adam2434
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Posts posted by adam2434
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42 minutes ago, klipschfancf4 said:
So you removed the wires from the binding posts? I suppose that way works but if you do it again, its so much easier to pull the passive & unhook the wires from the drivers terminals, then you pull out the entire crossover, binding posts & all. Avoids the desolder & resolder of the wires to the binding posts that you mentioned was difficult.
Also, depending on your space limitations, I suggest getting these off those high stands, it really hurts the bass output & the whole "ear level" thiing is way over rated IMO... maybe tilt them back a bit to help project the sound upwards if you are standing a lot in the room. But if you can, place them on the floor & into the corners of the room as much as possible, maybe a foot or so from the back wall & no more than 2-3 feet from the side walls & toed in a bit, it will really increase the bass output which the fortes are known for. Funny how they hold their own & maybe even exceed your $3000 jbl's. fortes are great speakers!
The binding posts are circled in red. The lead wires have to be desoldered from the binding posts to get the board off of the terminal cups to gain access to the solder side of the board. I don't see how one could gain access to the solder side of the board without doing this. Did I miss something big?
Yeah, I know that having them off the floor reduces the bass, but that's where they have to fit for now. If I ever rearrange the unfinished part of the basement, I might be able to find a spot for them on the floor. Perhaps moving them closer than 1' to the back wall could help with the bass on the stands? I have them at about 9" now, and the bass sounds pretty good, but yeah, I'm sure it could be better...
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Thanks!
I built the risers when I got the JBL LS80 floorstanders a couple months ago. The height of the risers put the JBL tweeters at ear level when I'm standing, which is how I listen in this room...working out, putzing around with electronics and speakers on the workbench, etc. Prior to the JBL's, I had a shelf on that wall and used bookshelf speakers - tried several brands/models and finally realized that a bookshelf speaker would just not cut it in this large open space at higher SPL's.
To get the Forte tweeters to ear level, I would need to add about 8" to the risers. However, when I bend down a bit to get my ears at tweeter level, I do not notice a significant change in sound, so adding 8" to the risers is not a big priority.
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On 3/4/2017 at 3:39 AM, Grizzog said:
Fortes have always been MDF.My Forte I's are plywood - just had them open to do crossover work.
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22 hours ago, klipschfancf4 said:
Looks good! The j-hook trick to make lead extensions works great, I stood the electrolytic cap up on end like the original was, but that was on forte 2's which have a bigger board & different arrangement I think.
Did the speakers have any sound problems with the original caps, or did you just want to change them due to age? If they were sounding ok, the sound improvement migh not be as dramatic as mine were, it was like there was a blanket covering the mids & tweets on the one speaker, after the caps upgrade they sounded like brand new speakers. But at least you know yours are good for another 25+ years!
My original intention was to only replace the 30 year old NPE’s, figuring they were in need. I’ve only owned the Forte’s for 1 week and had never heard a pair before buying them. So, I can’t say that I was trying to fix a problem with the sound – they sounded very good prior to the cap replacements, but I figured the NPE’s were tired or soon to be. You and others convinced me to go ahead with replacing the film caps too.
I finished the 2nd crossover yesterday and played them for a few hours, but only really listened to them about an hour while working out. I’ll play them more today. My initial impression is that the new caps make the speakers sound significantly cleaner, more open, and more detailed across all frequencies, but especially in the high frequencies. So far I’m pretty impressed with the sound, and I may prefer them to the JBL LS80’s I’ve been using in this location for a month or so. That’s pretty surprising to me because the JBL’s are a newer design (2008) with a $3000/pr original price. I’ll report back when I get a chance to do more listening.
Getting the terminal cups back into the speakers was a major pain. The tolerances to get them back in are very tight. On the 2nd crossover, the height of a couple of my solder joints on the top of the crossover would not allow the terminal cup to go back in. The solder joints on the top of the board need to be nearly flush to get the terminal cup in. I had to remove my solder, clip the leads to nearly flush, then resolder 2 joints to get the terminal cup in. Getting the terminal cups back in and getting the leads off the binding posts were the most difficult parts of this job. The rest of the job was pretty straight-forward, although time-consuming for a relative novice like myself.
For both speakers, I worked on the crossovers with the wires attached to the drivers. The 1st speaker was upright. I placed the second speaker front-down, which made the work easier, as I could simply rest the crossover on the back of the speaker.
I’m kicking myself a bit for not thinking of replacing the resistors with Mills while I had the crossovers out. But I am definitely not going back in for that.
