the bottom end specs on almost all the Heritage speakers seem really lacking. I listen to a lot of different music, but plenty of it will have synthesized bass that gets well under 40Hz, and again, I don't want to use a sub. But I'm willing to be told I'm mistaken. kd

The bottom line is that I want to feel pretty confident that the RF-83 is going to impress me before I go to all the trouble to get a pair in my home. I only reluctantly call myself an audiophile and I'd much rather spend my time listening to my music than fiddling around with equipment. I've gradually collected my system over the years by very deliberately auditioning components and only sticking with what made me happy. Things went awry when I moved to a new house a few years ago and I've never gotten things quite ironed out again. I'm now running a McIntosh C39 with an MC240 for power. I've been a Henry Kloss fan since the 80s when I bought a pair of Advent Smallers. Currently I'm using a pair of Cambridge Soundworks Towers bought before Henry left CS. The bipole design really throws a lot of sound out the back and in my current room, that means out the door which means whenever I listen the whole house listens with me, more than I'd prefer. So I've been thinking about going with a pair of Thiels but I'm worried I'd have to give up my MC240 because it might not have enough power. Which has led me to looking at Klipsch. I have very little experience listening to Klipsch but their emphasis on efficiency has got me interested. But I'm skeptical about the bass. I'd rather not have to run a sub with music mainly because it seems it would just be nearly impossible to get all the crossover, coherence, and phase issues worked out to have any hope of accuracy. What I'm mostly wondering is how a speaker like the RF-83, which doesn't get the benefit of horns for the bass, actually manage to efficiently produce bass. Am I wrong in thinking that bass is what really sucks up power? If not, is this part of how Klipsch achieves efficiency, by so greatly reducing the power consumption of the mids and highs that more power can be allocated to bass? I know ultimately I'll just need to get a pair and listen to them for myself, but given that Paul Klipsch had such a low tolerance for BS, it seems reasonable to expect no BS in understanding how these things work. So will my MC240 be more than adequate to drive the RF-83s? Should I consider something else? kd