[OT. Best Rootin, tootin Handgun, AR or Rifle for�]

Hummmm....Bacon.

Your attempt to deflect our responses to your attack on the gun totin' members of the board, while skillful, has failed.

[BEST BALD MUSICIANS]

Phil Collins

[OT. Best Rootin, tootin Handgun, AR or Rifle for�]

Too bad we can't properly deal with evil people. If we could, I wouldn't feel the need to protect myself from them.

How many times have you used your guns to actually, specifically protect yourself from evil people?

Well if you wanted me dead, better shoot from across the street or from a sniper position (I don't know any evil people who wants me dead that bad)

Butttttt....If said evil doer is trying to mug/capture me and has a gun to my head......I presently know 8 different gun disarm scenarios and practice them 2-3 times per week with one of the best in the business. More than likely I will shoot the evil guy with his own gun than get shoot myself.

The techniques you are using all depend on one thing, that you can move quicker than your assailant can pull a trigger. Which contrary to the uninformed beliefs of some, you can do. Your techniques work, don't they.

I feel much more comfortable carrying a small blade......If you get jumped at night/blindsided...I doubt that the aggressor will give you time to pull your gun and us it affectively ..... home invasion? well you roll the dice you take your chances......

On one hand you espouse that you know several disarm techniques and on the other hand doubt that others can react quickly enough to make a difference? As you well know training is the key...

Firearms are the great equalizer. But they do not guarentee anything.

[OT. Best Rootin, tootin Handgun, AR or Rifle for�]

…killing an abortion doctor. While your at it, my fine Christian souls, will he be nearer his Lord if he is shot before, during or after church services.

I have no idea and could not care less. God WILL know his own.

Said weapon must be a mutli-tasker suitable for also taking out:

- African-American security guards at Jewish Holocaust Memorials

I'd stick with some variant of the M-16/AR-15 platform. Ammo is light so you cam shoot more of them on the move...

- slaughtering former co-workers

I'm guessing you'd probably want to use a shotgun for this, really mess them up since you hate them so much.

- -shooting up institutions of learning from grade school up through post-doctoral

Doesn't really matter here as those who believe as you do have turned these institutions in to gun free killing zones...

- Readily portable so they can be sold to Mexican drug cartels and used to kill more people than we lost on 9-11

Good thing you are not running the Cartels, as they have the sense to get most of their guns from other countries, where fully automatic weapons are freely traded. (Might help you to do some real reasearch before throwing out already disproven Media hype as an arguement)...

- Lightweight enough so children can get a firm grip on them when aiming at their playmates

I have found that children as young as 6 or 7 can easily handle an AR.

- Be pried from your cold dead hands when your spouse shoots you

Knowing my wife if she ever shoots me she would have a darn good reason and I'll probably deserve it. At least she would know how to use the darn thing and only need one shot, unlike you...

… and it must be positively, guarantied 100% American made.

Hummm. Hard to be sure ANYTHING is 100% USA today. My Bushmaster sez it is USA made, but I would not bet the farm on it...

Sorry guys, if some of you are insulted so be it. How do you think many of us here feel with these never-ending weapons threads that pop up incessantly. Not to mention the false bravado, the tortured Constitutional rationales, the blithe disregard of the toll guns take on society.

Hey, I'm new here. Most of the gun boards I frequent cover topics from political discussion(banned here) to cooking, electronics, world and US history, international relations and many many more topics.

If I find a thread that doesn't interest me, I don't read it. Is that too hard a concept for you?

Huntin. Fishin. Go right ahead, but if you want to prattle on with this Deputy Dawg crap take it on over to a gun nut forum. It is my understanding that this site is for discussing audio gear and of course,

Bacon!

I was invited here by someone that wanted me to post in an area that I have no little expertise in. And to be totally honest I don't give a good darn bit if it offends you or not. If something I say offends the board operator or moderators they can censor it or me as they choose. Until such time I will ad my $.02 to topics that I either have sometyhing on point to add or questions to ask.

Have a blessed day

Mac

[OT...Compact Pistols]

I read this thread with alarm. I am shocked at the macho fantasies of gun fans. I am surprised at the number of people who think there is so much crime around them that they must carry a tool designed to kill humans with them at all times. Why would you even be any where near such situations where any thing like that might even possibly happen? (Why is there anybody still living in the Middle East with its two-thousand year record of violence?)

