jazman
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Posts posted by jazman
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I agree about some of the limitations of SET amplifiers. I have a few of them, and enjoy them tons. I also found that a little more horsepower is really a benefit for home theater sound tracks. I suspect part of that has to do with the fact that I've learned to enjoy some of the really amazing dynamics available with HT, and those huge shifts in contrast between dialogue and effects is something that, for me, is much improved with more power. This isn't to say that triode amps aren't capable of very good, clean and loud SPLs, because I hear that all the time with music. The Moondogs, or Moth on Klipschorns can be awesome. Same with the Horus parafeed amps from a few years back. That amplifier, to me, was very much an in-between sort of design in terms of the cool/warm color temp. thing. With no coupling capacitors between stages, so is the Moth si2A3. The Horus was actually similar in ways to the SE OTL mentioned above. Kind of wish I still had them sometimes, but that's not out of the realm of possibility. It's the kind of amp that Bottlehead specializes in, too, and it's not a new approach to vacuum tube audio.
I agree and appreciate the comment about enjoying different designs for what they are.
edit: Erik (forgot my name)
Erik,
Wrong forum. This is 2 Channel. This thread really has nothing to do with Home Theater. Thanks.
Klipsch out.
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"@Gary,
I have no idea why vinyl playback should lead to different listening results than using CDs.....especially if you always use the same phono-/linestage and only swap power amps. Anyway, to my ears the source doesn't matter (in terms of evaluating the tone of each amp)......each amp has its own flavour.Wolfram
Wolfram,
I don't know why that was the case but the 4 or 5 of us in the room all heard the same thing. Maybe a really good vinyl rig brings out more of the amps character then a CD player/SACD player."
Gary
I think it's possible most CD players sound like crap. A good vinyl rig will usually have a good cartridge in the playback loop.
Klipsch out.
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I wouldn't play "acoustic jazz" at high volumes either and bet 1/4 watt would be too loud for me if I had to listen to it for long. [
]So much for musical tastes, huh? Coldplay is my mellow stuff. I keep trying to listen to jazz from time to time but Jesus, what torture.
Anyway,
I would like to hear your opinions Jazman on the different equipment you did hear. This is our first chance to hear some comparative reviews of VRD's vs. pCats vs. set vs. others. Take volume out of the equation and lets hear about the nuances between the various amps.
I can try to gather some thoughts and write my impreessions. It will likely require a few days to get it written though. Work always manages to interfere with my free time, but I think your question is legit.
Klipsch out.
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Sorry if this has been covered already but were you guys listening to vinyl or CDs or both? We've had a couple amp shootouts at my place and for some reason VRDs always excel with vinyl while there wasn't a huge difference with CDs. Just curious.
Edmond - I sure wish you lived closer. I'd love to hear your setup or just hang out and spin some vinyl!
Gary,
We did not have a working TT available, so it was CD's. They were played on Mark's Rega Apollo, which is better than the average CDP.
And yes, it would be great to hang out and spin some vinyl on each of our systens. At the end of the day, it's really about recognizing, and appreciating the different presentations of different components, within different systems, of different people. I understand that. I started this thread as more of a jabbing statement to get rid of those who have butted into SET threads with nothing but negative BS mostly. People could not even inquire about SET amps on this forum without the same old crap from people who do not even own one. People should feel free to seek advice and discuss whatever amplifier option they wish to pursue, without any attempts to discredit their pursuit or choice. I really have nothing against anyone's choice of VRD amps, or push pull, or SS, and have never spent any time with a negative campaign against anyone's choice. The producer of VRD's, in particular, has been one of those, so it is time for the door to be closed on that smug attitude. His product is "not all that", as the youngsters would say, so a more humble attitude should be in order, and more respect for all.
The End.
Klipsch out.
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Gary,
that's precisely where I finally decided to put my VRDs in the system over my Wright 3.5s. It was in playing vinyl. I have a large room and felt I ran out of gas playing in the higher volumes. The Wrights, though sweeter sounding and more focused, were thinner sounding, particularly with my vinyl rig. I listen to a wide range of music including rock, and the VRDs just bring the power. I'm trying to get jazman to my place for a shootout. I KNOW his 'Dogs are better than my stock Wrights, and I'd like to hear the difference.
