ODS123

And not to put too fine a point on it I'd add "and on the same day." Because our hearing changes day to day based on allergies, colds, recent exposure to loud noises and so and so on. No, these changes might not be huge but when you're talking about hearing faint nuances that aren't measurable, I'd wager it's enough. Which is why the idea that one must hear an amp for days and days or weeks and weeks before being able to truly distinguish from another is so hard to believe.

Well, as you opine on that I think I can safely say to beginners that I’ve proved my point... That IF differences between amplifiers exist they are apt to be soooooo small that you have unclaimed $10k awards; dozens of people on websites endless debating their existence and importance; and manufacturers who never provide ANY outcome data from listening trials. So, the moral of the story as I see it: Spend most of your money on speakers... But be sure to leave enough left over for an amplifier that has the build/feel you want, the features you want (like tone controls, ability to drive a 2nd pair of speakers, mono switch, auto-on,etc.. whatever matters to you) and has enough power to drive your speakers to the levels you desire without clipping. Beyond that, set aside concerns that you’re missing out on some faint indescribable, immeasurable audio magic, because chances are — you’re not.

Why shouldn't he be setting the record straight? It's true NO ONE is saying all amplifiers sound the same. That would be ridiculous b/c it's always possible someone's amplifier is either not working properly, driven to clipping, or was engineered to roll-off at a certain frequency. That's why the "engineered to be linear and operating within it's design limits" or whatever.. matters. So no, don't stop saying it. ...It makes it easier for you to attack the claim, but it's not what is being said.

Your hostility certainly doesn't reflect well on you.

And this has an unintended consequence. ..A couple who enters an audio store with the intention of buying a pair of nice floor-standing speakers and something to power them sees the garden hose thick speaker cables and lifters and is met by a Salesperson who tells them "you should allocate 30% of your spending on interconnects and cabling" may well end deciding , "Well, this ain't for us!" and leave with nothing and instead go on to Amazon to order a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos set-up.

Agreed. ..My grandparents enjoyed music as much or more than anyone I know and listened to it on an all-in-one compact system (philco, I believe?) set on the floor of their living room. And both wore hearing aids to boot.

I've been away from this thread for a few days.... After catching back up it seems like what a beginner might glean from this is buy an amp that is engineered to be linear while driving your speakers to desired levels AND buy an external equalizer to adjust to taste. These boutiquey amps that some people gravitate to aren't doing anything magical. They are simply affecting the signal in a manner that they find preferable. ..No different than an equalizer. ..Or, for those not wanting the extra clutter and fuss. ..Tone controls may suffice. So...... pretty much what I've been saying all along about how beginners might approach buying their gear. Remember, most people buying hifi are NOT looking for a hobby or a lifestyle, they're looking for a way to fill a room with music.

Beautiful indeed! Question: is that a Prathermade LP rack in the other room? https://www.prathermade.com Do you like it?

sheesh, again the hostility.... No, I didn't give my wife a list of features I wanted, she simply let me pick it out. My recommendation to beginners was to get an integrated or AVR that can drive their speakers to desired levels without strain and has the feature set they want. The feature set they want and are willing to pay for will be different than mine. My first component was an NAD 7250PE integrated amplifier. I used it for 12 years until it conked out. It was terrific. It had a balance control, tone controls and, yes, a mono switch. I grew to appreciate all of them. Today, If I was younger and looking for an amp and didn't have much music dating back to the early days of stereo, I probably wouldn't care much about a mono switch. My oldest son keeps asking for integrated amp recommendations and I exclude mono switch b/c he would never use it. As for the wattage meters and input leveling they are definitely luxuries, I went for years without them. At no point did I suggest to beginners that they were essential features. ..And yes, the wattage meters were indeed helpful when driving my far less efficient Paradigm S8's, but not essential. As for tone controls and balance control - yes, I would recommend them to everyone, but the choice of course is theirs. ..And they can be found on many affordable integrateds and nearly all AVRs.. And you are incorrect, several Luxman and Accuphase integrated amps have meters, and a mono switch (on the remote of the Luxman). ..Not sure about input leveling.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. Are you making an issue of the fact that at times I said "modern s/s" amps? Well, maybe, but in other references to this challenge I also mentioned tube amps qualified so long as they made his criteria. ..Move on to another subject Tiz. You're big "gotcha!" isn't much of one. And my Corny's say "Thanks!"

Egads, no! ..thankfully. You see even though the vast majority of speakers these days - including some very very expensive ones - are made with MDF, some people here have denigrated my CWIIIs because, they argued, the best Klipsch's are always made from glorious 7-ply birch. So strong were their opinions on the matter that they warned my speakers would not hold up over time even though they weren't engineered to be dragged from rock gig to rock gig, hung in amusement parks, or bus/train stations, like Klipsch's Pro Series were.. ..So I'm now trying to appreciate each and every day with them because one never knows how long they'll hold up. I think the odds are in my favor though because every speaker I've ever had was made from MDF, each lasting years and years , AND a quick look at Audiogon one will find plenty of 30 year old speakers made from MDF that look perfect. So I'm optimistic.