A couple of points:

1. I have seen little "Macho fantasy" in this thread. I have read a lot of wishful thinking by those who seem to believe that crime is only in bad areas or somehow people always "ask" to be assaulted or robbed.

2. A firearm is a tool, as you stated. As such it is no more good or bad than any other tool. Were it a tool with out a use it would disappear like any other useless or out moded tool.

3. Apparently some people find somethings worth a fight. Hard for you to fathom, isn't it?

I don’t know any body that has ever been mugged, robbed or assaulted by strangers. I don’t think most of us live in those kinds of neighborhoods. I do know several once-married men falsely charged with domestic violence prior to their divorce! Yet gun fans love to spin the “shoot-out in the streets” scenario. British police don’t even carry guns and they see far more crime than all of us.

More points:

1. I am glad you know no one that has been robbed or mugged or assaulted. It is sad that you are in the minority, as most people DO know such people.

2. Beat it into your head, crime happens everywhere. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not happening around you.

3. No sane person wants a "shoot out in the streets". Too bad what you want and what you get are not always the same thing.

4. Funny how since the Britsh people have been effectively disarmed, NOW the police seem to think they need to carry firearms more and more.

I was approached by two young black men last year in the middle of a parking lot. It felt very scary. I was ready to run them over with a van, but I did not perceive a life threatening situation. Had I been carrying, I am sure the situation would have been much worse – I might have shot one or both of them. For what? The petty cash in my pocket – the inconvenience of having to cancel a credit card and re-order a drivers license? The unbearable insult to my masculinity? (Yes, that is the real reason I would have been glad to shoot them both.)

Stll More:

1. If you did not feel threatened, how come you were afraid? In the same situation I would never have even considered "running them over" (please explain to me how your 4000lb+ vehicle is less deadly than my 230Gr bullet) nor pulling my weapon.

2. You are certainly good at keeping your head firemly buried in the sand. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOUR MONEY OR CREDIT CARDS. It is about protecting your LIFE which is in danger the moment some one walks up to yo and sez "Gimme your stuff or else..." just what do you think "Or else" means? They gonna give you a fuzzy rub? Maybe you want to hand your life over to the hands of a thief or worse, but I do not.

Yet the scariest thing to happen to me recently was two young armed policemen pushing their way into my house in March 2009 without a warrant, demanding to see my roommate (who was not at home). Several criminal defense attorneys told me that this happens all the time. Think a gun would repel that home invasion? What good is such a fun tool if you can’t use it?

Now I am confused, I thought there was no crime in your area. If so exactly why are the police searching your home? It is a normal reaction to be nervous around authority figures, but scared? Really? Unless you have something to hide. But that is your business.

And as a side note, I hope I never have to use my "fun tool". But I much prefer the option to do so over not having the option to do so.

If I really perceived a physical threat, I would have motion sensitive exterior lights, spy hole, dead bolt, safety lock, big dogs, fence, Tazer, nun chucks, baseball bat, shotgun and pepper spray. I would get all those things before carrying a heavy, expensive, unusable weapon that requires constant practice for some macho “get to kill somebody for free” fantasy. Then I would move.

All of which are tools to be used to defend yourself. At least one of which you listed are capable of deadly force. I carry a side arm. It is my choice and it is a wise one in my opinion and experience. It is most certainly not the end all or be all of my existence, nor does it defiine who or what I am. But it does say that I understand a bit about the realities of the world. And that I am willing to take steps to control my own destiny. Apparently others are happy leaving that for strangers to decide for them.

I find that concept disgusting and very very sad...

[OT...Compact Pistols]

I agree it is a funny world and it is interesting to see how other people live.

Hummm, fear of litigation trumps fear of death in your world. Which is it, Californication or Taxachewsus?

And while you hated carrying a cell phone, probably largely because of the limits it placed on your freedoms, I on the other hand enjoy carring a weapon largely due to the freedoms it preserves for me.

Does deciding to carry a firearm have responsibilities attached to it? Of course. Any time you decide to take action to become more self determining there are costs. For me it makes more sense for me to have to explain to a Judge why I shot some one than for some cop to explain to my wife why I won't be coming home again...EVER.

But to each their own. Everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. Iam sure some here would find my Sansui 9090DB and AR9s to be wanting. But for me in my world and for my tastes it fits fine, and has for 30 years. I do find the choice to be a victim slightly more important than my choice of sound systems.