Darrell
Darrell,
I would love to get together. One caveat is, I personally am not a "High" volume listener, so please don't be offended if I exit the room while you listen past a certain level. I'm not worried about the amps. My listening is 90% vinyl. Let's get some email going on it.
Klipsch out.
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I wouldn't be afraid to use those Electra-Print transformers. I still need to use my pair of James universal OPT's for a project.
Some time ago I unhooked the Scholl OPT's I use with my 2A3 amp, and clip-leaded in the James ouput transformers. I listened to the James for a week or so, swapping taps, and even tried the different primary taps.
The James OPT's sound nice in my amp. But I remember hooking back up the Scholl's and prefering them. Not quite as sweet with a bit more grunt I suppose......
The Scholl's have a 3600 ohm primary with a 8 and 16 ohm secondary. Now I always wonder why folks say a single-ended triode amp has no bass and rolled-off highs.
I don't just play Jazz on the amp, but of course Jazz shines best with it. It will sound good with a well recorded compact disc of any genre. It does Techno rather well, industrial, metal......within it's operating range of course.
You would think I would use the subwoofers for music with lower frequency. But the amp can do 30 Hz, and you can tell. The subwoofers just kinda thump away with nothing really to add, I eventually just turn them all the way down, then off.
The subwoofers mesh up fine with my SS integrated amp. But the SET amp is best alone. More natural....hell even synth notes sound more natural. JMHO.
Maybe ol' Dan cobbled up a pretty good circuit....I dunno.....
Hi Mike,
I was attempting to be kind to the previous bashing crowd when I made the statement about listening to Jazz music. In the real world, acoustic instruments define musicality. Well done SET amps excel at this. It does not require a rocket science degree to hear it.
Klipsch out.
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the new Wright Sound 3.5s are using the Sowter OPT, still happy with MQ iron myself, no slight taken with the swap.
Edmond, which 6SN7s are you using now? the good ones are harder to find.
the Frown Digest magazine posted a correction to the 20-watt minimum requirement a while back . .
as for Moondogs though, hearing is believing.
Coda,
Haven't you added a few upgrades to your Wrights? I thought I recall Kelly saying something to that effect once upon a time, and yours as being the only pair of Wrights that he felt could hang with his Moondogs. What improvements did you make?
On the 6SN7 issue, I currently have in each of my monoblocks, one Mullard ECC32, and one AVW 6SN7. I also really like the Brimar CV1988 (miiltary version), or Brimar 6SN7GT clear glass (oval plate) which is the non miltary version of the CV1988. The Brimars I use in pairs, or one Brimar mated with one Mullard ECC33 in each monoblock. I also have 2 pair of Amperex 6SN7 (brown base) that I do not use anymore because you can't find them. The person I bought my Moondogs from threw them in the deal.
The remaining tubes I have installed now are RCA VT95 2A3 blackplates, and metal base GZ34s (double D getters) for rectifiers.
Klipsch out.
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Eric,
I have not heard TS OTL. One reason I have shied away is the lack of transformers which, to "ME", are very key to low powered amp performance. Maybe one day I'll find one to listen to.
That said, a 45 SET amp was the best low powered amp I've heard.
Klipsch out.
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The NorCal gathering this weekend was a great opportunity to hear a number of different power sources for wonderfully efficient Klipsch speakers. It reinforces my belief each individual set his/her own set of guidellines for what sonic characteristics appeals to them. More importanly, it was agreat opportunity to debunk many of the SET bashing statements often posted in this forum by those with only limited exposure to SET amps, and think all SET amps are the same. They are not! Moondogs plus the Ultimate upgrade package, do not take a back seat to VRDs, but maybe it's because I listen to mostly Jazz. Sorry Craig!
Klipsch out!
Edmond,
I think you and I have similar tastes in audio. I still have my Moondogs with Ultimate upgrade package. I also use the RCA blackplates with them as well as the fabled RCA black single plate tubes.
