Speedy6963
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Posts posted by Speedy6963
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14 hours ago, Chris A said:
..and more acoustic lobing due to the vertical separation of the midrange driver axis from the tweeter axis by more than a quarter wavelength at the crossover interference band...i.e., all 3-way loudspeakers have this issue (except of course multiple entry horn designs). This lobing is the most audible due to the frequency band that you're talking about, and the misalignment usually the greatest due to the very short wavelengths involved.
I think that 3-way loudspeaker designs are simply expedient to economics. Personally I run 2-way Jubilees with TAD TD-4002 drivers. I've never heard anything that could touch the "wide open and effortless" of this configuration. YMMV.
Chris
I also run 2 way Klipschorn's using TAD TD-2002 from 450-24,000hz
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58 minutes ago, Md5150 said:
To each there own. I personally wouldn't buy a pre amp that doesn't have tone controls.
If you need tone controls you have speakers that are not accurate
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2 hours ago, rebuy said:
Anyone can tinker--I have 10 speakers available for my use.
3 Klipsch Towers
3 Polk Towers
4 Polk Bookies
Any one of these can sound crappy with the wrong settings.
Any system I put together can sound great with attention to
setting in the electronics.
Most of the time a system sounds bad--if quality products are used.
it's operator error and bad settings--not knowing how to use equipment.
Tone controls are the MOST abused item in the hifi world !
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1 minute ago, mustang_flht said:
You put resistors in L pad on the tweeter, as we talked about on the other post?
Nope, made it a 2 way speaker.
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1 hour ago, Deang said:
No one else is complaining, you are the first.
Your measurements only reflect what's going on in your room. From a designer's perspective -- you have a room problem. Your measurements tell us more about your room than they do the speaker -- which was tested ad-nauseum using an anechoic chamber. Those are the plots you need to see if you want to know what the loudspeaker is doing.
I am not the first, maybe the first you have heard of, it is not the room, i have many other speakers none others do this.
It is the speaker, the tweeter was about 5db louder and I have fixed it.
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1 hour ago, jjptkd said:
Has there been any frequency response charts published by Klipsch for the new forte III or RF-7 III? It would be interesting to see this 5db "hot" tweeter on paper from an official source.
You think I would fake measurements ???
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1 hour ago, Deang said:
Roy got everything right with the Forte III - leave them the hell alone.
they did good with the forte 3, not perfect
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8 hours ago, ODS123 said:
The OP said in a previous post that the forte was fatiguing - that it sounded too bright. Perhaps it would've been helpful in understanding what he meant if he told us what recordings, volume level, and how long it took for the fatigue to set in. Just wanting to know if he based these conclusions on music that was bright to begin with. I have been a lot around a lot of live music in my life and a lot of live music is harsh sounding; Almost instantly fatiguing when heard from too close or too loud. That music heard on an accurate hi-fi rig would also sound harsh and fatiguing
when the tweeter is outputing over 5db more than the mid, that is bright !
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2 hours ago, garyrc said:
In the older Heritage, it was used out to 6K. I believe I have seen graphs in which it goes beyond 10K, but not very well, and I seem to recall a glitch at about 9K.
IMO, the K-77( orig, "M", "F" "D") sometimes gets the blame for what the K55 and K400/K401 are doing.
I think the change in crossover frequency from 6K to 4.5K, and the steep slope crossover are definite improvements.
The mid in the forte 3 was originally designed to play to 20khz (it was the tweeter in some of klipsch's cinema speakers) , none of the other heritage will ....
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3 hours ago, YK Thom said:
Why not just buy a two way initially?
who makes a good 2 way in this format ?
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7 minutes ago, bkevind said:
Is this bypassing the tweeter then?
disabling tweeter in crossover, modifying mid crossover bypassing the low pass portion and repurposing a 1uf cap to reshape the high freq response some.
about 5 inches of wire and a little soldering is all that is needed, took me about 20 minutes to do the 1st one
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2 minutes ago, DizRotus said:
Warranty voided.
also I had to get nosey and find that class D thread you are in and I purchased a ti eval board to play with , lol
I have way more amps than I need around here, tube, a/b, D at least a couple dozen
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1 minute ago, DizRotus said:
Warranty voided.
If its fully functional as new, then no warranty needed, since I will not blow drivers like a 15 year old :-)
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1 hour ago, jjptkd said:
It would be interesting to see the measurements, do you have a way to measure distortion as well? I was actually wondering about that when I seen the driver looks like the RF-7 II driver which is also a 2-way but the crossover point is significantly higher at around 2200hz if I remember correctly.
it is a different driver than the RF7 II, likely same supplier though.....
I can measure distortion using REW
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3 hours ago, ODS123 said:
you're a brave man Speedy to do all that to your FIII's!
You say "ZERO fatigue" but what does that mean and why is that your goal?? ..Are you saying zero fatigue at any volume, any length of listening session and any kind of music/ instruments?
