Codyred
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Posts posted by Codyred
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Just wanted to update everyone who participated in my "RF-7II's And Krell S-300i Integrated" thread and provided me with helpful insight. I finally purchased a Krell S-300i to pair with the RF7II. It turned out to be a great purchase. I looked everywhere online for every post I could find about the integrated. I found a fellow at Audiogon who participates on several audio forums and owns the S-300i paired with the Wilson Sasha's. The Sasha is a true high end speaker with a retail price of $30k. He really liked the sound quality of this pairing and praised the S-300i. He knows high end gear and high end sound, based on the level of gear he is accustomed to. That pretty much clinched it for me. I also messaged another audiophile that owns the S-300i who characterized the S-300i as very close to having monoblocks. His description was convincing. The Krell brings the RF7 II's sound to a higher level, more than any integrated I used before. It has brought more of their transparency, clarity and much improved the bass as well. The RF7II's have become more resolving. Just for context, I have owned a number of integrateds with these speakers. I went back over old emails to put together the history. That history surprised me. Had the NAD M2, Yamaha AS2000, Harmon Kardon HK990, NAD C375BEE (still have), Anthem 225 (still have) and now the S-300i. I didn't realize there have been six of them since I bought the RF 7II's. The Krell has been a revelation. The folks in the past who wrote that similar amplifiers all sound the same just did not know. Also getting into fuses now which is a new frontier for me and they matter too and do affect the sound quality of components.
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Going to start a new thread
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I listen mostly to jazz.
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Thanks Metropolis, a Klipsch dealer I spoke to by phone also recommended the Hint 6 with the RF-7 II's
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I'm using RF 7 II's in stereo, most of the time with a subwoofer, lately trying them without the sub to see what they can do alone. In the past I've had the NAD C375bee, and while it was fuller and had pretty good bass, it was not refined enough and lacked a little in the clarity department. Used to have the Yamaha AS 2000 driving them. This was a much more refined sound . The first unit I had to return after it stopped working. It had pretty good bass heft (with a sub), though on the leaner side of the spectrum. I replaced it with another AS2000 and it didn't have as much bass impact-even with a sub as the first one. I eventually sold the AS 2000. Anyone heard the RF7II's with any of these quality integrateds and what did you think?
Vincent SV-237mkMusical Fidelity M6siYamaha A-S1100Parasound Hint 6 or HaloKrell S-300iMusical Fidelity A5Thanks -
1 hour ago, robert_kc said:
I think there’s been good discussion in this thread. I’ll be interested in hearing the OP’s results if he tries a different amp.
FWIW, following are my thoughts.
OP: You say that you listen to “classic jazz from the 50's”. It seems to me that this is one of the least demanding music genres for a hi-fi system to recreate.
Is your goal to feel your body being assaulted by low frequencies (i.e., “kick your chest”), or recreate in your home a live performance of 1950s era jazz?
FWIW, I’ve never experienced “natural music” (i.e., classical, chamber music, jazz, big band) “kicking me in the chest”. I attend more than 20 live classical music performances each year, including large-scale orchestral music - and I’m in awe of the power of large-scale orchestral music. However, large scale orchestral music doesn’t involve “kicking me in the chest” – even though a bass drum (and six double bass) in the symphony hall can be very powerful. As a point of reference, I’ve heard live performances in a world-class symphony hall of Mahler Symphony 2, Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 (Organ Symphony), Beethoven Symphony 9, Brahms German Requiem, and many other large-scale powerful works that greatly exceed the power of a jazz quartet. I suggest that if you want to challenge your hi-fi system with powerful music, get a hi-res recording (e.g., 24bit/192kHz FLAC download) of Bach’s Toccata and Fugue in D minor and crank it up to the volume level of a live performance from a large pipe organ (e.g., the Wanamaker organ). In terms of demand on a hi-fi system, “classic jazz from the 50's” is wimpy in comparison. (No disrespect intended towards you by calling your music wimpy. 😊 )
$64k question: Do you attend live performances of the music you like? Does this form your benchmark for music reproduced via your home hi-fi system? How does your RF-7II perform in comparison to your recollection of live jazz? FWIW, this is how I think you should judge the sound from your home hi-fi system.