With that said I listen to my Welborne DRD45s about 90% of the time. If you ever get a chance to live with a 45 amp in your system, try it, I think you'll like it. I have been a 45 devotee for over 3 years now. I recently received the Welborne Star Chief kit that I'm currently building. It's supposed to be an upgrade over the DRD45.
Kevin,
I thought I had mentioned I've wanted to add a 45 SET amp for a long time now, maybe 3 yrs or so. Somehow, I always find it hard to justify cost wise, (though I did plunk down for the pair of 2A3 Horus that I may put on the market in the near future), and partly because of dollars spent upgrading my vinyl front end components. With my son in college now, I seldom spend on myself. Maybe, with a downsize of my house, I may get to squeeze it in. If I do, it will be the tube rectified version. BTW, my Moondogs also put the "SET amps have no bass", or 3.5 watts can't control the bass" BS to rest, and at least to me, was tighter and more toneful with accoustic bass notes than the VRDs and even big SS. I am hoping to get another opportunity to listen to VRD amps for a longer session, with different music selections, and get a better handle on that, though I don't think it will change. I suspected most of the Saturday attendees were very surprised when they heard the Moondogs, and I think it's an experience that will stick for a while.
Klipsch out.
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The 'dogs actually rock pretty well. I don't usually drive them that way, but my older son has on occasion, and he says they do ok.
James,
I have been wondering if you wish you had kept the Moondogs? I really like them a lot.
Bruce
Yes!!
They were a experiment for me since I wanted to hear SET amps and they sound great. 2006 was suppose to be the year I paid off bills and got back in financial shape. Instead I bought the Moondogs, Fortes, and a lot of different tubes.
So the only reason I sold them is because I needed the money. They could play louder than I listen at in my living room, 15 x 15 x 8. If someone listens at very loud levels and has a large room they would not work.
Moondogs work in much larger space than you think. My room is over 17' wide, 25" long, with 20 ft ceiling. I think that qualifies as a high volume room.
Klipsch out.
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Fini,
If I could live without them a month, you would be on. But I can't.
I posted these comments apart from the gathering as something positive about the viability of SET amps, and not the BS that has gone on here in the past. "One" of the reasons I had stopped posting here was due to the same grossly negative statements about SET amps over and over. Now that you and the few other have experienced a well done SET amp with their own ears, the BS does not have credibility.
It simply needed to be said.
Hopefully, this will create a more open mindset among readers. I'm not selling SET amps. Simply weary of the push by some to depict all low powered SET amps as something less desirable or less credible within the audio experience. The true beauty of high efficiency speakers from Klipsch or other brands, is not how "high" the power that's needed, but just how little high quality power is required.
Klipsch out.
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The NorCal gathering this weekend was a great opportunity to hear a number of different power sources for wonderfully efficient Klipsch speakers. It reinforces my belief each individual set his/her own set of guidellines for what sonic characteristics appeals to them. More importanly, it was agreat opportunity to debunk many of the SET bashing statements often posted in this forum by those with only limited exposure to SET amps, and think all SET amps are the same. They are not! Moondogs plus the Ultimate upgrade package, do not take a back seat to VRDs, but maybe it's because I listen to mostly Jazz. Sorry Craig!
Klipsch out!
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Why would anyone buy a pre amp with a seperate power supply and "stack them" or even place them "side by side"? Kind of defeats the whole concept.
Klipsch out.
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I am using a MM cartridge now, what advantages would there be if any for me to go to a MC cartridge?
Jay
Almost everything you need to know about phono cartridges can be found on the Van den Hul site. There is a section on MM vs MC cartridges.
http://www.vandenhul.com/artpap/phono_faq.htm#1
Klipsch out.
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" ... My impression and belief are that spikes and TT feet by themselves aren't enough to fully damp a table and reduce audible resonances and grit. The question is whether the magnetic force and maybe the air cushion will sop up more of those. "
I believe and agree with Larry that TT performance can be improved by addressing more than the issues of damping, but "audible resonances" and "grit". Symposium's Ultra platform is "high end". Larry uses Townsend's high end product, The Sink.
Klipsch out.
