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Gabriel

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    I just upgraded to Monster Cable. Now my speakers sound like something else entirely

    in Personal Music Systems

    Posted

    I know the difference I heard, that's good enough for me. If you weren't there, then STFU.

    http://www.faqs.org/faqs/AudioFAQ/part8/

    Message-ID:

    X-Last-Updated: 2002/08/30

    Newsgroups: rec.audio.tech, rec.audio.opinion, rec.audio.misc,

    rec.audio.marketplace

    Subject: FAQ: rec.audio.* Wire 2/99 (part 8 of 13)

    Reply-To: neidorff@ti.com

    From: neidorff@ti.com

    Summary: Answers to common questions about audio equipment, selecting,

    buying, set-up, tuning, use, repair, developments, and philosophy.

    Date: 10 Jul 2003 09:54:43 GMT

    Archive-name: AudioFAQ/part8

    Last-modified: 2000/4/12

    Version: 2.15

    15.0 Wire

    More than any other topic, speaker cables and equipment

    interconnects seem to use up rec.audio.* bandwidth echoing

    the same theoretical arguments, testimonials, and opinions.

    Controversy can be stimulating, educational, and also amusing.

    Please try to keep postings aimed at one of those three goals,

    and avoid the insults and emotion. Also, try to avoid

    echoing a common position or principle, as described below.

    15.1 Do speaker cables matter?

    To avoid confusion and repetition, here is some terminology,

    thanks to Steve Lampen of Belden Wire & Cable Co.

    A wire is a single conductor made up of one or more conducting

    elements, but all configured (as in a stranded design) to act

    as a single conductor. Mostly, this is coated or covered by

    plastic, rubber, enamel or similar insulators.

    Groups of wires are called cables. So zip cord is a cable,

    because it contains more than one insulated conducting

    element. Coaxial cable is also cable.

    Cables can introduce noise into the signal, act as a filter

    (and thus change the frequency response of the system),

    attenuate the signal (change the amplitude), and provide

    nonlinearities from oxidized or otherwise poor connections.

    Nonlinearities can distort the signal which add harmonics.

    Nonlinearities can also rectify or demodulate higher frequency

    signals into audible signals.

    It is quite scientifically conceivable that some cables do

    cause a difference in sound, because of the differences in DC

    resistance, interconductor capacitance, and connector attachment

    alone. The effects of exotic conductor weaving and materials

    are not so well established. In general, these effects (once

    we eliminate DC resistance), seem to be small. However, if your

    system is at least fairly good, then some folks have observed

    (although not in an experimental, double-blind sense)

    significant differences in system performance with different

    cables. The effects are said to be quite system specific; the

    only real guideline is to try them and see which ones seem to

    sound better in your system.

    Roughly speaking, the price ranges for speaker cables is low

    (under $1/ft), medium (under $6-8/ft), and high (up to $100/ft

    and more). Try to arrange it so you can trial such cables; at

    several hundred dollars per set, experiments can be expensive.

    In any system or experiment, it is essential that the

    differences between cables be separated from the

    differences between connectors.

    You should have an EXTREMELY solid connection between cable and

    speaker. Speakers operate at very low impedances, so that bad

    connections will create significant artifacts or signal losses

    at any power level. For example, if the connection has a linear

    resistance of just 1 ohm, the speaker damping factor may be

    changed, and the bass may suffer. If the connection contains

    imperfect metal oxides, then a slightly rectifying junction will

    block the signal, producing compression, distortion, and other

    non-linear effects.

    There are many magazine articles on cables with various

    perspectives which are worth reading, including:

    "Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility"

    Fred E. Davis

    Audio, July 1993, pgs. 34-43

    15.2 What speaker cables are available and how good are they?

    There is a wide range of speaker wire available, ranging from

    30ga zip cord (~$.10/ft) to exotic wires costing over $300/ft.

    The material used ranges from copper to oxygen-free copper

    (OFC) to silver. (There are a bunch of others as well.)

    Oxygen-free copper is probably NOT any different from common

    copper in sound. If you hear a difference between two cables,

    it is not a difference between oxygen-free and common copper.