From: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/rcrules.htm 7. All amps must be brand name, standard production, linear voltage amplifiers. This does not exclude high current amps. Amps can not be modified and must meet factory specs. They must be "car audio amplifiers designed to be powered from a car's electrical system.". See NOTE 1 below. NOTE 1 (from conditions 2 & 7) This test mentions 12v and "car" amps only. The test originally began with home/studio type amps and was revised in 1994 for the car audio industry. This version dated 2005 is again expanded to include 120 Volt home/studio/commercial type amps. The "modern" stipulation - which didn't originate with me - is from other summaries of the test found on the web. If I can find one, I will. However, I'm not sure how this undermines anything!. If anything, it looks like R. Clarks criteria may be even looser - so use that if it suits you! That said, one can infer from what's stated above that if the test originated in 1994 and the rules required that the amps be std. production, etc.. that amps 10 or 15 years old at the time probably met the "modern" criteria. Ok? Now, will you answer the question I posed to you, Dave and Dean?

( Tizman, thanks!) I feel guilty that an important day passed 27 days ago without being acknowledged, my MDF edition Cornwall III’s first birthday! I am very grateful that they managed to keep their structural integrity despite being moved around countless times to optimize their sound. Also, though we have taken the precaution to add 2 dehumidifiers to the room, there was still the ever present risk that moisture would intrude past the veneering and cause the speakers to swell to horrifying proportions. Thankfully with prayers and luck, this didn’t happen! ..So here they are today, enjoying some cake and filling our house with the forever awesome "Talking heads: Stop Making Sense." Happy belated birthday Corny’s!! (seen here enjoying some birthday cake).

Meanwhile, maybe Diz, Dean or Dave (or anyone of course) would care to answer the above? I'm convinced that our hobby is hurt by it's lack of validity controls. Customers encountering this sort of interaction are more apt to just give up on buying a dedicated audio system and instead gravitate to all-in-one table top or sonos-like streaming systems. Not that those are bad - they're not - but they will not keep this hobby alive.

It seems Diz, Dean and Dave are hellbent on getting this thread shut down. I seem to have a struck a nerve with you three. Guys, I'll reply to your posts so long as their pertinent. It's not a problem if they're snide, snarky or even nasty, so long as their relevent. Tiz.. From Richard Clark's website. There's a great deal of Q&A from RC to critics such as yourself. I suggest you go to the website and read for yourself before further hectoring me on this point. Amplifier Comparison Test Conditions 1. Amplifier gain controls - of both channels - are matched to within +- .05 dB. 2. Speaker wires on both amps are properly wired with respect to polarity. (+ and -) 3. That neither amp has signal phase inversion. If so correction will be made in #2 above. 4. That neither amp is loaded beyond its rated impedance. 5. That all amplifiers with signal processors have those features turned off. This includes bass boost circuits, filters, etc. If frequency tailoring circuits cannot be completely bypassed an equalizer will be inserted in the signal path of one of the amps (only one and the listener can decide which) to compensate for the difference. Compensation will also be made for input and output loading that affects frequency response. Since we are only listening for differences in the sonic signature of circuit topology, the addition of an EQ in only one amps signal path should make the test even easier. 6. That neither amp exhibits excessive noise (including RFI). 7. That each amp can be properly driven by the test setup. Not normally a problem but it is theoretically a problem. 8. That the L and R channels are not reversed in one amp. 9. That neither amp has excessive physical noise or other indicators that can be observed by the listener. 10. That neither amp has DC OFFSET that causes audible pops when its output is switched. 11. That the channel separation of all amps in the test is at least 30 dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.

Um... It's in the same issue of Stereophile (The latest - Feb., 2019) in which the 1st Watt appears. I'm looking at the page right now. Do you want a digital pic? Pg., 67. In John Atkinsons review of Ayre's new EX-8 Integrated. Top of pg. under heading "Listening". Very first sentence. "Ayre recommends 100-500 hours of break-in for the EX-8." Wow that amplifier must be some incredibly exotic device, no? ...Even more exotic than all the equipment you see in hospitals?? Do you think MRI machines, CT Scanners, electrocardiographs, surgical robots, etc.. all need 500 hours of use before they work properly? I mean, don't they also have scads of electronic components that need to "settle"? .. Sheesh, I sure hope not.

