robc1976
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Posts posted by robc1976
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27 minutes ago, dtel said:
Both are, rooms like this are what make people wish they had a dedicated room, It does for me.
Very nice.
I just got lighting installed (all battery, no wires) and will post better pics
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29 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:
Nice room!
I appreciate that
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1 hour ago, ellisr63 said:
Looks Great! Did you make all the panels functional or did you do like I did, and make so e cosmetic? The panels IMO made a bigger difference than buying new amps would.
Sent from my SM-T550 using Tapatalk
All panels are placed at reflection points. All functional, cosmetics came last. Agree 100% that panels make the biggest difference
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22 minutes ago, Ian said:
I don't have Audyssey on my current pre/pro, but found it to work reasonably well in other units I've had. The Onkyo version I have now has been criticized but actually works fairly well in an untreated room. I have spent a good deal of time/money treating my room now and according to the measurements with my RTA, I get flatter response in most frequencies with it turned off as opposed to turned on, so I have disabled it.
The most critical frequencies for equalization are below 200Hz and the Anti-Mode 8033 I have does an amazing job there and is well worth the fairly reasonable cost.
Exactly my feeling as well, I have a highly treated room and have experienced the same.
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Here is mine
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5 minutes ago, Kevin S said:
Anything such as the versions of Audyssey that are included in AVR's, that has been found so hard to use successfully by it's primary customer base and that has spawned volumes of pages with "tweaks" to it's implementation in order to "trick" it into successfully doing what it was designed to do, is a failure in my opinion.
100% agree
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2 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:
Im in the same boat. I like it a lot and get improvement at all positions. Many arent into complicated setup though and I wanted to explain my view in still getting something good from it. i dont think the suggestions are different just that some peoples room dont sound good at the outside seats and the averaging makes every spot bad.
I prefer it off with some tweaks, I have a dedicated theater. Just added a row of seats and 8 more panels to the room and it sounds insane. I am not saying it sounds bad with it on, but more dynamic and crisp, not muffled with it off. It took me 6 years to come to this conclusion though lol!
I do like its delay/distance settings
I do like its sub distance measurements
I do not like the curves it gives you but understand why it does.
This is a large room
Just added another row of seats
6 more panels on the ceiling
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2 hours ago, garyrc said:
What happens when you use Audyssey + tone controls? I don't mean the virtual sliders, which usually can't be used with Audyssey, but the true tone controls which can only be used with DEQ off. In my room, starting with something that is comparatively flat (Audyssey), then tweaking with the true tone controls, to manipulate a smooth, rather than a kinky, curve works well. In fact, it works better than the extremely versatile tone controls I used to have on my old Luxman (a choice of three turnover points for each tone control, plus a low boost or cut switch at 70 Hz or 140 Hz)Yep, those are the tone controls I am referring to.
I have mine set at +2Db bass & -1db treble and this sounds amazing. Tried multiple other settings but this seems to be sweet spot for my room.
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32 minutes ago, garyrc said:
- Reflections: absorbers, diffusers, book shelves with open ends with diffusing pottery and absorbing books, area rugs, thick velour curtains, etc.
- Standing waves: (tuned) bass traps, after a room mode analysis.
- Audyssey may help some with both.
100% correct, treating my room made the biggest difference. I just don't like what audyysey does to my sound anymore. It sounded good, but much better off and tweaks with tone controls.
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I ordered a Mic, going to get measurements Abe and go from there.
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17 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:
I am a big fan of Audyssey. And I think for a lot of people that don't like it, it's because it is not intended for that particular use!
In general, music is EQ'd to one position, or a very small area, and is optimized to sound great there. There is often minimal treatment in a music listening area...just enough to reduce early reflections that reach the listener. There is no reference standard, there is no actual "setup" for bass, it is what a specific user likes and sets up for himself.
In contrast, when you think of most movie theaters, they are very damped, with lost of sound absorption everywhere. There is a reference standard. There is a starting point that all systems are supposed to begin from, when building a reference theater.