[OT...Compact Pistols]

DeanG did an excellent job taking the keys right from under my fingertips - thank you (though I don’t have the stones to call BS on someone who carries half his weight in armaments).

I assume you are refering to his response to my post. First and foremost I don't BS about guns.

To fill in…

Mr. McKown, I understand exactly where you're coming from, and even though I disagree with you on some points, I don't feel it’s my mission to attempt to convert you, nor should you me. I like to think such diversity is what helps make America such a great place. That said, some of the best advice I’ve ever received is to keep an open mind and to rotate a problem or issue so as to view, discuss and understand it from all sides. I’ve learned many important things applying that guidance.

I have a very open mind. I just am not going to be convinced by as you like to put, BS.

I was being facetious when I mentioned exchanging gunfire from inside an automobile. If someone approaches your car with no visible weapon they could simply be lost and seeking directions or homeless and seeking change.. BUT….. I BELIEVE the Castle Doctrine CAN apply to you in your vehicle, so pulling a weapon under such circumstances (no visible threat) MAY be okay. However, if traffic has you boxed in (or ANY scenario for that matter ) and a legitimate threat presents itself, by pulling your weapon (assuming you’ve the chance) you escalate the situation and in an instant you’re both committed - it’s him or me. If there is more than one perpetrator, you’re holding Jacks and they’re holding Aces.

And there in lies your first mistake. IT IS NOT A GAME!!!!!!!!!!

I know the variables are virtually infinite and that I tend to err on the side of caution but that’s just the way I’m wired, which is again why I don’t carry. To my way of thinking, carrying a weapon creates a sort of internal tension, like walking around with a grenade in your hand, pin pulled. Losing that tension over time is the equivalent of complacency, which breeds carelessness, until one day you drop the grenade. That’s the problem with being Human – we’re HUMAN.

Internal Tension? What the H is that? What it does do is drop a huge load of responsibility directly on your shoulders. And Hey, I guess you know better than any one else if you can hack it or not. It is a free country, you wanna be a victim, go for it.

OP, on your stated topic I wish you nothing more than many happy hours of range time (double up on hearing protection, plugs AND muffs, especially indoors).

May your God go with you.

Have a Blessed day...

Edited to remove political comment.

[OT...Compact Pistols]

Extremely difficult topic to give advice upon simply because I believe it involves one’s abilities, both mental and physical, more so than a legal right.

In which case you would be wrong. The feeblest individual has the right to defend themselves. As does a 250Lb professional football player. I will agree that individuals that chose to carry take on a responsibility to train and prepare themselves. It is a right that carries with it huge responsibilities.

I agree with AnalogWave on this point, which you've missed. He's not saying he believes a person doesn't have the right to defend themselves, but that the ability to do so is dependant on the person's skillsets and their ability to execute.

For course your ability to defend yourself is dependant upon your ability to defend yourself. But that was not how I took his statement. I took it to mean that if you are not a seasoned user of firearms you should not carry. And that is just plain wrong. Those who decide to carry should make a comittment to obtain at least a minimum level of profiency and weapons handling skills. Just because you aren't shooting thousands of rounds a month (something I did do for a ten year period of my life) does not mean that you should be restricted from or even decide on your own, not to CCW.

I too choose not to carry,

Why?

Probably for the same reasons I don't. 1) I live in a low crime area, 2) can't think of any scenerio I might encounter where I would be at an advantage by having a weapon on me, and 3) unless someone pulls a gun on me first -- if I shoot someone I'm going to prison.

1) Low crime is not NO crime. 2) Really? You must not be thinking very hard 3) depends on where you live and what the situation is. Personally I would not live where you are not allowed to defend yourself against bigger or knife weilding or bat shaking opponents.

...but come down firmly on the side of ownership and concealed carry for those that prove their ability to do so. It’s such a huge responsibility however, one I can only equate with bringing a child into this world, oddly enough. If you doubt your will, even the slightest bit, it’s my opinion you have no business carrying a weapon.

The first step to becoming a victim is to resolve to be one. The first step to STOP being a victim to to resolve to STOP being one, and take steps to ward that goal

Again, you missed his point. Read it again. I tell people I shoot with and teach to not confuse tactics with the will to execute. Knowing what to do and doing it are not the same thing.