    Resistance may be significant for speaker cables. The higher

    the resistance, the more the cable will affect the sound, all

    else equal. The resistance characteristic of metals is called

    resistivity. The resistivity of copper is 1.7 microohm-cm.

    Silver is very slightly lower, 1.6. Gold is a bit higher, 2.4.

    Silver and gold are different from copper in other ways than

    resistivity. Gold does not oxidize in normal environments,

    so gold contacts will not need periodic cleaning and will not

    create rectifying junctions. Silver will oxidize, but the

    oxide of silver is conductive, so oxidized silver will still

    make good contact. Copper oxide is a bad conductor. Oxidized

    copper contacts may insulate, may conduct, or may rectify.

    Copper is a bad material for cable terminals, but this may or

    may not mean anything for the conductor itself.

    15.3 What can I use for budget speaker cables?

    First, a few words on terminology. Wire is sized by AWG or BS

    gauge number. Larger numbers represent smaller wire. AWG 40

    (also called 40 gauge) is as fine as human hair. AWG 12 is 2mm

    or .081" diameter. If you reduce the AWG number by 3 (such as

    from 29 to 26) then the wire cross-sectional area increases by

    a factor of 2 and the series resistance drops by a factor of 2.

    Some wire is classified as solid, because it contains one

    strand per conductor. Other wire is called stranded, because

    it consists of many strands per conductor. Stranded wire is

    far more flexible than solid wire. Most wire is made from

    drawn copper. Some wire is sold that is claimed to be made

    with a process that produces oxygen-free copper. Oxygen-free

    copper has a different metallurgical structure than common

    copper and may or may not conduct current better.

    Some critical listeners have reported excellent sound from large

    diameter solid copper wire, such as home wiring "Romex 12-2".

    At least one expert has said that common 18-gauge solid copper

    hook-up wire sold by Radio Shack also works very well. Also

    recommended on a budget is Sound King wire, a 12 gauge oxygen

    free copper stranded cable. This is available from MCM

    Electronics for $.39/ft.

    Scientifically, thinner wire has more resistance than fatter

    wire, so fatter wire will have less resistance-related effects.

    Resistance effects can be eliminated by using at least 12

    gauge wire, particularly for long runs. Of course, shorter

    runs are always preferred, because they come much closer to

    the ideal zero-length wire, with no resistance, no

    capacitance, no inductance, and no change in signal.

    15.4 What can I use for budget speaker connectors?

    The worst connectors are push-down, or spring terminals. Screw

    terminals with solid copper wire are much better. Gold-plated

    binding posts and gold spade lugs are inexpensive by audiophile

    standards and are extremely stable. Binding posts with spade

    lugs can be tightened to get a very good mechanical joint, and

    may offer the lowest electrical resistance of any connector.

    Gold plated banana plugs and jacks are very good speaker

    terminals. Good ones are more expensive than gold spade lugs,

    however, they also provide a bigger area of contact, and are

    more convenient when you must frequently reconfigure the system.

    Banana plugs should be periodically monitored for corrosion and

    loss of spring tension. Monster offers a banana-plug connector

    with an expanding center pin that forms an even better

    connection than common gold banana plugs. At approximately $25

    per pair, the Monster banana plugs aren't a budget connector.

    All else equal, connectors with gold surfaces are better than

    connectors with any other surface. This is for two reasons.

    First, gold is extremely inert, meaning that unless gold is

    exposed to very harsh chemicals or harsh vapors, it will not

    corrode or oxidize. It will remain a pure, low-resistance

    conductor. Second, gold is quite soft, so that if a

    gold-plated connector is squeezed between two metal

    surfaces, it will deform slightly to fill scratches and

    voids, giving a very broad, low-resistance contact area.

    Corrosion of connectors is often a problem. Gold-plated

    terminals and connectors somewhat avoid this problem;

    problems with other connectors can be mitigated by

    unplugging and replugging the connector on a regular basis,

    cleaning the contact areas with a pencil eraser, or by

    using a contact enhancer such as Cramolin or Tweek. When

    you use a contact enhancer, be very sure to follow the

    directions, and avoid spreading enhancer about your equipment.