FYI, there are people on this forum who use Klipschorn with 3wpc SET amps to listen to jazz. RF-7II are 4dB less sensitive, so – painting in broad brush strokes - double the power required. In an average size room at sane listening volumes, I’d say that the RF-7II can deliver a realistic simulacrum of a live jazz performance with a tube amp rated at 10wpc, because there’s little dynamic range to jazz. (I don’t listen to jazz, but my RF-7II can successfully recreate big-band music with an 8wpc single-ended-pentode tube amp. For large-scale orchestral music (which has far greater dynamic range), a 30wpc tube amp works well.)
If you’re dissatisfied with the bass from RF-7II for jazz, then something seems amiss with your hi-fi system, or you have a problem with room modes (try moving your listening position backwards or forwards), or … candidly … perhaps the problem is with your expectations. (No offense intended.) In light of the fact that RF-7II are – relatively speaking - “big boy” speakers, they should provide ample acoustic power in an average size room for 1950s era jazz without worrying about a “high current” amp. My advice: get a 6L6GC based PP tube amp with tone controls, and you can enjoy natural timbre, and tailor the frequency balance to your liking.
OTOH, a subwoofer is useful for hi-res recordings of large-scale orchestral music, and pipe organ, particularly in a large room, and/or if you listen at “ear-bleed” listening volumes. And, multiple subwoofers are indicated if you want to “feel” the concussion of explosions in a Blu-ray movie “slamming against your body” - or feel the room shake during a buffalo stampede or earthquake scene in a movie.
Where do you live? Perhaps it would be useful for you to hear your music on someone else’s RF-7IIs that are “dialed in”.
Bottom line: If you’re happy with your RF-7II with a subwoofer, why not just “crank up” your sub?
Your thoughts?
P.S. In my basement system I have no problems with dynamics or deep bass, for any music.
Front, center, and left speakers are Klipsch RF-7 II. A single rear speaker is a Klipsch RF-7. Subwoofers: SVS SB16-Ultra, Klipsch R-115SW. Source: Oppo UDP-205.
I have multiple tube amps in this system. If I use a Scott 296 to drive the left and right channels, and a Fisher KX-200 (or Scott 272) to drive the center and (single) rear channel, there is dynamic range and frequency range approaching symphony hall experience. No problems with dynamics, or deep bass, for any genre of music.
Wow Robert, what a post! Thanks for taking the time! No, I don't want bass that hits me in the chest. I have attended live jazz performances before, but not lately. I simply used a comment from another owner who made that statement as an example that the RF7II's can produce significant bass. I do want to hear the bass that happen in the music. I never expect to hear hard hitting bass with the music I listen to. Mostly I'm hearing an upright acoustic bass in my music. But things with the Anthem 225 are improving. Now I'm wondering if the aftermarket caps previously installed in the amp will continue to improve the bass and smooth things out in the highs from the horn. I have been trying to hear what the bass will do sans sub with a new amp, but what others have said is true, they will produce more bass than I heard before! I will eventually connect my subwoofer.
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The Anthem 225 I've been trying out has started to come around! Had it here for a week and its been powered on most of the time. Now the sound of the RF 7II's has begun to fill in along with some bass. In fact, it's more fullness from the RF7II's than I've heard from them in the 5 years I've owned them. I purchased the Anthem used and the previous owner had a set of Mundorf AG caps installed to replace the stock Nichicon caps. In discussions with the previous owner, apparently those Mundorf caps only had about 75 hours on them, so it seems that may have not been enough time for them to fully form and settle. All I know, is that between yesterday and today, suddenly a new weight to the sound has appeared from the RF7II's that I never heard before. And I've had a lot of different and integrateds in front of those speakers before. NAD M2, Yamaha AS2000, HK 990, NAD C375BEE. But this Anthem has the most power and current. The control it has is there. Now I'm experiencing some listener fatigue from the horn-- geez! there's always something!
By the way Zen, I looked at the link you posted, and you have a beautiful home and fabulous speakers!
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JefDC, the effect of a high current amp is overlooked frequently and sometimes dismissed by folks that post in audio forums. I saw in one thread where a guy stated that the idea of "high current" was audiophile pig slop, or something like that. When speaker impedance dips below 4 ohms in the bass region, I firmly believe that's something to consider.
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So maybe my room is not the bass challenge I always thought. The arrangement of this family room leaves no options. Re-arrangement is likely the solution. Matching amps and speakers for optimum performance is a challenge unless you get lucky or replicate another setup in a similar room.