I attached a couple pics of the full speakers. Not much to see, given that they are in the unfinished portion of our basement. These Forte’s will probably go to one of my kids someday when they have a place of their own.
I need to try to cover some scratches and nicks in the black finish. A black Minwax stain pen did not work, so I’m looking for other options.
In additional to soliciting input, my intention for this thread was to provide some detailed insight to others considering refreshing their Forte’s.
Thanks to all that provided input.
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If you use the analog output from your Mac, your receiver will to an A-D then D-A conversion if you use bass management or any other processing. Plus the signal is limited by the quality of the Mac's DAC. These are limiting factors to sound quality.
Before you get an outboard DAC, I suggest you try the digital optical output from your MAC. I'm not at Apple guy, but I believe most Mac's output digital optical from the headphone output. Using this, you will keep the signal in the digital domain and will only be using the DAC in your receiver.
If you are using Airlplay built into the receiver, an outboard DAC would not be relevant, as you would be using the DAC in the receiver.
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Site won't let me upload the after shot...need to make it smaller I guess.
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6 minutes ago, oldred said:
So ....when do we get to see your handy work,
George,
Not much to see regarding the grill peg inserts
, but here's a before and after shot of the 1st crossover. Plan to get started on the 2nd one in a bit.
I used klipschfancf4's J-hook reco for the to make the axial NPE work.
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Forgot to mention that I used Liquid Nails Perfect Glue Fuze It (PG-00) for the grill peg inserts. It's a clear, flexible glue that comes in a small tube. The package said it was good for wood and rubber, so I figured it would be a good choice.
I used a small craft foam applicator to put a layer in the holes in the motorboard as well as a layer on the insert, making sure that I had a thin layer on the lip of the insert too. After inserting the inserts into the holes, I applied pressure to the inserts every few minutes until the glue set up in about 30 minutes.
I believe that gluing the inserts did help seal the cabinet a bit, as the PR push test seems to last a bit longer.
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Will do, just got the first speaker all back together. I'm done for the night and ready for an adult bev. Hope to tackle the other speaker tomorrow. Will post pics and impressions after I get both done.
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36 minutes ago, klipschfancf4 said:
Yes, I meant to pull the terminal cup, but in order to remove it from the speaker you have to unhook the wires from each driver... looks like he used a little stand to set the cup on with wires still connected. I found it easier to remove it all the way & work comfortably on a table, works either way though.
For removing the old caps I found it easier to just grab the cap with some needle nose pliers then touch the solder gun to the spot of solder from the backside & gently pull the cap... it will break free & pull out & should leave a nice open hole to insert the new caps leads. Then any minor remaining solder will just get re-flowed with the new solder. It doesnt take much solder at all, just touch the solder to the lead as you heat it & it will flow into the hole & lock it in place, then cut off any excess leads with side cutters. That desoldering braid is mainly for larger amounts of solder where it needs to be completely removed, for small caps like these you dont really need to wick away the solder. Also try to be carefull with the gun/heat, you don't want to get the board too hot, might damage the printed circuits, just enough to melt the solder to free the caps, then same for install, just enough time to melt the solder. Maybe practice soldering the old caps or small pieces of wire to get the feel for how much heat & time is needed. it's not difficult, just take a little practice & patience.
The film caps are axial so the new axial caps will fit pretty easy into place, my tips for adding an extension with "j-hook bends" was mainly for the electrolytic one & it stands up on end. But I suppose it could lay on its side too.
Thanks for the input.
I just finished soldering the first one and I am testing it before adding some hot glue to the new caps and and remounting it to the cabinet.
All 3 drivers are working!
The worst part was desoldering the leads from the binding posts. My guess is that there is so much mass there that is was hard to get the solder to flow into the braid.
I removed all the solder from each cap joint with the braid. Sounds like I did not need to do that based on your input.
Now the tricky part is going to be getting the terminal cup back into the cabinet. If I try to put the top in first, the big inductor at the bottom does not want to go in the cabinet. Not sure how I got it out of there in the first place.
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My experience is pretty limited and I'm already struggling with desoldering the leads from the binding posts. I'm trying to use desolder braid to take up the old solder, and it is just not wicking up the braid. I've got the Weller set on 4 of 5, so pretty hot I would think. Feeling pretty dumb and frustrated at the moment.
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2 hours ago, klipschfancf4 said:
You dont need to remove the drivers, with the passive radiator removed just unhook the wires from the terminals & the complete assembly comes out & lets you work on a table or bench. Mark the wires of course so they go back to the right locations.
In the audiokarma link I posted above, the guy just pulled the terminal cup from the back of the speaker and worked on it without removing the PR. Am I seeing that right?