So if you ponder that, you'll realize that what so many people have been doing is beating their heads against the wall trying to figure out why their music does not sound awesome in their -- home theater calibrated setup!
Here's a question posed to Dennis Erskine which I think explains perfectly the dilemma and points the way towards happiness:
Q: The different requirements for 2 channel and multi channel is interesting. So obviously there is no way to make a room work as well for both uses as it would for each task specifically. However what should be the general guidelines for a room that would be used for both 2 and multi channel - so as to do the least damage to either format?
A. Compromise between the two playback scenarios is not a good option. Effectively you're saying you're (a) willing to spend a bunch of money and (b) happy to make the room sound poorly in either case.
If you have a good surround processor and a well set up multi-channel room, play your 2 channel recordings in multi-channel mode...a better result. I can assure you a good surround processor will do a whole bunch better job of creating the spaciousness than your room can accomplish.Now, if you really absorb what he is saying there, it should be a relief to most people -- you CANNOT build a setup that is incredible for both music and home theater at the same time. Maybe you like yours that much (I may like mine), but in reality what you do to make a "great" theater is different than what is done to make a great music listening area. And one of the foremost experts in design is saying there, stop trying. You're killing yourself trying to create the impossible.
So when Chris A says what he says, I believe him. I truly believe he has tried it 100x and knows what it can and cannot do. And he knows that it just cannot make his room sound great for music and for theater! And as someone that from what I've seen, absolutely cherishes his music experience, he has smartly gone the route of creating the sound environment that works best for his situation. I would not expect Chris to like Audyssey in that regard.
I have two theaters....one setup for movies, highly damped/treated room, Audyssey used, hundreds of hours spent on placement setup and correction. And the other theater has no treatment, has no Audyssey, and has a few dozen hours spent on placement and setup.
Both theaters can play music and movies "well". But there is no doubt in my mind that one theater sounds more alive and exciting for 2-channel music, and the other sounds amazing for home theater.
And...I think that is how it was meant to be! Audyssey is NOT designed for a music environment...it is calibrating a system....well it can't possibly calibrate a system to each individual's music tastes -- it has no idea what they are. But it can correct a space defined by the border of the measurements taken, and correct as best it can to reference.
Once I absorbed what Dennis was saying -- stop trying to make your room perfect for music and movies -- it was a lot more relaxing and clear to me dealing with it all. Don't try and make your room perfect for both. Make it great for one or the other, or if you use one room for both, create your own compromise -- as Chris has done.
I agree with most of this, mine is for theater only, rarely any music. Audyssey does sound good...but it can be much better. I am like you, 100's of hours of tweaking
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56 minutes ago, Chris A said:
That's a preamp/processor issue common to Audyssey and any other room correction and/or loudspeaker correction systems. If Audyssey has 11 channels correction, then the pre/pro running Audyssey has that many channels of equalization. You don't have to use Audyssey firmware, unless the pre/pro and AVR manufacturer has made it such that you must use Audyssey. Mine doesn't.
There are many ways to get 11+ channels of equalization, digital delay adjustment, and individual channel gains, but typically this capability is found in pre/pros and AVRs. This isn't really a room correction firmware/software issue.
If it were me, I'd use an AVP having XLR outputs and active crossovers totaling at least the number of channels output, and use good external amplifiers of high fidelity and lower cost with middling levels of power output (assuming high efficiency loudspeakers like many of the Klipsch line such as Heritage, etc.). I'd at least bi-amp the fronts and mono-amp the surround and elevation channels. Then the system would be capable and flexible to do what is needed to dial everything in for my needs. YMMV.
Chris
I have a 4311ci and (2) emotiva XPA-5's the EMO gear does have xlr outputs balanced/not balanced ect.