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At the very least they need some accolades for the cool-geek factor. Where are you falling on this idea Yea or Ney?
http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=NOBWMP1A&utm_source=email&utm_medium=special
The term "isolation" is often used, but seldom defined as to what form/s of isolation it is providing. Is it providing isolation from foot fall, (floor born), sonic vibrations, (air born), component vibration, (motors, transformers,) etc? The best I can determine is, it addresses floor born vibrations.
This unit uses magnets to provide it's concept of floating the shelf the turntable rest upon. There are magnets on the underside of the shelf and frame that maintain an air cushion so the shelf does not rest on the frame. The white rollers, are attached to the shelf itself to prevent the shelf moving horizontally forward or backward. How effective it is, I have not idea, though as a shelf, it appears that some of it's performance capability will be linked to the additional stand upon which it rests.
I believe TT isolation issues are more complex than "floor born" vibration, though it is the most obvious detriment. I would consider the $500 better spent toward more comprehensive addressing of the issues.
Klipsch out.
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I have my VPI Scout all set up with a Dynavector 20xH cart and have had some time to listen to it. I was very skeptical of vinyl and figured that there would nto be that much of a difference from CD's.
I will hold judgment as to whether it blows CD's away. I think CD's sound very good in my system.
I will give a little background. Before gettign my TT set up, I went over to a friend's house. He had just gotten a Music Hall setup that was $500 including the cart. A lot of the vinyl that he had sounded flat, and a lot sounded very good. Kind of hit or miss. He had a great A/B test. A Nora Jones SACD that he bought included a vinyl copy. We listened to both and honestly could not tell the difference, it was that close. He interpreted the result as Vinyl is good, but why give up the ease of CD's? I looked at it this way, a $500 TT, including cart sounded the SAME as his $4,000 Esoteric SACD player on a new recording. I was impressed, but a little troubled that much of the vinyl did not sound all that great.
Now to the VPI. It was pretty easy to setup, but a PITA to get all of the parts. If you buy one, make sure you have the correct length cart mounting bolts and a stylus force gage. You will need it and may not be able to find this stuff locally. Try DJ supply houses. I had to mail order teh Shure gage. Thanks ebay, took two days to get it.
I got the TT set up and played Peter Gabriel Plays Live. Great album. I was very skeptical. I am the guy who likes his SS over tubes (very good SS, can't be just any SS, and yes, tubes sound just as good as high quality SS for less money, but being up and running and listening to music in 20 seconds is nice) and who did not think that SET was that much better than a $100 digital amp. Very skeptical of the hoopla. I figured that I would try vinyl for a few months and then be selling it for a high end CD player.
Well, I was immediately floored. The sound is so thick. That's the best way that I can describe it, very thick and you really hear the beat of the music. My CD's have great soundstage, imaging etc, so that is not being bettered. But, the music is just different. I ususally and on the net when listening. When I put vinyl on I get the urge to put the laptop down and listen, it has all of my attention. I also can't stop my foot from tapping. (OK - everyone picture Steve Martin as Nathan Jones in the beginning of The Jerk)
I still can't say that vinyl is definately better than CD's, but I had to put FM on to type this. I tried with vinyl on and could not concentrate. it just takes you away. You have to get up every 20 minutes but it does not interrupt you because all that you are doing is listening to the music. It has been a pretty good experience so far. I now have my eye on a VPI record cleaning machine. This seems like it is a necessity. Surface noise is not that bad, but soem records are silent and other are not. I want them all silent.
Thanks to all that steered me in this direction.
One last thing. I was worried about the PRAT thing and considered a Rega. The VPI has PRAT. It is not just there, I get lost in the music and the beat, just like Nathan Jones...
Congrats on your new Scout. Believe me, you are only scratching the surface. I would dare say that the Scout will overtake the imaging and soundstage of your CD player with a different cartridge, better isolation, motor upgrade, and a humble VPI PLC (prior to the SDS). If your Dynavector was new, you should have had the proper bolts. A stylus gauge is mandatory to set up any cartridge. Experiment with the VTA on your current cartridge.
Properly set up, the VPI Scout is unbelievably good. With the few tweaks mentioned,....oh my! A record cleaner will help with some of the surface noise, but so can a cartridge. Continue to enjoy the music.
Klipsch out.
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It takes a Dick to know one.
My final post.