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Parts Express is only around 30 min away, so I may run up there after work tomorrow to get the following caps, if time allows.
47uF NPE with +/- 10% tolerance (better than the typical +/- 20%). This cap has axial leads, but should still work in the radial holes, based on what others have done. Interestingly, 2 of the 4 reviews mention using them in Forte's
http://www.parts-express.com/47uf-100v-electrolytic-non-polarized-crossover-capacitor--027-352
I will go with these for the film caps:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pmpc-15-15uf-250v-precision-audio-capacitor--027-212
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pmpc-10-10uf-250v-precision-audio-capacitor--027-210
In the audiokarma thread I linked above, looks like the guy replaced the caps without removing and disconnecting the drivers. Is this how others have done it?
I will also glue the grill pin inserts in the next few days.
The PR push test takes about 2 seconds for the woofer to return. I'll be curious to see if gluing the grill pin inserts impacts this. They pull out of the motorboard easily, so there is no way they are air-tight in their current state. I do not see any old glue on them, so looks like they were just pressure fit by the factory, which is not adequate.
Have folks found the need to reglue or reseal the interior cabinet joints? I've read that folks have done this, but not sure what drove them to do it. Could they feel air exiting the joints?
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2 hours ago, djk said:
Buy all the caps from Erse, ±5% electrolytics, ±3% Polypropylenes.
http://www.erseaudio.com/Products/NonPolarElectrolyticAll/ANP10C-05-47-0-PB
I was looking at the Erse NPE's earlier this evening but only saw ones with axial leads, whereas the crossover uses a 47 uF NPE with radial leads. However, the guy in this thread made axial leads work. http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/re-capped-my-fortes.371297/
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22 hours ago, klipschfancf4 said:
I'm far from a cap expert so I can't say either way about those stock film caps, but from what I understand the current poly caps you would use to replace them are of a much higher quality then the stock caps, & they are new. I think its worth a few bucks to get all new poly caps, like I said the film caps in my fortes were indeed bad, replacing them made the speakers sound like they should. & yes the 47uf cap would be rather large & expensive & it doesnt need the benefits of a good poly cap.
I have used the daytons & a few other similar priced brands in other speakers over the years & have been very happy with all of them. I'm sure the expensive caps are nice & they do have their place, all comes down to your budget... if you drive a 1985 mustang with 150k miles that you paid $1500 for then $2.50/qt oil is probably fine, but if you drive a new 2016 mustang with 500+ horse power that cost $50k then im sure you want the top of the line $15/qt synthetic oil. & putting that expensive oil in your old mustang wont make it run any better, just makes your wallet lighter!
Yeah, might as well also replace the 1.0 and 1.5 uF caps with Dayton Precision caps for a couple bucks each.
Do all the drivers and horns need to be removed and disconnected in order to replace caps, or is there enough slack in the wires to allow work on the crossover with wires connected to the drivers?
Also, any recos on a good radial 47uF electrolytic for the woofer circuit? Parts express only has a cheap one with +/- 20% tolerance. I'd be willing to spend a few bucks on better electrolytic with tighter tolerance and better reliability/longevity.
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4 hours ago, klipschfancf4 said:
These speakers have an electrolytic cap for teh woofer roll off part, the others are film, but due to age they can all fall out of spec. I had some forte 2 that the mid & tweets sounded like crap in one speaker & not quite as bad in the other, at first I thought it was bad diaphrams but when i tested them with a meter they were within spec. So i took a chance & replaced the caps with some daytons from parts express, hooked them all back up & BAM, night & day difference. They were a completely different speaker, full bass & crisp clear mids & tweets.
IMO, you do not need to buy the expensive caps, & many of them are physically larger & require a seperate board to mount. The improvement is from replacing the aged possibly out of spec cheap caps with new & better quality caps. For the average person with average gear, I highly doubt the human ear can tell the difference between a quality poly cap that costs a few bucks vs ones that cost 5-10x more. Granted, for very expensive top of the line speakers & gear like tubes or $5k-$10k SS amps etc then yes a more expensive cap may be in order, but for fortes & other "mid-fi" speakers & gear, you will be very happy with a decent cheaper cap like the daytons. & getting the same values as the originals will keep the sound exactly as klipsch designed, just better quality parts. The stock caps probably cost pennies each!
Interesting...I had always heard that film caps do not deteriorate significantly over time, and therefore would not need to be replaced for the purpose of bringing the speakers back to factory specs.