Again I do get his point. It is you who refuse to get mine. Those who choose not to develope the resolve are choosing to be victims. Period. In my civilian life I have been in situations where I made the decision to shoot. In both cases my rather obvious resolve defused the situation quickly. In those instances my assailant became very quickly aware of several things

1. I was armed.

2. I was not outwardly afraid of him/them.

3. Some how their intended victim was giving them orders.

4. What ever I had in my wallet was not worth dying for.

Of note is that I HAVE NEVER HAD TO DRAW MY CCW WEAPON. Also of note is that had I drawn it I would have immediately fired.

The shear number of possible scenarios, anyone of which could leave you in legal jeopardy let alone physical, are staggering.

It sounds contrite, but better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Judged by 12 and carried by 6 can amount to the same thing if you screw up. You may screw up and just be carried by 6 nonetheless. I think it's funny how wannabe gunslingers always assume they're going to come out on top.

In todays environment it is unlikely anything but the most blatant actions would get you charged with either 1st degree murder or felony murder. Should you be so charged I seriously doubt you will be convicted of such. If convicted the odds of being executed are going to be as close to ZERO as to make the event a statistical impossibility.

Winning is never a given. However, I will stack my 40 years of firearm experience, several shooting schools (John Shaw and Chapmans to drop just a couple names) and a few hundreds of thousands (realistically on the low side) of rounds down range combined with military combat experience against most any street thug I have run across.

To be blunt I find the secong half of your comment above to be insulting and over the top. I am more than happy tp argue points with people without throwing around insults.

Basically, it comes down to the element of surprise, which is almost always with the criminals.

Only if YOU let it be that way

Please provide one example where you have the tactical advantage.

With out a weapon to defend myself with I can't. However, proper use of situational awareness techniques will help avoid the very "surprise" situations you are talking about. The few bad situations I have fallen into happened not because I was not situationally aware, but because I dismissed a possible threat because I was just "being paranoid". Had I listened to the alarm bells in my head the situations would never have happened in the first place. Your Tactical advantage is in being prepared. You determine where you go, when you go, how you go.

You can’t pull (legally) a concealed weapon until a threat is posed to you. So suddenly, everyone becomes a possible threat whose intent you must determine.

You make this sound like a bad thing. It is not. It is called situational awareness and it is something everyone, armed or unarmed should practice every minute of every day. To not do so leads to that victim thingy, and that IS a bad thing

Actually, you can't pull a gun on anyone unless your life is in jeopardy, which you will have to prove in court. Whether they are aware of it or not, most people do practice situational awareness. However, this is not the same as an armed person making a threat assessment and determining whether to draw and shoot.

WRONG. You can not shoot unless you feel your life or well being (or that of others) is threatened. And I thank GOD I don't live where you apparently do. In Michigan I am innocent til proven guilty. Most CPL carriers who defend themselves here are no billed pretty readily. And it is two completely different things to be charged and to be convicted. Judged by 12 trumps carried by 6 in my book.

I don’t know stats, but my guess is street crime is more likely to come at you in numbers of individuals vs. just one these days.

I doubt the accuracy of this statement. Even if true firearms are the great equalizer.

I don't doubt the accuracy at all. A weapon is only "the great equalizer" if it's in your hand before the altercation occurs.

WRONG again. There are multitudes of cases where the mere fact that the victim was armed defused the situation.

GUN + Potential Victim + Resolve = Bad day for your typical street thug.

And even if a lone criminal comes out of the shadows, weapon pointed, you are immediately at a critical disadvantage. You can try the old “Your shoe is untied…” and go for yours but you better be supremely confident and fast.

Back to situational awareness. If a criminal "comes out of the shadows at you" you have failed SA101.

Forget the shadows. Make improper eye contact with a seasoned street thug in the middle of the day, and he'll thump you in the head while a dozen people watch. These type people have experienced a multitude of violent engagements, and many won't rattle even if you pull a gun on them. These people also make assessments, use "situational awareness", have techniques designed to neutralize or paralyze, and know what it takes to maintain their tactical advantage. You can pass SA101 and still get the crap kicked out of you.

Sure you can. And you can get hit by lightning, or run over by a rampaging elephant. The fact is criminals are not stupid. They pick easy targets. The well dressed yuppie that refuses eye contact and cowers away from him is an IDEAL target. A person that makes eye contact and that is obviously aware of the situation and that may be armed, is not.

You may want to ignore the nut job that goes off with eye contact. Go for it. I perfer to keep an eye on him and be prepared for what ever craziness he mat decide to pull.