Klipsch out.
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I learned a new word the other day - I only mention it because I've been looking for a word that conveys this most annoying behavior.
"prig"
one who offends or irritates by observance of proprieties (as of speech or manners) in a pointed manner or to an obnoxious degree
It's one thing to be offended by something when it's directed specifically towards you in a negative manner, but it's an entirely different thing to complain when it has nothing to do with you in the first place and wasn't even meant to be taken negatively. In fact, I would argue that such priggish behavior is the most extreme form of racism!
Paraphrased: "Take the stick out of your butt and feel free to beat yourself with it. Don't forget to take a shower afterwards"
(man I love that quote - can't remember who said it though)
DrWho(DrWhat),
As usual, you don't know the difference between sh!t and Shinola.
If someone's behavior, intentional or not, is harmful to another, to stand by and do nothing is totally the wrong course of action. It would be more reasonable, that when harmful behavior was pointed out, an acknowledement would be made, a lesson could be learned, and corrected behavior would be the new course of action. Nothing seems further from the truth in this thread. As I stated before. Go to any major corporations human resources manager and ask if the term used is considered an ethnic slur. Definitely would not be behavior to be excused with "lighten up", have a glass of wine, etc. It's been a great lesson for me as to the mindset of the majority membership contributing here. I spent much time and effort in years past working for equal opportunity and removal of social, political, and econmic barriers for not only minority people, but all people. This is a benchmark which clearly indicates how closed minds, and lack of awareness are the rule. Further, this is a great reminder of how much work still remains to be done.
You ticked me off so badly that I had to edit this.
Klipsch out.
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if yer smart ....
you'll pack it in now .....
either that , or take the same thrashin' that Sputnik got last March ......[
]I would gladly like you to try thrashing me, any time, any place! People like you are cowards at best.
Klipsch out.
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Has anyone heard this one?
When I talked to my local rega dealer a while back and asked his reccommendation on the Apollo, he told me to hang on to my money, that the upcoming player (the Saturn) would be far superior! He ball parked the retail price at $1,800.00 (that'll keep me using my Planet for the forseeable future!).
Just curious if anyone's had any listening experiences with this one.
Marty
I own an Apollo, previously owned, and still have, an original Rega Planet. At the time I purchased the Apollo, the upcoming Saturn model was not available. The Apollo is a noticeble upgrade over the original Planet. I ca not comment on the Saturn vs the Apollo because I have not heard the Saturn. Here are a few links which may be of some value. The last link is a Stereophile review of the Apollo only which.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/121872.html
http://www.hifix.co.uk/sku2.lasso?REGA-SATURN&item=90c4401a9c9b7b1643f047ac9a5a0394
http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/606rega/index1.html
I have enjoyed listening to the Apollo. Because vinyl is my primary source, I am not currently planning to upgrade to a Saturn, plus, the Apollo is a great sounding unit, and well worth it's $1000 price tag. Good luck with your decision.
Klipsch out.
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Thanks for posting a photo of yourself.
Klipsch out.
GEEEZ.....
I thought you'd recognize your mother .........[
]Thanks for more firmly establishing yourself as the "low-life" you've already demonstrated yourself to be.
Klipsch out.
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Thanks for posting a photo of yourself.
Klipsch out.
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You know, I thought "caucasion" was just a typo or poor spelling. You learn something every day. It is a racial slur. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=caucasion
My typo error should have read "Caucasian". This issue seems amusing to many. I am not one of them. One day.............you will not be so amused. Maybe your children or grandchildren will be the one to awaken you.
Klipsch out.
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SET, yes. 2A3 Moondogs, absolutely!
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
Mr. Piranha,
Please outline for us which SET amp you have owned that would qualify you to make any comment within this thread with any first hand knowledge. BTW,.......A response that you don't own one, never have owned one, but you spent the night at a Birds house last night does not qualify you. [N]
You don't seem to get it. A few members of this forum have now heard with their own ears, evidence that contradicts the propaganda you spew. Why are you, and others like you, so afraid of individuals discussing or pursuing options other than what you have chosen, that it drives you to interfer with their discussions? I truly pity small minds and intellect.
Klipsch out.