I'm thinking that a 47uF replacement would need to stay electrolytic, as a film cap of that value would be too large for the board. The other caps are (2) 1.5uF and (1) 1.0uF. I would think that Dayton film caps would fit on the board in the 1.5 and 1.0uF spots (if I decide to replace the film caps too).
By the way, I have used Dayton film caps in the past on a pair of Acoustic Research AR18s that I refoamed and recapped. The crossover was a single cap on the tweeter - that was an easy crossover refresh.
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17 hours ago, oldred said:
I have rebuilt at least 4 pair of Forte 1's. Yes every pair had at least 1 of the grill peg retainers that pulled out of the holes. Generally I usually remove all of them and glue them in to keep them in place. Elmer's glue. As far a the tightness of the drivers. Because Klipsch doesn't use any threaded inserts the screw holes have a tendency to strip or not tighten properly.
The standard glue and broken tooth picks in the screw hole work to make drivers seal properly on the gaskets. I generally install the passives last in case there any tooth pick pieces that fall into the cabinet. I have rarly found any passive screws holes stripped. And when they were I would do the tooth pic/glue fix and then put a piece of masking tape to over the back side of that hole (inside the cabinet) to minimize any pieces fulling into the cabinet.
George,
Thanks for the input.
Elmer's glue, huh? I thoughts that was only for paper and popsicle sticks.
Regarding the screws, I don't think any are stripped...yet. They just could not be tightened further.
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Want to expand this topic beyond crossover caps to include other possible refresh items that could bring them back to original performance.
For example, I read that the grill peg inserts and woofer/PR gaskets can leak air. Several of the grill peg inserts come out of the motorboard attached to the grill pegs. Should I consider gluing the grill peg inserts and replacing the woofer/PR gaskets?
Interestingly, all but a couple of the woofer, PR, and horn screws were very tight and could not be tightened further, although the terminal cups could be tightened a bit. Generally, I have found that both new and used speakers could use a bit of screw tightening. The only other speakers I've owned that were super tight from the start are my RF-7 II's. Perhaps Klipsch has the driver torque set optimally in Hope.
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Have not opened them up, but they guy I bought them from was the original owner and did not seem like the type that would replace the caps. In fact, I mentioned to him that the electrolytics would likely need to be replaced and I don't think he knew what I was talking about.
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Just picked up a pair of Forte (I) and am thinking that it would be good to replace any electrolytic caps in the crossovers, since they are around 30 years old.
From some internet photos and schematics, looks like there is a 47 uF electrolytic in the woofer circuit, but the rest appear to be film caps.
Does this sound right?
I know there are various levels of Forte crossover upgrades and mods out there, but I'm thinking more along the lines of bringing them back to factory specs, rather than investing in upgrades at this time.
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Got the Forte's set up this morning. Color me impressed so far! They make me want to push the volume because they sound so clean and balanced.
They are in a "bad" room - the large, unfinished portion of our basement where we have exercise equipment, storage, etc.
They are on 31" platforms that I built when I got the JBL's mentioned above. The platforms put the JBL tweeters at ear level when I'm standing. The Forte's tweeters are about 8" below my ears when standing. I may add around 8" to the platforms if the Forte's end up displacing the JBL's.
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I picked up the pair of Forte's this evening. They are in good working order. Paid $425, but the guy included some 80's electronics (which I have no use for) - an Onkyo Pro Logic receiver, Sony CD changer, and Sony tape deck. Maybe I can get around $40-50 for the electronics, which would make the investment around $380.
They guy was obviously stand-up and said that 2 other guys were interested, so I jumped on them. He listed them yesterday.
They are black and have some scratches and nicks - nothing major. Grills are nice and there are no dents in the woofer and PR dust caps.
So, I'm wondering if folks have recos for touching up the scratches. I know a sharpie will do ok, but wondering if there is a better option. I'll see if a hardware store has a black stain stick, or something of the like.
I'll test these in the unfinished portion of our basement, where I am currently running JBL LS80's, which retailed for $3000/pair in 2008, but sold for $1000/pair recently on Amazon, which is when I snagged a pair.
Curious about how folks feel about the Forte's vs. RF-7 II (which I also own). In today's dollars, Forte's would be around $2,400/pair, so significantly less than RF-7 II retail price.
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OK, thanks.
Might take a look at a pair today, although I need more speakers like I need a hole in the head.
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Forte (I) crossover caps and other refresh items
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Yeah, the Forte I has the binding posts coming through the board, so they have to be desoldered before you can separate the board and cup. Pics of Forte II crossovers I've seen do not have the binding posts coming through the board.