ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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3 hours ago, DizRotus said:
Couldn’t agree more. At a neighbor’s BBQ, his Sonos speaker sounded great. My mother-in-law’s Bose Wave Radio CD player was perfect for her in her small living room. At times, my DIY boom box with Radio Shack 40-1197 (FE 103) drivers sounds unbeatable, especially outdoors.
I’d rather listen to good music on a clock radio than a bad recording of crappy music on a superb system.
Totally agree.. ...My grand parents got as much joy from music as anyone I know and they listened to it on the least expensive Realistic Carinette all-in-one system. One speaker was at ear level, the other on the floor.
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16 hours ago, Edgar said:
Do you actually think that I am, and everybody in that group is, that gullible? I can assure you that opinions were well-aired during the discussions. Nobody was told "what to praise".
Positive or negative, good or bad; these are opinions. They don't need your stamp of approval, or anyone else's.
I did not say or suggest that Roy TOLD people what to praise. I AM saying that if someone who is regarded as an authority (such as Ray) say's something like "listen to how much tighter the bass is" (just a possible example) that it is predictable that people will hear tighter bass. This does not make you gullible, it makes you human. This is why when patients participate in clinical trial they are (generally) NOT told whether they are being given the control or study medication.
And I'm not suggesting anyone needs my stamp of approval. I AM suggesting to those who visit this website (or other such) to research a purchase (such as IV CW or Heresy's) that they consider the environment in which others' observations were made. ..That there is a gross lack of validity testing in MUCH of what you read here AND other audio websites. That one should ALWAYS consider the context.
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1 hour ago, Edgar said:
You show an obvious bias against opinion.
This is NOT true. ..And I haven't made ANY mention of measurements in this thread.
I DO want to hear peoples' opinions BUT find them be much much more valuable when efforts are made to minimize bias. And as I see it, a group of people being invited to Klipsch HQ, and then told what to listen for are NOT apt to offer anything but their approval that "Yes! ..That speaker (v. IV) does sound better. And as an engineer, I'm surprised you don't see my point. ..I'm not an engineer (I work in Pharma sales) but I am surrounded by them in my personal life and ALL of them agree with my belief that audio is bereft of any sensible bias controlling or validity testing.
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3 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:
I think it would be much more helpful if you listen to the Cornwall lV then come back to discuss my observations and biases versus yours if you still feel the need.
Until then I believe we are just wasting each other’s time.
Thanks,
miketn
It's a shame you feel this way. I do think think those who read your comparative remarks about the III v. IV would find your answers to my questions to be helpful. ..And I'm not saying it's not a fine speaker, by the way.
By and By, I find it so disappointing that people don't approach this hobby with greater scientific curiosity, which would included an interest in reducing bias, validity testing, etc..
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21 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
Sounds like a problem for the legendary ABX box!! BUT even when matched to 0.1 db STANDARD for level, you will CLEARLY differentiate different speaker VOICING so easily, even before the first trial is over. So NO.
I have no idea what you're saying here, please expand. Volume matching was just ONE issue I raised - what about the others? ..Not the least of which is how being invited to Klipsch HQ is going to predispose someone to praise what they hear. Do you not agree?
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42 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:
You have never heard the Cornwall lV and yet you claim any differences reported as “hyperbole” and “subtle”...!
To be clear, I think MOST claims about improvements from one generation of speaker to another end up being more subtle than not. I'm merely suggesting that people not be overly impressed with anecdotal, and possibly bias-laden, accounts.
Anyway, I think it would be helpful if you answered my questions as it would provide context and possibly help substantiate your observations about the IV.
Thank you.
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1 hour ago, mikebse2a3 said:
IMHO it’s not “subtle” ... 🙂
Curious to know... When you compared the III's to the IV's:
Did Roy tell you what was improved on the IV?
- If Yes, then listeners are predisposed to hearing the differences AND considering them to be improvements - BIAS!
Were they carefully volume matched?
- If no, then the louder speaker is likely to be perceived as more open, dynamic, basically "better". - BIAS!