It has also been proven that people with minimal training can actually draw and fire at a target quicker than an assailant can pull the trigger...

Cite the study.

Not BS at all. The "El Presidente" shooting drill is based on a real happening where a mexican presidental body guard drew his weapon and shot and killed not one or two, but SIX armed men advancing on his protectee. At the beginning of the incident his weapon was holstered and the attackers had weapons out and trained on their targets (the president and his body guards).

Several years ago a NYC undercover officer shot and killed two people in a car he and they were sitting in. Both assailants (oddly enough other NYC cops, apparently dirty ones) were found with their weapons in their hands. The officer was almost charged with murder, because the police and DA, like you, did not believe that he could draw and fire faster than the other two officers could simply pull their triggers. He later proved repeatedly that he could.

The simple fact is this. It takes longer for someone to percieve a threat, make the decision to fire and then pull the trigger, than it takes a person that has decided to fire to draw a weapon and fire. It takes practice, but you do not need to be some super Pistolero to do it.

[OT...Compact Pistols]

Extremely difficult topic to give advice upon simply because I believe it involves one’s abilities, both mental and physical, more so than a legal right.

In which case you would be wrong. The feeblest individual has the right to defend themselves. As does a 250Lb professional football player. I will agree that individuals that chose to carry take on a responsibility to train and prepare themselves. It is a right that carries with it huge responsibilities.

I too choose not to carry,

Why?

but come down firmly on the side of ownership and concealed carry for those that prove their ability to do so. It’s such a huge responsibility however, one I can only equate with bringing a child into this world, oddly enough. If you doubt your will, even the slightest bit, it’s my opinion you have no business carrying a weapon.

The first step to becoming a victim is to resolve to be one. The first step to STOP being a victim to to resolve to STOP being one, and take steps to ward that goal

The shear number of possible scenarios, anyone of which could leave you in legal jeopardy let alone physical, are staggering.

It sounds contrite, but better judged by 12 than carried by 6

Basically, it comes down to the element of surprise, which is almost always with the criminals.

Only if YOU let it be that way

You can’t pull (legally) a concealed weapon until a threat is posed to you. So suddenly, everyone becomes a possible threat whose intent you must determine.

You make this sound like a bad thing. It is not. It is called situational awareness and it is something everyone, armed or unarmed should practice every minute of every day. To not do so leads to that victim thingy, and that IS a bad thing

I don’t know stats, but my guess is street crime is more likely to come at you in numbers of individuals vs. just one these days.

I doubt the accuracy of this statement. Even if true firearms are the great equalizer.

And even if a lone criminal comes out of the shadows, weapon pointed, you are immediately at a critical disadvantage. You can try the old “Your shoe is untied…” and go for yours but you better be supremely confident and fast.

Back to situational awareness. If a criminal "comes out of the shadows at you" you have failed SA101. It has also been proven that people with minimal training can actually draw and fire at a target quicker than an assailant can pull the trigger. Sounds counter intuitive, but has been shown to be true over and over again

My thinking is, most criminals want something from you other than your life, which they can take but can’t have, so it has no value. Personally, I’m more than happy to give up whatever it is they want, compliment their matching hoodie and kicks, and let them be on their way. My wallet, watch, car… none of those things are worth taking a life over, which I’d have to live with for the rest of my life.

When a criminal introduces violence or the threat of violence into a situation your life is threaten. Period. You have chosen to place your life in the hands of a criminal, to let the criminal decide if you live or die. By refusing to defend yourself you have abducated the right to determine your own fate, and have handed that decision over your assaulter. I simply can not overstate what a poor choice I believe this is.

As for all this talk of shooting through automobile glass (from the inside out I assume unless you’re an assassin), letting loose a hot .38 , 9 or God forbid a .357 from inside a vehicle with no hearing protection… you might as well box up your gear and post it in the Garage cuz you’ll be deaf as a stone.

Let's see here...DEAF or DEAD. Only one letter difference. Your choice I guess.

If a CC weapon is in your future, as stated previously, visit a dealer with a range and try a wide variety of weapons for fit, then heat a few up to see what naturally suits you. IMHO, don’t get hung up in the Caliber War. No one I know would volunteer to catch a .22 in the chest at 50 yds. let alone five feet. Modern self-defense ammo is nasty stuff designed to ruin someone’s day. 9mm is immensely popular because of it’s price and increased round capacity given similar frame sizes. Price should be NO OBJECT. If the one you feel most comfortable with is the most expensive, BUY IT. Another $xxx means nothing when it comes down to your life. My only other suggestion here would be not to acquire other brands/models with different manuals of arms as it can lead to hesitation when you can least afford it.