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8 minutes ago, Chris A said:
Understand that part of the story here is the "bait-and-switch" of the Audyssey firmware version that is distributed with AVPs/AVRs and the upgraded "Pro" version costing in the neighborhood of a good active digital crossover....for firmware...that has effectively zero distribution costs: the only costs to the company are development/coding, marketing, and a monthly or yearly server fee (which is infinitesimally small). That's an expensive product for customers.
REW actually doesn't care how many channels you have. It always checks channels one at a time. (Audyssey does the same thing.) If you find yourself hearing two channels playing while doing REW upsweeps, then you've got a problem. If you've got 24 channels, REW does them one at a time...no problem.
Chris
Okay I must not be understanding this lol
You measure all speakers with rew, but how do you get that curve to the speakers? Wouldn't I need a Equaliser for each channel to implement it?
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6 hours ago, garyrc said:
I love what Audyssey does for my system. I use Audyssey Flat (not Audyssey Reference) with no DEQ, which I abhor, in a room treated with diffusion and absorption. I boost the bass about 6 dB or less, after calibration. In my room, Audyssey (Flat) 1) increases clarity and detail 2) doesn't affect dynamics (which are considerable) 3) removes peaks centered at 110 Hz, 160 Hz, 550 Hz, 8K Hz, and eliminates dips successfully at 350 Hz, and from about 12K Hz through about 16K Hz.
Rob, have you tried Audyssey Flat, rather than Audyssey Reference? Audyssey now recommends a somewhat tighter mic pattern than it once did, particularly if you are optimizing one or two seats, rather than many. Audyssey pro may be less necessary now with XT32 and the new app, if it will work with your AVR/pre-pro.
Exactly what I have done, I use audyssey flat, no DEQ turn sub up +6Db. I have done over 200 calibrations at least, have a $500 mic stand. I even have a screw in rear wall so I can attach a tape measure to go get Mic exatly where my ears are. I then put laser on center channel exactly in middle of tweeter and positing mic so laser is on mic.
When doing calibration I turn off TV, HVAC, lights ect. No noise what so ever. My positions as of now are 2ft apart in the following since I have 3 seats, but adding another row this week
MLP
2nd seat
3rd seat
Then move mic in front of those 3 spots 18"
Then 2 measurements 35% in for surrounds in rear.
Last night I turned it all off and went into tone settings and set the following
Bass +2db
Treble -1db
It sounds world's better, not even in.same league. I heard detail in "tron" that I have never heard, the bass was much tighter. 5 people said with it on the system seemed muffled, all preferred off and I have to agree.
Does it sound good with audyssey flat? It certainly does, can it sound better....god yes!
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4 hours ago, Chris A said:
In general, the experience that I've had with Audyssey is that the company started out years ago with grand statements and "one size fits all" approaches, using far too many microphone measurement positions to make up for inadequate algorithms to take care of all situations. Over time, I've seen them retract those broad statements and recommend much more conservative techniques. This is a clue as to how their real life experiences have informed their customer relations.
Einstein once said that everything should be made as simple as possible--but no simpler. I think that Audyssey (the company) tried to make things more simple than they actually are. The basic issues applying to separating loudspeaker issues (including changes in coverage angles vs. frequency) from room acoustics issues, and loudspeaker placement issues within the room are not adequately addressed within Audyssey. I believe that what they're doing is oversimplifying the total problem space in hopes of getting it "good enough for enough HT rooms out there to be successful" without actually confessing that they are operating without safety nets. Audyssey still tries to hide the real complexity from the users, but I find that the more knowledge you have about these issues...and having to guess what Audyssey is actually doing (which is an unforgivable sin on their part, IMO)...the better the results.
In my room with my 5.2 setup and Jubilees, Audyssey MultiEQ XT performs truly horribly. I really can't convey just how awful the EQ results are after all that microphone moving and waiting around. It has never worked well enough for me to listen more than a few seconds before turning the resulting EQ off. Horrible results. I've tried every permutation and combination in the book to get better results. Nothing works.