Did you know which you were hearing at any given time? ..Was this a blinded or sighted comparison?
- If "sighted" there would be a strong tendency to pick Roy's version IV as sounding better. Afterall, you were his invited guest - would be kinda hard to say "nope, not hearing a difference." Kinda like a friend who says, "isn't my baby the most precious you've ever seen?" Plus, having been invited to preview the speakers confers a bit of prestige and pride on those invited. ..I see lot's of opportunity for confirmation bias here. BIAS!
Did everyone hear everyone else's comments and observations?
- If yes, then much opportunity for each persons opinion to be affected by the opinions expressed by the others. Would be better if everyone just took notes on what they thought was better about them - then shared (or better, pass them to someone else to be read). BIAS!
Sorry, but I find any listening comparison where there isn't a good-faithed effort to control biases to be rather uncompelling.
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1 hour ago, angelaudio said:
All I'm saying is that a lot of what we are told on youtube and the internet is parroted and just because a lot of enthusiasts repeat it, doesn't mean it's all true. Why compare them? Because that's what we all do, compare things. Why not? That's part of the fun, I want Klipsch to succeed because IMO they make the best damn speakers I've heard for what I enjoy listening to but I try to avoid falling into the traps of these comments where enthusiasts don't put sh.......... into proper context. Anyway, I didn't mean to rain on the IV parade. I'm going to take the second response's advice and make an acoustic corner of some type using an artificial wall I can put in and out. Most importantly than anything, just enjoy listening to jazz. Thank you all for your thoughts and feedback, I know I have a lot to learn.
I think what you're saying makes sense. ..And as the owner of Cornwall III's, who has been reading lot's of similar hyperbole about how "the Cornwall IV's crush the III's! (by probably the same group of posters) I can relate to your comments. ..While I haven't had the occasion to hear the Cornwall IV's, let alone compare them side-by-side with the III's, I'm quite certain if I got the chance, the difference would be FAR more subtle than what people here would have you believe. After all, they were designed, engineered, and manufactured with the same guiding principles - so why would there be a night & day difference between them?
When I bought my previous 2 speakers - Vandersteen 3A Sigs, and Paradigm S8 v2's, I had the occasion to compare them directly with their predecessors AND they too had their fanboys who claimed that they new model absolutely trounced the outgoing. What did I find?? ..In blinded tests it was VERY difficult telling them apart. ..And even when I succeeded, it wasn't entirely clear which sounded MORE like music. ..Just slightly different. ..And so I bet it goes with the version IV Cornwall And Heresy. ..That the differences are much more subtle than what you read here
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And to add to Andrew Robinson's comments above, I'll repeat that Bob Crites, noted Klipsch authority and manufacturer of heralded upgrades (including drivers) also says Break-in, beyond an hour for large drivers, is BS. ..Of course it is.
If a manufacturer knew their speakers sounded better after 30 hours of play, then they would make 30 hours of play part of the production process.
And be doubly skeptical of anyone claiming electronic components or (sigh) cable have a break-in period.
People offering mere anecdotal accounts of "I didn't think I'd hear a difference, but then I did..." are not very convincing. ...There can be a myriad of reasons why speakers or other components "sound" different from day to day, including one's mood, sinus congestion (gross), environmental noise, etc... But breakin? ..Sorry, but not so, IHMO.
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To test the "break-in" hypothesis I suggest doing the following:
After unboxing a new pair of speakers, let ONE speaker play through the night. This can be easily accomplished using the balance control. ..Come morning, play a song in MONO with both speakers set side-by-side and switch b/w them using the balance control. Do you hear a difference???
I did this with Spica TC-50's, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A Sigs, and finally Paradigm S8 v2s. ..All were purchased new. ..Neither I, nor ANYONE in my family could hear one IOTA of difference b/w the speakers. Speaker break-in is a myth. Manufactures (some, not all) allow it to persist b/c it helps to mitigate returns from people who aren't bowled over by how their brand new speakers sound. "Don't do any critical listening for 50 hours" serves a purpose for manufacturers. ..They know that after that period of time your ears will have adjusted to your new speakers and the impulse to return them will have passed. And you'll probably have re-read the great reviews that led you to the purchase in the first place and have gone to web forums such as this where people will reassure you that they are much better than what you had.