Yes, I read that too. "He uses ABX testing to understand how experienced listeners perceive distortion, and the role the that distortion might play in helping our brains reconstruct the original musical event." Sounds impressive, if a bit nebulous. So, what was his conclusion? Do people reliably prefer distortion? How does this square with other studies on distortion in musical playback?? Nonetheless, it's a shame that if he had equipment and experienced listeners in place for his ABX testing he didn't take the opportunity to do blinded AB testing to see if his experienced listeners could reliably distinguish and PREFERRED his newer amp to either previous 1st Watt models or other brand amps. As I've said before, if it reliably sounds more music-like to a group of people, why not say that in your ads and cite your trial data. In another review, Ayre Acoustics recommends 100-500 hours of break-in time. This is remarkable to me! Can you imagine buying any other kind of appliance and reading in the manual that it won't work as well as possible for 500 hours!?

So if you are a believer in the house sound and signature sound concept of amplifier selection, what do you think of this very possible theoretical conversation between a customer and a salesperson at an Audio store. What would you tell the customer?? Yes, this is a straw man, but it's not an unlikely scenario. Cus: “Wow, there are a lot of amplifiers in this room - why so many choices? is it just a difference in how powerful they are?” SP: “No, it's because they all have their own sound!” Cus: “Wow, so if I hooked one up after you leave the room could you tell me which is playing without looking when you came back in? SP: “Well, yes, but it would take time - could be hours, maybe days before the amp would reveal itself through its unique signature and feel. I would know which because each differs in how it connects me emotionally with the music.” Cus: “You mean, you couldn’t just tell me now? SP: “No, because your question makes me too uneasy to be receptive to the amps unique signature.” Cus: "Wow... and what about Cd players? Those too?? SP: "Yes, those too AND all of your speaker cables and interconnects as well. ..They all have their own signature. And they all could take a while to reveal their unique strengths to you." I think most beginners looking for a sound system to enjoy with their existing cd and music file collection could very likely think, “Ok, that seems nutty…I think I’ll just go look at a Bose SoundDeck or a Sonos system.”

So long as they are and remain linear while driving speakers to desired levels I personally think they're fine. ..But if they sound like S/S then why bother with the hassle/ cost of adjusting/ replacing tubes.

Go to: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/ you'll find it defined quite clearly. Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers

When I said I was being attacked I was speaking generally about my treatment throughout this thread. Indeed, after a quick re-read of the thread I could find no instances where your responses to me rose to the level of "attacking me", so I stand humbly corrected. I should save the word "attack" specifically for those who are guilty of this. My apologies to you; I'll be more careful going forward. ODS123

I’ll tell you what Dave A: Assume I shared NONE of my own personal experiences regarding testing speaker break-in, or comparing my Mac to my AudioSource, etc… ..Or, if it pleases you, go ahead and assume i lied about all of it. How would that change your response to my recommendation to beginners, which I'll restate below as it seems to be getting twisted by some:: To Beginners, my advice: Your audio system quality is mainly about speakers, their placement, and room acoustics. The audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier cd player, DAC, cables/ power cords, power conditioner, etc.. are negligible. So negligible, in fact, that there is considerable debate whether they are audible at all. To wit: There was once a $10,000 reward offered to any golden eared audiophile who could consistently distinguish b/w two S/S amplifiers. No one claimed the prize. Yes, people offer strong, highly opinionated anecdotal accounts here of how they changed X, then heard Y, but credible, empirical evidence that these differences were not merely the result of expectation bias is sparse at best. Put another way, just how relevant could such differences be if there is ANY debate at all about their existence? If they were audible and they mattered they surely would be plain to the ear of every (non-hearing impaired) music lover. There are still good reasons to be selective about gear. Chose an amp with enough power to drive your speakers to desired levels without distorting. And chose one that offers the features you want and the look/ build-quality you want. But set aside any notions that you must go about choosing amplifiers, cables, cd players, etc. the way a wine connoisseur goes about choosing wine.

I bought the MA6600 when I owned Paradigm S8 v2s. They were not nearly as efficient AND they had beryllium tweeters which are very very expensive to replace. The wattage meters were hugely helpful in keeping the volume well back from the tweeter danger zone. ..The amp was NOT overkill then. ...Yes, it definitely is now. But no, I won't sell it. I love the look, the features and, yes, the wattage meters.

No, I didn't. I did not say all audio gear (e.g., not speakers), nor did I say ALL amps (I stipulated modern amps that engineered to be linear).

I am, and don't forget about AstraZeneca making off-label recommendations to physicians regarding Seroquel. Those are pharma companies acting badly and rightfully paying a high price. Willfully falsifying or ignoring data is to blame, not the science of clinical trials. And I mention clinical trials b/c they do an excellent job of separating the real from the imagined, something which I feel is sorely needed in this hobby.