To my thinking, listening fatigue is not necessarily an indication that something is wrong. Some instruments and some voices, when heard live and un-amplified, WILL start to fatigue after awhile. So these same instruments and voices played at live volumes on an accurate hi-fi rig will also start to fatigue. ..If you can't provoke listening fatigue EVER on a hifi rig then I would think the system is a bit soft and dull - meaning you're losing some of the music all of the time.
Personally, I alway choose integrated amplifiers w/ tone controls to deal w/ occasional listening fatigue. ..A slight leftward twist of the treble control and a bright recording is suddenly tolerable..
no bravery required, it is a zero cost and fully reversible modification ..... :-)
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I did some research and Klipsch use the same horn and driver that they use in the Forte III as the midrange as the mid/tweeter out to 20khz on their cinema surround model KPT-1260H
http://assets.klipsch.com/product-specsheets/KPT-1260H-Data-Sheet-v02.pdf
The conversion consists of 3 changes to the crossover, no parts required and results in VERY flat response of the mid from 650 out to about 19khz
Much better imaging, ZERO fatigue , 100% win win !
If there is interest I will post my changes and measurements.
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12 hours ago, jjptkd said:
Agree, would love to see some close ups of the mid horn and driver myself, looks a lot like the RF-7 II driver
Here is the mid driver
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5 hours ago, richieb said:
Just to prove I'm not seeing things are those your New F3's ripped apart? As I believe they are, I have no comments that would be considered proper. Ohh Myy Gawd ----
I ripped apart my NEW khorns last year and changed horns and driver's and crossovers !!
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2 hours ago, Peter P. said:
Buy one.
I own multiple eq's and am not using one on this system
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10 minutes ago, Grizzog said:
Before changing the crossovers, have you placed them on the ground like they were intended? Having them on those blocks will destroy your bass response and change the balance of the speaker. The tweeter may be a bit hot because of the fact that they are a lower than ear height when positioned as intended. Perhaps lifting that tweeter up higher is causing the highs to be too much.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
had them up, had them down, its not room or other gear since all other speakers are fine.
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I have removed the crossover and drawn out the schematic, as suspected there is a lot of attenuation on the mid , but no attenuation on the tweeter in the crossover. Woofer is crossed at 18db/octave, mid is 12db/octave and tweeter is also 18db/octave .
Inductor values might not be correct, meter is junk..
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15 hours ago, jjptkd said:
I've noticed historically similar issues when playing my Chorus II's at louder than normal volumes. What I have done in the past is point the speakers straight forward if I'm planning on "energizing" the whole room with loud music, less "in your face" brightness, otherwise at normal, lower listening levels I have the speakers aimed right at me in the listening position. I wouldn't give up yet on them, lots of things to try to get this sorted out. Congrats by the way on the new speakers!
Im not giving up on them, I see it as a challenge !
I will fix the crossover to make them flatter and have less of that Klipsch in your face curve :-)
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5 hours ago, Schu said:
I am wondering if OP is sitting very near or on axis.
sitting 18 feet away in room about 20x30 feet
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17 hours ago, wvu80 said:
One of the problems I see right off the bat is you used the emotionally charged word "fatigue." That's a negative subjective conclusion, one that is hard for others to quantify. I applaud you for using charts and graphs to support your conclusion but not all of us read charts and graphs. I would rather hear you describe if a middle C on the piano is accurate, or if there is sibilance in female voice. That would help me understand what you are hearing.
I know you only stuffed polyfil into the tweeter as an experiment, but surely there are other things you can do to test taming the highs.
What electronics are you using? If you have a computer try using the EQ software. If a receiver it will have tone controls. If an AVR depending on the model it will have a large array of listening modes and room correction software. You might also try to toe-in or toe-out your speakers to find a comfortable sweet spot. You could try running your speakers with the grills on which could help to attenuate the highs.
You also might want to consider you are comparing you speakers to whatever else you are used to listening to. Perhaps the old speakers were tame in the highs and the Forte is bright by comparison. I haven't heard them so I sure don't know.
If you'll invite me over I'd be happy to listen with you and give you a better opinion.
No eq on this setup, 1970's pioneer turntable, pioneer reel to reel and then a 845 single ended triode amp.
I have MANY speakers from heresy's to cornwalls and Khorns and new onkyo's https://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=D-77NE&class=Speaker and ascend sierra 2 http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM2/srm2.html and KEF Q100 and KEF Q350 and KEF R900 and VINTAGE pioneer HPM100's and pioneer DSS-7 ( berylium tweeter, boron mid's ) and more.... Only speakers to ever fatigue my ears this way are these Forte III and my Klipsch Horns when new ( I have since completely change the horns and crossover and no more problem )
From experience with much different hardware any hump in the response in the 7k-10k area can make speakers fatiguing ...
I just hooked up the sierra 2's next to the forte's and they sound great ! But they dont get very loud with the 15 watts that are available ( only 86db eff. )
Forte III listening fatigue
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
I FIXED MY LISTENING FATIGUE !!!