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I don't doubt what you're saying. Unfortunately, when a new iteration comes out it's inevitable that some will claim HUGE improvements based on marketing claims, etc.. In reality, there's not a great deal known now that wasn't known when the V2's came out. ..I wouldn't be surprised that when you actually set them side by side, the differences are suddenly quite subtle.
As for break-in. ..I wouldn't count on it. THere's no way it takes 40 hours for speakers to break in. Bob Crites, who manufacturers replacement parts (incl. drivers, crossovers, etc..) and is regarded/ respected as an authority on all-things Klipsch, said that the most it takes for drivers to break is about an hour. 40 hours is totally redic.
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On 3/20/2020 at 11:26 AM, rplace said:
That is super nice, well done. I've got 12 bins of these and still not near enough. It is handy to flip through like a record store.
Very cool! wouldn't work in my particular room, but a great solution for bigger rooms. ...I love being able to flip through forward facing records rather than straining to read spines.
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Cornwall has companion to share the corner with.
From Prathermade, my new Bedford LP storage unit. It’s handmade and took about 8wks from order to arrival. Holds about 200 records. $800. Note that the copper rails perfectly match the Klipsch insignia on the speaker.
Other than being a happy customer I have no association with the company. Just wanted to give them a shout out.
https://www.prathermade.com/shop
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Geez... stop it with all the technical jargon! ..Way over my head!
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On 10/2/2019 at 2:30 PM, tipatina said:
I may have a good deal on a pair of like new Cornwall III. My current speakers are Vandy 3A Sig. My Bryston 4B SST works well with these. I saw a q/a on the Crutchfield site under the Cornwall III listing where a customer with a 200 wpc amp is advised that 200/ch is too high. This doesnt seem right for normal listening volumes but the Cornwall IIIs cease to be a good deal for me if I’m going to need to replace my amp too.
Quite a coincidence... I had Vandersteen 3A Sigs driven by a Bryston 3bsst for about 5 years. I used a Bryston BP25 pre-amp.
Though they sound great, your Vandersteens are quite inefficient, so require a very powerful amp. ..And because of their 1st Order Cross-over design, they are also a bit fragile. A bit too much power can easily result in a blown driver. For this reason, I was always reluctant to really crank them which is something I'd like to periodically do with my 2-channel system.
I now have Cornwall III's and absolutely love them. I use a McIntosh MA6600 to drive them. I love my mac b/c of it's build quality, aesthetics, it has tone controls, a mono switch, and the ability to volume match all the input levels. But the 200 watts/ channel my amp produces is wayyyy more than necessary. If my wattage meters hit 20 watts, the volume is so loud as to risk hearing damage and irritate my neighbors across my yard!. ..My usual loud setting is around 4 watts. So, keep the Bryston if you want, but know for certain that you do NOT need all that power. Heck, Brystons lowest power amp would be overkill.
Enjoy the Cornwalls - you won't regret the switch!
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30 minutes ago, DizRotus said:
Even with the low price and the convenience of CNC cut MDF, the PE Dayton MKBoom will include some BB. PE would have me trust wood screws into the MDF to secure the drivers, the handle, and the feet. I’d sooner trust double faced tape. Instead, I glued hardwood dowel plugs to each driver screw location and BB squares to the insides of the top, bottom, and back where the handle and feet attach. I know, the added plugs and squares decrease the internal volume, which throws of PE’s precise calculations; so sue me.
Which would you trust to hold a screw, 13-ply BB or compressed sawdust? Nonetheless, I trust Klipsch to make new Cornwalls, as well as their other fine products, from MDF in such ways as to guarantee structural integrity. Just don’t waste your breath trying to convince me that MDF was chosen for “sonic superiority.”