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glens, I guess because producing stronger bass has been a struggle in this room over several speakers and systems, and more than one person has stated in audio forums that a concrete slab makes for a tough room. In my case, the wall behind the speakers is brick. To add to the issue, my speakers are on a short wall rather than a long wall. So maybe, its all these things added together. Bottom line, others have stated that a room with a concrete slab as a floor is not good for bass.
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6 hours ago, pzannucci said:
That is interesting. Likely only for movies where you need 3 times the bass output. If a speaker is +/- 3db from 30 -20khz then a sub should definitely not be needed for music.
A speaker with double woofers and that low of an impedance typically will require significant current, such as a Class D (wyred4sound, bel canto icepower or large nCore amps ) and to be properly positioned in the room.
Typical problem with Klipsch speakers is that the high end is tilted up a little and also require proper placement and room treatment, which makes it hard to observe the bass that they are capable of.
Go find some current and work on the room. Subs for music are a band-aid.
Yes, a high current integrated has been the goal to maximize the bass capability of the 4 woofers. I have purposely not connected my subwoofer while evaluating the Anthem 225 because the speakers alone should produce significant bass, thus I continue to consider the Krell S-300i because it's high current. Since the RF7 II's need power and current in the region below 4 ohms, high current seems necessary. I'm considering one other integrated that is known for its bass capability, (Vincent SV-237 mk).
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4 hours ago, mimalmo said:
This is exactly why I purchased a Krell 300i; back then I owned Martin Logan SL3's which are known to go as low as 1.5 ohms at the upper end of the frequency spectrum. It was a wonderful pairing that I miss.
mimalmo, that's a coincidence; On Friday I was talking to a dealer on the phone who carries Krell and Klipsch, asking if he'd ever heard the Krell S-300i with the Klipsch RF7II's (he hadn't). He mentioned that one of his customers had the Krell 300i (not the S-300i), and it was a great match with the Martin Logan speakers. I still wonder if the S-300i would be smooth enough in the highs for the Klipsch horn. Some say this newer Krell is smoother than previous integrateds. The one I've been considering buying has a Synergistic Research fuse, replacing the stock fuse (suppose to smooth the sound more).
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7 minutes ago, willland said:
When we had the RF-7I vs RF-7II vs RF-7III "shootout" at Youthman's house, believe me bass was not an issue. We drove them all with an HK stereo receiver, HK/Acurus A200 combo, and my Yamaha A-S1000 integrated, and all combos exploited the bass each speakers had to offer. The HK/Acurus combo was a bit stronger but none of the speakers lacked bass with any form of amplification. Youthman's family room/kitchen,dining room combo is on the big side and all speakers still excelled down low.
Bill
Thanks Bill. You can always be counted on to add perspective to the SQ conversations.
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35 minutes ago, Shiva said:
Nothing wrong with trying to get the most out of ones speakers. The Anthem you have has very nice reviews and is supposed to be good for bass too. Perhaps, it is a room issue. How far from the front wall are they? Maybe your sitting position is in a null. Have you noticed in some parts of the room, the bass is fuller than other areas? Have you tried playing bass heavy music such as techno dance or rap through them to test the RF7's limit?
The RF7II are a litter more than 1ft from the wall (brick) behind them. The bass is fuller in the powder room connected to the family room and also behind my seated position. I have not played any bass heavy music since getting the Anthem. I have always known I have a tough room (carpet over concrete slab). I still expect more from those 10 in woofers.
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20 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:
I look at it from the pov of what it takes to drive my speakers (with the headroom and volume in mind) and work backwards....That said, I can't imagine you don't have enough current to drive RF-7IIs to their potential and switching out SS amps is not going to matter as much as what is doing the processing.
They do have good bass when played alone but definitely not something you "feel in your chest" regardless of what you are powering them with when compared to using a sub on the same material.
This may be the culprit but once you hook up your sub it may alleviate any problem you are experiencing with bass---It did for me.
Good luck.
Thanks for hanging in there with me Zen! I will likely do just that today!. Just disconnected it when I got the 225.
