Dsrtjeeper
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Posts posted by Dsrtjeeper
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Hi folks. I came across a good deal and am tempted to grab these. They would be efficient enough for SET amps and tall/thin speakers tend to image very well. I'm not familiar with these new tweeters, but am hoping that they aren't too in your face. My basic worry is three woofers per speaker in my 12'x10' room may be overwhelming. I value your opinions so fire away!
Thanks.
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I responded to that ad but there are no numbers or tags on the speakers. B&W wouldn't do that. He is down to $70.00 on them.
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I guess if a big name company like Naim can do it; they can too. Anyway to make more money. Still can't complain at the price of this unit.
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LOL! I knew you were going to say Dan Mazza! That's where I learned to sit against the back wall and pull the speakers into the room. I purchased my first tube amp there back when they opened in Tempe; AZ.
Small world, bro. When I was there he just moved from somewhere, he led me to believe it was from a bigger place in Phoenix but it could have been Tempe. His new place is pretty small and packed. I listened to a Leben amp (EL84 I believe) and I think Proac speakers, but I could be wrong. Sounded real nice. Dan was extremeny acommodating knowing that I was from out of town and just joy riding. He's got some good stories about the old days let me tell ya'. Sold a few thousand tubes to Eva Ann Manley after meeting her in a bar, stuff like that. A memorable visit for sure. I kept looking for something I could use so I could at least do some business; cables, tubes, something, but left with only a few CDs.
He had a bigger place in Tempe close to ASU. I've known Dan for years. He worked for Macintosh at some point. Evanna Manley use to come in town quite often. Did he tell you how Evanna designed the Stingray amp on a napkin at a bar?
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What do we know about the SACD/Hybrid versions of Miles Davis disks?
- How is the sound quality compared to the previous CD and Lp versions?
- Why have some gone off the market so soon? I'm just now getting a SACD player, and Kind of Blue is gone!
I have "Kind Of Blue" in SACD and if anything it's a bit more analog sounding. Just like redbook cd's; SACD has good and bad recordings and many listeners were put off by spending more money for an unimproved recording. The newer redbook players these days are so good that I'm content listening to them. Let us know how the OPPO sounds.
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What is the name of the shop? I'm in Glendale just outside of Phoenix to the north. I remember reading the Audio Physics setup years ago. There was another setup procedure called WASP I believe. I can't remember who wrote it but you basically walked around the room clapping and talking while someone sat and listened in the listening position. That always worked for me as well and the speakers were always out into the room. http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html
Arizona HiFi @ http://www.tubeaudio.com/ Dan Mazza is the owner, great guy with a nice shop.
10 W Camelback Rd., Phoenix, AZ 85013
(602) 264-4434 (264-HIFI)The WASP setup is Wilson Audio Setup Procedure. An audio friend of mine recently got Wilson Watt / Puppy 8 and said they came in and did that when they set up his speakers. They ended up maybe 1' between the wall and the back of the speaker, which probably put the speaker faces 3' or so into what was probably a 18' deep room. So not 1/3 for sure. I really wanted to pull the speakers into the room because I thought the soundstage was shallow/compressed against the wall. But they did sound mighty fine.
LOL! I knew you were going to say Dan Mazza! That's where I learned to sit against the back wall and pull the speakers into the room. I purchased my first tube amp there back when they opened in Tempe; AZ.
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You really need fully horn loaded (Khorn, La Scala, Belle) if you want that small an amp to work. Also depends on the synergy between the speaker/crossover and the amp. My crossovers are constant impedance, which tube amps really like.I have found that my wimpy 3 watts/channel amp is under powered. Time for a larger tube amp.
My LaScalas have their best imaging when I have them about four feet from the back wall, too. Width of the sound stage is no different, but the depth is better. I just can do it right now due to other room layout considerations. Glad you got it worked out. Let us know how it goes with your journey for a larger amp.I pulled the speakers 4ft into the room with my seat against the back wall. What a revelation!
Bruce
That's what I figured after I became more familiar with SET and horns. The Quartets are not quite efficient enough and I'm sure the x-overs aren't helping. Who built your x-overs? I bet those La Scalas sound beautiful.
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New development. At the advise of one member; I pulled the speakers 4ft into the room with my seat against the back wall. What a revelation! This is basically how my room has been set up with most every system in there. It works even with the passive radiator. Bass has slam now and is more even across the lower octaves. I can easily live with this positioning. I just need to tweak the toe in and I should be good. I have found that my wimpy 3 watts/channel amp is under powered. Time for a larger tube amp. This has been one learning experience but I have everyone here to thank for their help.
The way this was explained to me by the owner of the shop I mentioned is that the signifigance of the 4' is that it is 1/3 into the room. He said something about wavelengths, room nodes...I wasn't really paying attention because I didn't think it made sense since it went against what I believed (specifically to put your head right against the back wall). I later found that this is the Audio Physics method:
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/audiophysic.html
Good luck finding an amp. Way too many options. What's your budget?
btw: That shop is in Phoenix area - Near you?