If money were no object and I wanted the best sounding Cornwalls, the new Cornwall IV would be my choice. Nonetheless, sonic superiority exists despite MDF not because of it.
Not convinced. 99% of wood speaker cabinets made by top speaker companies are made with MDF, and that includes speakers that are so expensive that the incremental cost of using BB would be inconsequential. Vandersteen, KEF, Dynaudio, Legacy, PSB, Paradigm, etc. etc.. are made w/ MDF. As are the vast majority of Klipsch speakers that are NOT intended for installation in amusement parks, transportation stations, etc.. And even those speakers generally have MDF motorboards.
Like I said, if MDF is such garbage, why are you all hanging out on the website of a brand that uses this material extensively throughout it's product lineup? ..Maybe form your own "DIY w/BBP" Forum outside of Klipsch.com.?
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2 hours ago, Dave A said:
You inspire me to create some documented experiments so look for some screen captures here soon. Being as that I am a hands on guy I know just what to do and how to do it. Down side is that there is not one piece of MDF here but for you I can spend the big bucks and get one. These will be engineer approved experiments but not MBA approved. What type of MDF do you want me to use? I want to get the very best grade and I know you can tell me what that is. I will have Baltic Birch for my side of things and will get whatever MDF you wish for your side of things.
Dave,Don’t you feel it’s bad form to endlessly trash MDF when nearly ALL of Klipsch‘s current speakers are made entirely or in part with this material? I mean, if you feel their present day speakers are such junk, then why spend so much time here?
...just sayin’
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23 hours ago, DizRotus said:
PWK hated MDF and insisted on Baltic birch plywood (BBP) in his speakers. He told me this personally as he compared the BBP construction of the Khorn to the MDF construction of the Speakerlab knockoff. It’s interesting that Speakerlab switched to multi-plywood in the later years of production.
Well.... It appears SpeakerLab has switched back. Here they comment on their "locally sourced, formaldehyde-free MDF" in their Behind The Scenes Video. Which implies that PWK might have a different opinion on MDF today as well. ..I believe it is even used in the new Klipschorn.
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1 hour ago, HDBRbuilder said:
JIM, Please find a way to delete all of the argument about materials used from this thread! It has nothing to do with the museum, OK? Thanks!
Andy
This thread is in the 2-Channel Home Audio section. And I don’t see why discussing materials is irrelevant to the topic. The title of the thread is "what are the best year model(s) cornwalls?" As a switch was made from plywood to MDF - from ver 2 to 3, I believe - I think my comments are germane. And if not, they certainly are not offensive. You can alway exercise your right to not participate in the thread.
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15 minutes ago, Dave A said:
There is an old saying about salesmen are the best customers for slick sales presentations whether the product is worthwhile or not. They appreciate a great sales pitch. On the other hand you have people who deal with the fallout of inferior material choices made by these marketing MBA people as they force the engineers to make do with crummy raw goods. I do just love watching you defend that stuff though and tell me more. See here is the difference. We come up with why we don't like it and give examples as people who rebuild, build and restore. You on the other hand as a plug and play type trot out they all do it now like that means an actual improvement. There is a difference between hands on and repeating sales literature.
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Your distain for people with MBA’s is curious. Do you feel this way about others with advanced degrees? Like doctors, engineers, scientists etc.? We live in a weird time when people with an extensive education are denigrated.And just to be clear it’s not that I dislike plywood 🙂 Its that I dislike it when people make blanket statements, like “MDF is garbage”. Because such a statement impugns the expertise of the great majority of speaker designers who feel MDF is the equal or perhaps better material. Designers like all of those that I listed earlier in the thread. Plus, you discribe a durability issue with MDF that neither I nor any one I know has ever experienced. Which would include dozens and dozens and dozens of speakers.
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7 hours ago, Dave A said:
Alright I will bite. Why is this interesting to you?
Because it undermines yours and HDR's narrative that MDF is chosen because of cost rather than engineering considerations, including sonic qualities.