    15.5 What about interconnects, such as the cable between tuner and amp?

    Line-level interconnects conduct smaller signals than speaker

    cables; the typical signal ranges from -2V to +2V (the CD

    output standard) with currents in the microamps (the

    corresponding values for speaker cables attached to a largish

    power amp might be -70V to +70V and currents of many amps).

    Line-level interconnects can be divided into single-ended (or

    unbalanced), and balanced interconnects. Home audio is almost

    always single-ended interconnects.

    Single-ended interconnects almost always use a form of the

    RCA connector (or phono plug). RCA plugs form fair to poor

    connections that degrade with time as corrosion works into the

    metal-metal contact and as the spring tension of the connectors

    relax. Gold-plating reduces the effect of corrosion and locking

    RCA connectors solve most of the mechanical problems. However,

    these premium phono connectors are rare and expensive. For

    example, a gold-plated Vampire locking RCA plug costs

    approximately $23/pair. If RCA connectors weren't a de facto

    standard, we'd recommend against them.

    Unbalanced interconnect wires vary in geometry, material and

    price. Cheaper wires have a single conductor (normally

    stranded) and a shield and cost $.20-$2/ft. Medium (complexity

    and price) wires have two conductors (often arranged as a

    twisted pair) surrounded by a shield and cost from about

    $3-$20/ft. Exotic wires have all sorts of geometries and

    materials (such as stranded silver conductors, or ribbon cable

    braided around a core, or in one extreme case, a tube filled

    with mercury!). Prices may be as high as $200-$300/ft.

    Balanced interconnects have three conductors: two for the signal

    one for ground, and additionally a shield. The standard

    connector for balanced cable is the ITT/Cannon XLR connector,

    which is quite good mechanically (they lock). Equivalent

    connectors are also available from Switchcraft, Neutrik, and

    other vendors. If you have to run cables longer than 12 feet or

    4 meters, the greater noise immunity of balanced interconnects

    is often a good idea. For this reason, balanced connectors are

    standard equipment in professional installations such as

    studios, public address systems, and broadcast stations. There

    is not much variation in balanced cables. The three brands

    mentioned above are known to be rugged, high quality and

    moderately priced. Slightly weaker imported connectors are

    available, but they aren't dramatically cheaper. Better

    connectors are also easier to assemble and have a more durable

    cord strain-relief.

    For most systems, the most important aspect of a cable are

    the mechanical reliability of the connectors; in particular,

    the joint between connector and wire, and the joint between

    connector and socket. Typically, interconnect cables are

    short. It is worth getting just the right length; cables

    often come in .5 meter increments. With quite good systems,

    some people observe differences in sound between various

    interconnects. This is quite system-specific and the same

    advice as given above applies: try several brands. Most

    good dealers will loan interconnects for home evaluation.

    In cables where the shield does not carry the signal or ground,

    the shield is normally only connected to ground at one end.

    In systems where there are significant differences between

    ground levels on various components, it may make a difference

    which way such cables are connected. Typically, the end where

    the shield is grounded should be at the source of the signal.

    Often, such cable has arrows on it pointing in the direction of

    the signal flow. In any case, try both orientations.

    There are many objective reasons why cables might cause

    differences in sound by interacting with the drivers in the

    signal sources as well as by providing non-linear effects in the

    RCA connector. Most of these effects are again related to

    interconductor capacitance and resistance, and the quality of

    the shielding provided by the "shield" conductor. In balanced

    cables the quality of the "twisted pair" inside the shield is

    also important. One might note that a shield protects from only

    capacitively coupled interference, and not from any magnetic

    field interference. The twisted pair in a balanced line provide

    some magnetic rejection, as does steel conduit. However, steel

    conduit has other characteristics which make it undesirable for

    audio in general.

    15.6 What about Phono Interconnects:

    Phono interconnects are part of the link between a cartridge on

    a turntable and a preamp (or head amp or receiver). They are a

    special case of line-level interconnects because the signal is

    much lower, typically 1 to 50 millivolts. They are also

    intended to operate into a higher impedance, typically 47K ohms,

    and form part of the capacitive load for the cartridge.

    The low signal levels mean that the shielding of the cable, and

    the presence of a separate drain/shield are more important, as

    is a good ground. A separate solid ground should come along

    with the cable as a separate lead co-routed with the cable.