What is the name of the shop? I'm in Glendale just outside of Phoenix to the north. I remember reading the Audio Physics setup years ago. There was another setup procedure called WASP I believe. I can't remember who wrote it but you basically walked around the room clapping and talking while someone sat and listened in the listening position. That always worked for me as well and the speakers were always out into the room. http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html
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New development. At the advise of one member; I pulled the speakers 4ft into the room with my seat against the back wall. What a revelation! This is basically how my room has been set up with most every system in there. It works even with the passive radiator. Bass has slam now and is more even across the lower octaves. I can easily live with this positioning. I just need to tweak the toe in and I should be good. I have found that my wimpy 3 watts/channel amp is under powered. Time for a larger tube amp. This has been one learning experience but I have everyone here to thank for their help.
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Wht are some Fortes plywood? On the Klipsch site they are listed as so. Just curious.
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I'm a new Quartet owner and as I get them positioned; I'm really liking them. I have a question for all the Quartet owners....Are your pair made of particle board like mine? I was surprised to see this as they are from the Heritage line known for plywood construction.
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Glad to hear things are sounding better. I would have gotten around to toe-in and sound treatment eventually. In my current room, with KHorns, I have eliminated the treatments, but it is an odd shape and I have had good luck. In the last room, placing HF absorbing panels behind and at the first reflection point really cleaned up the vocals and strings without losing anything noticeable. the best thing now would be to shift everything 6" to the left or right, realizing that the speakers an chair will be off-center. That may or may not work for you, and if you can't shift the front speakers, you could adjust toe-in on the two a little off from each other and then just scoot your listening position about 6"-12" off center. This should improve your bass performance even more, but it will be a little finicky to get the toe in just right, and unfortunately you don't have that much room to play with.
Thanks for your help! Could you run my current measurements through and see what you get on your software? Center of woofer to front wall is 25". Center to side walls is 30". My ears are 27" from back wall.
Thanks!
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The 244s are not hemholtz. They are several inches thich with a space between the wall and back when mounted. I never took out just the 244s or just the corner traps to check the effect separately. GIK was very helpful with looking at drawings and pics and suggesting what to by and where to put the stuff. I didn't buy everything they suggested so I may go back and buy 2 more corner traps. 30-day money back I believe.
I might have to check into that. Nothing like good customer support.
Thanks!
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Things are looking better! Moved my listening position in one foot where my ears are 27" from back wall. I then stood diffusive panels in the two front corners. Absorbing panels were placed at the first reflection point behind each speaker. I also changed out the power cord. These changes netted more detail; tighter bass and ambience. The sound is more controlled and refined. The mids are a bit harsh at this point and I'm looking to solutions.
Thanks for all the help!
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I have 1 corner trap in each corner behind the speakers and 2 of the 244 panels hanging on the wall behind me. They made a big difference. Upper bass is more defined and doesn't sound like it's coming from anywhere/everywhere, and low bass is musical and not one note. The problem I had before GIK was that the bass was muddying up the midrange.The positioning you describe is how I normally listen. With the Klipsch; soundstaging falls apart and the bass drops off too much without the passive near a room boundary. This is just my experience. My local audio dealer has all five of his demo rooms set up with the listening chair against the back wall and the speakers pulled out into the room. The sound is always so captivating and not bass heavy like one would assume. This positioning provides uncanny realism and a deep and wide soundstage floating in air. I'm curious; what are GIK products?
Thanks!
I just checked out their products and they are well priced. I can't believe how thin their 244 panels are for bass traps. Are they Hemholz Resonator design?
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My room is 12' x 13', so I've had the same issues with multiple speakers that you're having now.
If the positioning Klipsch Geek suggested didn't help, try what I did:
Move your seat against the back wall and move your speakers 1/3 into the room (sounds like 4' in your case). I was recently out of town visiting a shop and the owner suggested this. Went against what I believed at the time so I didn't try it for months until I got curious one day. It worked great for me.
It may not be possible for you to leave it this way, but it may give you a clue to what's going on.My speakers are 4' into the room and about 8' apart (I forget exactly) and I finally have pretty good sound in there. I also have GIK products, the corner bass traps help a lot.
The positioning you describe is how I normally listen. With the Klipsch; soundstaging falls apart and the bass drops off too much without the passive near a room boundary. This is just my experience. My local audio dealer has all five of his demo rooms set up with the listening chair against the back wall and the speakers pulled out into the room. The sound is always so captivating and not bass heavy like one would assume. This positioning provides uncanny realism and a deep and wide soundstage floating in air. I'm curious; what are GIK products?
Thanks!
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Excellent!
Thinking of putting Forte speakers at our desk. I am listening on a 50 watt amp, a thinking if can get the speakers setup, will see if the bass is there.They should match. Room is about same size as my music room...to be. They could be raised slightly, as long as checking it out.