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2 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:
Lesson 1: DROP TESTS on box-type loudspeaker cabinets are conducted for a number of reasons, ONE of the MOST IMPORTANT REASONS is to test the bonding of the adhesives used in the construction of them and to determine if it is truly bonding well at points of panel joints. It can also be used to determine the superiority of different joinery types in order to make final production changes. The entire concept is to have the box joints come apart, for one reason or another, and to note at what height of drop it finally did so. At this point the strength of the box-build can be used for comparison purposes. As for bonding strength of the adhesives used at the now-broken joints, the breaks are analyzed to determine how well one panel bonded with its adhesive to another. If the break is a clean break, then the bonding was not very good. OTOH, if part of one panel is still stuck to the other panel, then the adhesive was able to make it into the fibers of both panels, prior to the adhesive completely curing....and a much better adhesive bond had been achieved with that particular adhesive and panel material type. SInce the adhesive bonding ability is the goal, it can be compared to other adhesives and or other panel materials and the results of their drop tests. This allows for the ideal material to adhesive combinations to be determined. But, it also allows for determinations of which combinations still bonds well at a lower production cost for adhesives and/or panel materials. Many other things can be determined, but these are considered two of the most important things gleaned from drop tests.
Well I guess every speaker I've ever owned had sufficient adhesive integrity to pass the drop test because not a SINGLE one ever came apart after years and years of ownership. ..And EVERY one was made from MDF. ..Come to think of it, I don't have a single friend who owns an MDF speaker that spontaneously came apart, or suffered water damage for that matter. ..And like me, most have had kept speakers for many many years.
My advice to speaker desginers/makers: Use whichever material makes for a better sounding speaker. ..Leave it to the owner to keep the speaker safe from falls or water damage; you know, like the way one treats EVERY appliance in their home. We don't pick our turntables, amplifiers, cd players or flat-screen TV's based on which can best hold up after being dropped, I don't see why we should assess speakers differently.
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2 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:
IOW, I AM NOT TELLING YOU what YOU SHOULD DO...so do as YOU PLEASE...just don't attempt to enlighten me on what I already have lots of experience in doing unless you really know something I need to know. Your tirade has NOT shown me that! All I see is your OPINIONS and an attempt to prove it with salesmanship techniques represented as facts to support your OPINION.
..Drop tests also show that MDF sucks...especially in corner or edge drop tests! MDF is almost impossible to repair, too! If MDF is so good, then why isn't it used much in home construction?? Because it has no STRENGTH on its own! It cannot bear loads!
SO, do as you want to do...and stop with the continual tirade here to ME! You will never convince me of its "superiority" as a wood-working material!
HDR, I'm not trying to convince you what to do. And It's not for your benefit that I persist in my defense of MDF as at least an equal and perhaps a BETTER material for speakers.
As for drop tests... For goodness sake, I don't make my component choices based on what will best endure abuse or accidents. ..As I've pointed out time and again, over the past 30 years I've had speakers from Boston Acoustics, Polk, Spica, KEF, PSB, Vandersteen, Paradigm, and now Klipsch and precisely NONE OF THEM has ever been dropped, or the unfortunate victim of an in-house water catastrophe. And every one was made from MDF - just like pretty much EVERY wood speaker these days. Speakers are not houses.
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2 hours ago, Dave A said:
" Klipsch Pro Series speakers have MDF baffles. "
I don't know about that since the literature you love to quote talks about motorboards not baffles. Baffles are little wood thingies that go inside some of the speaker cabinets.
https://www.svsound.com/blogs/glossary/speaker-baffle
"A speaker baffle is the front face of the a speaker...and is often an under-rated aspect of speaker engineering."
FWIW, I've only seen the term "motorboard" used by Klipsch. ..Nonetheless, they are the same. And the fact that Klipsch choses MDF for this "under-rated aspect of speaker engineering" for nearly ALL of their currently available speakers is interesting to me.
Klipsch Heresy IV vs Heresy II
in 2-Channel Home Audio
Posted
I am sorry you see those two statements as having the same meaning. ..They do not.