    In addition, the low signal levels make a good solid connection

    to and through the connectors MUCH more important, because of

    the greater sensitivity to low-level nonlinearities.

    Wire capacitance is often ignored in line-level interconnects;

    however, in a phono interconnect, it may constitute half of the

    total capacitive load of the cartridge. Obviously, then, two

    cables with significantly different capacitances should sound

    differently. In this sense, the "right" cable for one cartridge

    may be too low or high in capacitance for another cartridge.

    For low-impedance cartridges (most moving coil cartridges),

    the wire must have low resistance to prevent cartridge unloading

    and frequency-dependent signal loss. In addition, as the

    signal levels are quite low, shielding is important.

    Unfortunately, copper shields do not block stray magnetic

    fields, so in the case of phono cables, careful routing may be

    even more effective at reducing hum than special wire.

    15.7 Is there really a difference in digital interconnects?

    There are now three kinds of digital interconnects that connect

    transports to D/A converters: coax, plastic fiber (Toslink) and

    glass fiber (AT&T ST). In theory, these should sound EXACTLY

    the same (bits are bits). However, this assumes good circuit

    design (in particular, the clock recovery circuits of the DAC,

    and careful consideration of electronic noise) which may be

    compromised because of cost considerations or ignorance. Note:

    different signaling schemes are used on plastic and glass fiber.

    In any case, some people claim to hear a difference;

    of those who do, most seem to prefer the glass fiber.

    However, the technology of fast digital data transmission

    in consumer electronics is evolving very quickly now.

    Any specific recommendation should be treated with

    suspicion until the industry matures.

    15.8 Can I make very good interconnects myself?

    Yes. You will need to be the judge of whether or not they

    are as good as $100 interconnects, but it is easy to make

    interconnects that are better than the $2.00 set which comes

    with new equipment.

    There are two necessary ingredients: two-conductor shielded

    cable and RCA connectors. There is a lot of debate over what

    is the best cable, but in general, the lower the capacitance

    per foot, the better. Choice of insulation is harder. There

    may be an advantage to polypropylene or teflon over polyester

    or rubber, but even that is debatable. If you are buying wire

    from an electronics distributor, some have successfully used

    Belden 1192A microphone cable. It is rubber insulated, so very

    flexible. Another recommended cable is Belden 8451. This is

    a polypropylene cable with foil shield. Finally, consider

    Belden 89182. This is foamed teflon insulated, so very low

    capacitance, and foil shielded. If you plan to make a long

    cable, this low capacitance cable may be the best choice.

    There is also a variety of RCA connectors available. A

    good connector would be gold plated and machined to tight

    tolerances. A poorer connector will not fit as well, will

    make poorer contact as the connecting surface oxides, and

    will lose its springiness with use.

    When wiring the cable to the connector, use one wire for

    signal, (the tip of the RCA connector) and one wire for

    ground (the shell or outer conductor of the RCA connector).

    Some cables use a foil shield which is difficult to solder.

    These cables typically have a drain wire parallel to the foil

    which can be used for soldering. Others use a braided shield.

    Regardless of which type of wire you have, connect the shield

    or the shield drain wire to ground on only ONE SIDE. This will

    stop noise picked up by the shield from causing ground noise.

    It can be a touchy job soldering RCA connectors. Before

    you use your new cables, check with an ohmmeter or

    a continuity tester to make sure that you have not

    accidentally sorted the signal and ground leads together,

    either with a stray drop of solder or a loose wire strand.

    15.9 Is there a standard for wiring balanced XLR-3 cables?

    Yes. Connect pin 1 to ground/green, pin 2 to white, and

    pin 3 to black. Herb Hamilton suggests that you remember

    "George Washington Bridge" and then use the first letter

    of each word (GWB) to help you remember Green=1, White=2,

    and Black=3. This same wiring convention works for

    balanced line level signals and balanced microphone cables.

    COPYRIGHT NOTICE

    The information contained here is collectively copyrighted by the

    authors. The right to reproduce this is hereby given, provided it is

    copied intact, with the text of sections 1 through 8, inclusive.

    However, the authors explicitly prohibit selling this document, any

    of its parts, or any document which contains parts of this document.