Here I can have fun with the positioning. Room size Interesting conversation.
Congrats
I'm told that the Fortes have a bit more bass slam as the main woofer and passive are larger. Both the Quartet and Forte have the same mids and tweeters. Good luck with your room as these Klipsch speakers seem to be a whole different animal.
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Moved the speakers back one foot and still good if not better. Toed them in 2". I think the ticket was getting them closer together and away from the side walls.
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You've been an "Audiophile" for 30 years, you've been in the same room for almost 20 years and you haven't treated the room?
Here is a Link to Ethan Winer's Site-----> CLICK HERE
I hope this helps,
Dennie
I never said my room isn't treated. I use Room Tunes wall and corner treatment as well as Echo Tune diffusors and absorbing panels. I use the treatments sparingly as I dislike a dead room. As I stated before; I haven't had such bad bass issues to ever warrant the use of bass traps.
My Bad! Sorry about the assumption, but it wasn't mentioned or I missed it.
I'm glad you are making progress.
Dennie
No problem. I have my fingers crossed.!
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I have room-modeling software I use when I perform an HAA calibration on audio systems, but it really is just a "best guess". I then use a RTA to measure and dial-in placement. Try it out, and let us know how it sounds. Also, if you want to get me exact dimensions and seating placement, down to the half-foot, and I can play around a bit more in it if you want?
I wondered if you had software. I've been listening for over an hour after placing the speakers where you specified. The bass is better than ever now with no boom. The downside is that the highs and mids seem more efficient than the woofers. This could be my amp or the inefficient x-overs. Still not quite getting the bass slam that I'm use to. I tried sitting a foot from the back wall and the bass is still nice with a wider sound stage. Also; with the speakers in your suggested position; vocals aren't as fleshed out. They are 2 dimensional. As far as actual measurements; the room is a true 12'x10'x8' room. I sit on a thick futon and the equipment stand is between the speakers against the front wall. I haven't tried toeing the speakers in yet as they are so close together.
Thanks for your help!
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You've been an "Audiophile" for 30 years, you've been in the same room for almost 20 years and you haven't treated the room?
Here is a Link to Ethan Winer's Site-----> CLICK HERE
I hope this helps,
Dennie
I never said my room isn't treated. I use Room Tunes wall and corner treatment as well as Echo Tune diffusors and absorbing panels. I use the treatments sparingly as I dislike a dead room. As I stated before; I haven't had such bad bass issues to ever warrant the use of bass traps.
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So, you may have been in that room for 20 years, but every speaker is a bit different.I hate to say this, but being against a wall is never a good thing in a square or rectangular room. At best, you are missing some bass and enhancing some other. In a square room, being centered is also very bad for bass modes and nulls. Your best option based on some very basic seating models would be to sit 7ft from your front wall, with your chair off to the side by 2ft (though even 1 ft would be better than dead center. I would also suggest having the front center of the woofer placed 2.5 ft from the side walls and 3ft from back wall. With these room dimensions that may be difficult when trying to get good sound and have the room look right. Modeling for the room geometry may be difficult, but ultimately if you can find someone who has a spectrum analyzer and knows how to tweak a parametric EQ you might be able to tune some of the rooms bass response. Another solution worth playing with would be a complementary subwoofer with the correct placement, but now the models get much more complex and it is time for real world measurements.
I apologize if I mislead you. I don't sit against the back wall. My head is 3' into the room. I will try that speaker placement that you mentioned. I did notice that when I pulled the speakers into the room, the bass was almost non-existent. The boominess diminished greatly. I'm really hating that passive woofer. Almost every speaker I've had in that room sits in the same spot with excellent results. I have tape on the floor right where I have placed so many pair.
Thanks!
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First of all; thanks for all the great responses!
I'd like to reiterate that I have been listening in this room since '93 with so many different speakers that it makes my head spin. I have always been able to deal with room resonances in all cases. The speakers sit on the 10' wall out of necessity and I sit on the opposite 10' wall. The ceiling is 8'. I currently have the speakers right in the corners with the drivers toed in facing me. Bass definition is best here so far but still ill defined compared to the speakers I'm use to. Bass guitar is flabby and boomy. The snap of a drum stick on the skins is somewhat dull and missing that hard hit. My SS amp doesn't improve things at 150 watts/channel either. I moved the speakers into the family room and now they rock! The bass isn't the fastest that I've heard but it's as if the speakers need to breathe. I love the horns but the bass is just not made for my room. The only other choice I can think of is to try Heresy's and a sub and I'm not fond of that idea. Up until now; I always enjoyed the intimacy of my small room. I'm at a loss here.
Just a side note: My family is complaining about the boominess when they are trying to watch TV in the family room 30' away.
RF-83's in my small room?
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
The deal fell through. Somebody jumped on them first. Oh well.
Thanks guys!