However, I've learned which piece of the Audyssey process that's useful and turn off everything else: setting channel delays works fairly well. I've even found that Audyssey's setting of channel gains (loudness of each channel) is actually more accurately done using a hand-held SPL meter at the listening position(s) and continuous pink noise output. Apparently nothing else in the Audyssey stable of parlor tricks seem to work at all in my room.
By way of contrast, REW (freeware) works extremely well. REW shows me what is actually happening, allowing me to separate the issues into separate tasks that actually are solvable--taken individually.
Chris
100% agree with this, I love rew but finding a 11 channel pre-amp is hard. I think I have no choice but to us audyssey pro since that will plug directly into my Denon 4311ci. I found a audyssey pro for $380.00.
I will also use rew to see what's going on in room ect but use audyssey pro for the curves. I don't think REW is made for 11 channel systems as most pre-amps I have found are 7-8 channels.
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7 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:
Rob you have a great setup. I especially like that you treated the room.
I'm wondering if you have a measurement microphone and use REW?
The issues you describe I think can be quantified and fixed/improved really easily, but requires some measurements.
Looking into REW, so rew just measures room, finds acoustic issues ect, still need audyssey pro to really calibrate it? Regular audyssey of course wont cut it.
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1 hour ago, Kevin S said:
I prefer my Heresy 3's without Audyssey. They seem to lose some dynamics with it on. I also had to move the subwoofer trims up a bit after turning it off.
EXACTLY! with audyssey the sound seems to loose dynsmics, like its being clipped or toned down. Subs have to be trimmed up since you loose that boost. You will also loose surround volume to.
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1 hour ago, Frzninvt said:
Why would you trust an algorithm and not your ears?
I have to agree
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1 hour ago, Chris A said:
Yes!
Glad I am not the only one
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1 hour ago, derrickdj1 said:
This might be the problem? Overly treated rooms sound dead or blunt. As humans we normally live with some reverb for things to sound natural. I would be nice to see how the FR and room measure.
Its not crazy treated, its the 1st refections on sidewalls, reflections on ceilings, reflections on front wall. Rear wall if course has absorbtion and diffusion. Corners fully treated with tri-trap bass traps. Its treated but not overly treated, each panel id needed. I agree 100% with you that a lot of people just put panels everywhere and they have a dead room.
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17 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:
Oh, I hate inane base....much prefer insane! LOL
Lol!!
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7 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:
Rob you have a great setup. I especially like that you treated the room.
I'm wondering if you have a measurement microphone and use REW?
The issues you describe I think can be quantified and fixed/improved really easily, but requires some measurements.
I have audyssey pro in the works but wondering if maybe if rew would be better....I am sure much cheaper lol
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I have used audyssey the past 6-7 years or so, I do the normal tweaks
1. Turn off DEQ
2. Boost sub (you loose boost from DEQ being turned off)
3. I usually boost center by 1-2Db, surrounds 1-2db
4. Speakers set to small
5. Crossed at 80 htz
Tone controls (deq off)
Bass = +4-5db
Treble 0db
Today I played around with some settings, I turned of audyssey NOT just DEQ (you still retain trim and distance measurements). I then used tone controls bass= +5db and treble = +3db and my setup came to life, detail like I have never heard, bass is inane. Just overall great sound.
Curious if anyone has noticed this?
Room:
1. Highly treated room, sound proof fully ect
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13 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:
Where are you located and when is the gtg???? LOL really nice job, especially the construction that must make an amazing difference.
You are chasing the last 3%, which is awesome. Don't get too distracted from how great it already is
I am located in columbia IL, its GTG just a small 64" screen lol! I just calibrated it and it sounds amazing. Only thing left is marble labs on speakers and subs may just do the subs. If I do the speakers I will put rubber barrier to prevent marring.
Room makes HUGE difference.
Lets see YOUR Home Theater:
in Home Theater
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Very nice room, I did not see pic before!? Looks great