    --

    Bob Neidorff; Texas Instruments / Internet: neidorff@ti.com

    50 Phillippe Cote St. / Voice : (US) 603-222-8541

    Manchester, NH 03101 USA

    Note: Texas Instruments has openings for Analog and Mixed

    Signal Design Engineers in Manchester, New Hampshire. If

    interested, please send resume in confidence to address above.

    I just upgraded to Monster Cable. Now my speakers sound like something else entirely

    in Personal Music Systems

    Posted

    ----------------

    On 7/26/2003 1:09:02 AM iXtreme wrote:

    One more thing, we have 1000 ft. wooden spools of old cat 3 wire at my work which is I believe 26 ga. I tested the resistance of the wire to see if distance makes a difference. I got a 0.00 on the multimeter over 1000 ft. Not even 1/100 of an ohm of resistance over that 1000 feet. I also powered up a 60 watt 12VDC bulb through one of the four twisted pairs with an old ATX 235 watt PSU and it ran just fine for about half an hour then I gave up my test. Cable did not even get warm during the test. This whole big gauge/better sound/long distances thing is a sham brought to us by the people who make the expensive wire. The "ONLY" benefit from the expensive cable is it looks pretty. Too bad it's buried behind equipment:).

    ----------------

    You are so full of ****.

    I just upgraded to Monster Cable. Now my speakers sound like something else entirely

    in Personal Music Systems

    Posted

    ----------------

    On 7/26/2003 12:56:32 AM iXtreme wrote:

    My guess is the wire "upgrade" sound improvements are purely placebo effect from spending so much money on them. Believe me this DOES happen, I thought my wire upgrade helped alot with mids and highs till I set up my 4.1 system temporarily in my unfinished basement with the stock wires... guess what... same exact sound. You can put all the big gauge wire you want on between amp and sub but the sats still have like 22 or 24 ga. wire inside them and the wattage going thru the wires is so minimal a single strand of copper wire from those Monster cables would suffice. Homes use 14 ga. to pump out 1875 watts at 115V so 22 or 24 ga. for these promedias at it's 30 something "real" watts is just fine. The stock wires will sound exactly the same as any upgrade you may do. Do yourself a favor and save the money for something else. Sounds negative I know, but it's the truth. 24 ga. wire will have the same resistance of 0.00 ohms on the multimeter as will 2 ga. wire. Have someone hook up one of the four sats with monster and the other three with stock and see if you can tell the difference blind folded. You won't be able to unless you get a lucky guess.

    ----------------

    You got fired from an audio company didn't you?

    Frank Herbert's Dune

    in Lounge

    Posted

    You're talking about the miniseries, right?

    I haven't seen them yet, but saw the 2 1/2 David Lynch movie. It was totally awesome. Dunno why it was bashed by critics though.

    on a related note, if anyone is looking for the director's disowned cut 4 hour version of the movie, you can get it at http://www.cdjapan.co.jp

    Anyone seen "Star Wars: Attack of the Clones" yet?

    in Lounge

    Posted

    I saw in a midnight preview

    the sound was....

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    .

    LOUD!!!!!!

    No really, and of course, it was also 6 point surround in digital.

    Word of advise, and I'm not giving away any more spoilers (after I just gave away the script)

    The love scene between Padme and Anakin just plain sucks. The movie, for some reason, kept cutting between Obi-wan, on Kamino and the two lovebirds on Naboo - one moment action, the next moment romance, then action, then romance. The 'love dialogue' was undoubtly the worst - utterly corny, cliched and totally sophomoric. The last 45 mins was totally awesome, and Yoda really kicked butt (you have to see it)

    Elvis in Attack of the Clones (spoiler free)!!!

    in Lounge

    Posted

    Inside Dex's Diner (which looks suspiciously like a 50's roadside diner), listen carefully to the music (tune only, no lyrics) playing on the jukebox in the background.

    Interestingly, in the movie Men in Black, Agent K said Elvis wasn't dead, he just went home...proof that the King does come from a galaxy far far away Smile.gif

    Also, just outside the diner, before Obi-wan enters, there is a 'beep beep' Road Runner sound made by one of the vehicles.

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