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I listen to mostly classic jazz from the 50's and I do have an Earthquake Supernova IV subwoofer that I've been using. Since I'm trying an Anthem 225 integrated now, I have yet to hook up the sub because I hoped for more performance in the low end with this powerful integrated. It appears that the integrated is not the perfect match for the RF7II's, although pretty good sonically so far. Been thinking that a true (actual) high current integrated might bring more bass weight, since high current means the ability of an amp to double its power as the speaker impedance dips from 8 ohms to 4 ohms (sometimes even to 2 ohms in very expensive amps).. The Krell S-300i is high current not just high wattage, which made me interested. I have heard some say they get plenty of bass from the RF7II's and some say you they need a sub, but I do have a tough room that may be a big part of my problem--(concrete slab with the wall behind the speakers being brick with FR7II's on the short wall -and no ability to rearrange the family room for a better setup.
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Thanks Zen! I have a good sub (Earthquake supernova), just don't want to have to use it to hear (feel) satisfying low end. The quotes I posted are not the only ones who have commented on the good bass extension of the RF7II's on their own.
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Thanks Zen, but some here and at other forums have posted about strong bass from the RF7II's without a subwoofer. From their reports, I believe the potential of the speakers exists.
Chuck Hawks: "I am very pleased with the RF-7 II's. Good detail and a nice stereo sound stage, extended bass,"
One fellow here said: The high end is crystal clear with zero harshness the midrange is very clean large and real sounding (not artificial sounding like so many speakers are) the bass even with no sub will kick your chest!
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Due to the fact that I haven't gotten the bass I expect from my RF7 II's and had to use a subwoofer in my family room, I have been on the hunt for an integrated amplifier with more grunt. I've been looking for a high current integrated (not just high power): one that doubles it's power as the impedance lowers. Came across the Krell S-300i which is a high current integrated. Trying out an Anthem 225 integrated right now, which is very powerful, but this pairing without the addition of a sub doesn't quite have me convinced to stop looking at a better matching integrated amp yet.
From my reading here, with the RF7II's at 120hz the speaker's impedance drops to 2.8 - 3 ohms, which explains why although they are efficient speakers they still require current to get the woofers moving. The Krell S-300i by many accounts is smoother than traditional old school Krell, but still has the Krell sound and bass. This amp will also have a Synergistic Research Quantum fuse installed which is also known for smoothing the sound signature. I know some frown on pairing Krell with Klipsch. Have you heard this pairing? Do you think it has potential?
Thanks for sharing.
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I had another pair of jumpers that I had yet to try. These are Canare 4S11 (11 gauge). Replacing the Mogami jumpers with the Canare brought on more clarity and refinement to the presentation of the RF7II's. That is an improvement to my ears.
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Ha! No, I remember reading about that in a post, but I tend to listen with my eyes open and ears!
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Hi All,
Just want to inform you of a nice tweak for the RF7II's. I have changed the jumpers on my speakers a few times, abandoning the stock brass metal jumpers a few years ago. I have used solid core (JW Audio Cryo Nova), no name aftermarket jumpers, and bare cable (Audioquest sliver plated copper jumpers). But the ones that have really beefed up and opened up the midrange have been Mogami 10 gauge. These jumpers have made the midrange and highs have a presence I have not heard in the previous years I owned the RF7II's. I highly recommend them. By the way, a respected audiophile, Duster, at Audio Asylum posted in the past recommending that for speaker jumpers to get the heaviest gauge possible, as low as 9 gauge. The fact that I am getting improvement in the midrange presence from these 10 gauge jumpers, backs up his recommendation. Your mileage may vary, but worth trying.
Quote from Duster at Audio Asylum:
"Believe it or not, a jumper really needs a rather massive aggregate gauge in order to provide any body. High conductivity is very important for a bi-wire jumper (bridging from either direction).
I tested one 20 AWG solid core conductor at a time and found that at least an 11 AWG aggregate gauge per leg was needed. 9 AWG is not uncommon in commercial products."
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I live in Columbus OH. A vintage tube amp or integrated is fine but one has to know the refurbishment of that gear has been done well.
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Wiiland,I will sell the AS 2000 if I go with different amplification. Also I missed answering an earlier question you asked. I like listening at not too loud volumes, sometime low level too. With these metal dome tweeters they will pierce your ears out if you play them very loud in a smaller room. Has anyone experienced the RF7 II's with an amp that brought more bass weight, in spite of the room they were in?
Good luck.
RF-7II 's And Krell S-300i Integrated
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Will, I just posted it. Thanks