Any gun is better than no gun. But...the purpose of a firearm is to end a confrontation. They do this by effectively incapacitating the target. Larger calibers have proven over and over and over and over again that they are better at incapacitating targets than smaller calibers. Why ? because bigger holes lead to greater and quicker blood loss causing a loss in blood pressure resulting in loss of consciousness. Larger calibers tend to penetrate better and do more damage to the tissure around the bullets path. Carry a .22 if that is all you can handle, but few adults fall into that catagory. I personally have watched a 4'11" 97 lb female hit bullseye after bullseye with full bore .45 loads.

Post-purchase, lots of practice of course as mentioned but also with its limitations, as mentioned. The thing about honest-to-God training, my impression is a very small # of gun owners actually go through with it. It’s expensive, a little over-the-top for most and not something you do just once like a drivers license test. What I didn’t see quickly looking over this thread is the need to know your State and Local gun laws, inside and out. In your home the balance beam leans in your favor. Outside your home, it can be argued the beam leans in favor of the criminal. KNOW YOUR RIGHTS.

Practice, practice and practice some more. It's that pesky responsibility thing again. Formal training is nice and a certain plus to your abilities. Know the law and your Rights and how they pertain to you in EVERY situation.

[OT...Compact Pistols]

Taurus has come a long way in the last 30 years. Not quite up to S&W standards IMHO, but darn close.

With your purchases all you need to do is Practice. And then practice, practice and practice some more. With the shot gun too. Shotties are nice, but they are not magic. You need to aim it just like every other weapon. Both you and your wife need to shoot it.

[OT...Compact Pistols]

I can get $250 trade in on the P89, which isnt bad since it is 10 years old and I paid $300 new.

I would suspect that you could get a LOT more if you sold it privately. Just check with your local and Federal laws to see how to go about it. Remember, what they offer you in trade only means they are going to sell it for more...

I wouldn't bet the farm on that. The dealer will ask more, and has the ability to sit on it for months or even years to turn a few bucks profit.

Rightly or wrongly (wrongly in my opinion) Rugers semis are just not that popular. The boards I frequent routinely have pretty much any Ruger semi in the $300-350 range and they sit long enough to make me sure that they are selling for less. Ones priced in the $250-275 range seem to go pretty quick.

Unless $25 is enough to break a $300 deal for you, I'd take it and not look back...

[OT...Compact Pistols]

"IMHO the S&W airweight 357 mag titanuim/scandium frame 5 shot revolver is the ticket."

Agreed. I'm strictly a 1911 shooter, but if I were to carry, it would be a S&W J frame.

"There is no such thing as a magic bullet."

Assuming you know how to hit what you're aiming at, a single round of hardball is all you need.

"Aim small, miss small." How many military, police and private defense instructors recommend shooting for the head, especially one that is moving?

J frame S&Ws are fine choices. My brother carries an S&W 340PD. Very light, accurate if you do your part. Manual of arms is simplicity itself. J frames (as a whole) are the gun I recommend to beginners for a carry firearm. 357s are stout in them, especially in M&Ps and PDs or other airweight frames.

I also like 1911s. An excellant fighting sidearm. Carried one for years. However I was seduced by the dark side and transisitioned to the Glocks shortly after they hit the market in .45ACP. Never really got used to the grip and switched to the XD .45 a while ago. Just changed to one with a thumb safety a few weeks ago. Carries very well, almost like a 1911.

Been shooting the heck out of my CZ52 lately. 7.62 Tok is dirt cheap in comparision to most anything else right now. Worth the price of one to be able to get the range time with a higher caliber weapon. (vice .22)

Magic bullet -vs- hitting what you shoot at. I am glad some are confident in their ability to hit their target. Unfortunately stats do not back up that arguement. Typical gun fights involving professionals show that MOST rounds fired fail to hit the mark. And that most hits are not fight stoppers. When I was younger few if any agencies advocated head shots as openning targets. Generally to CBM was the rule. That may have changed in the last few years. if so it is a change I for one would not support.

[Jury duty over the past 2+ weeks]

Hey dave,

Have asked the same question anout the felony murder charge on MGO. Found this seaching for a news article on the trial.

Mike