ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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1 hour ago, TubeHiFiNut said:
A few pages back you accused me of attacking you.
My response was that attacks are not my way of doing things, that a differing opinion is not an attack and to please provide an example so that, if the example is clearly an attack, I can offer the appropriate apology.
When I said I was being attacked I was speaking generally about my treatment throughout this thread. Indeed, after a quick re-read of the thread I could find no instances where your responses to me rose to the level of "attacking me", so I stand humbly corrected. I should save the word "attack" specifically for those who are guilty of this. My apologies to you; I'll be more careful going forward.
ODS123
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11 hours ago, Dave A said:
Yah know what OD? I am not quite certain you own anything or have done anything you claim to be honest. But then I am part of the dishonest and jealous and deceitful quagmire all in the audio world find themselves except for you. OD the 1,000,000 lumen laser focused light of truth shining on the the sordid world of audio.
I’ll tell you what Dave A:
Assume I shared NONE of my own personal experiences regarding testing speaker break-in, or comparing my Mac to my AudioSource, etc… ..Or, if it pleases you, go ahead and assume i lied about all of it. How would that change your response to my recommendation to beginners, which I'll restate below as it seems to be getting twisted by some::
To Beginners, my advice:
- Your audio system quality is mainly about speakers, their placement, and room acoustics.
- The audible differences made by rest of your components, including amplifier cd player, DAC, cables/ power cords, power conditioner, etc.. are negligible. So negligible, in fact, that there is considerable debate whether they are audible at all. To wit: There was once a $10,000 reward offered to any golden eared audiophile who could consistently distinguish b/w two S/S amplifiers. No one claimed the prize.
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Yes, people offer strong, highly opinionated anecdotal accounts here of how they changed X, then heard Y, but credible, empirical evidence that these differences were not merely the result of expectation bias is sparse at best.
- Put another way, just how relevant could such differences be if there is ANY debate at all about their existence? If they were audible and they mattered they surely would be plain to the ear of every (non-hearing impaired) music lover.
- There are still good reasons to be selective about gear. Chose an amp with enough power to drive your speakers to desired levels without distorting. And chose one that offers the features you want and the look/ build-quality you want. But set aside any notions that you must go about choosing amplifiers, cables, cd players, etc. the way a wine connoisseur goes about choosing wine.
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15 hours ago, Deang said:
Your Onkyo probably provides all of those features, except the meters. You have 102dB/2.83v loudspeakers, what do you need meters for? Sell that paperweight and buy your wife something nice. Like I said, you just like the dashboard.
I bought the MA6600 when I owned Paradigm S8 v2s. They were not nearly as efficient AND they had beryllium tweeters which are very very expensive to replace. The wattage meters were hugely helpful in keeping the volume well back from the tweeter danger zone. ..The amp was NOT overkill then. ...Yes, it definitely is now. But no, I won't sell it. I love the look, the features and, yes, the wattage meters.
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2 hours ago, Deang said:
Bullshit. I already copied one post into this thread where you said just that. I also asked the question (several times) what is the difference between saying people can’t hear the difference and all amps sound the same?
How about you go back and read all of your posts - especially the dumbass Richard Clark posts. Are you even paying attention to what you’re typing?
No, I didn't. I did not say all audio gear (e.g., not speakers), nor did I say ALL amps (I stipulated modern amps that engineered to be linear).
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1 hour ago, tube fanatic said:
ODS, why do you keep referencing the pharmaceutical industry in this discussion? If the audio companies were as guilty of data fabrication/deletion in clinical trials, and outright fraud, as the pharmaceutical companies, the former would cease to exist. You can't be unaware of how many companies have been caught up in this (such as GSK's $3 billion settlement over false claims about Avandia safety; and what about Vioxx?).
Maynard
I am, and don't forget about AstraZeneca making off-label recommendations to physicians regarding Seroquel. Those are pharma companies acting badly and rightfully paying a high price. Willfully falsifying or ignoring data is to blame, not the science of clinical trials. And I mention clinical trials b/c they do an excellent job of separating the real from the imagined, something which I feel is sorely needed in this hobby.
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12 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:
If you are actually looking for a conversation where the participants might be able to learn from each other, you should drop this "straw man", which has been discussed ad nauseam on this thread and holds little, if any, credibility with those of us who can hear differences in components.
If you're just "poking the bear" and are not really into having a mutually beneficial conversation, then there's not much for us to discuss.
Just my opinion.
That is NOT the straw man in this discussion. The straw man is the non-existent person you guys keep attacking for saying things that haven't been said. Like "EVERYTHING sounds the same", or even "ALL AMPS sound the same..or that "Klipsch Pro Series speakers suck." ..No one ever said those things yet that is who you keep attacking.
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50 minutes ago, Deang said:
You’re like the guy who drives a Corvette, who tells me I spent more than I should of on my Taurus, because studies indicate that blindfolded passengers can’t tell any real discernible difference in handling. When I ask why you own a Corvette, you tell me you like the way the dashboard is laid out.
Please tell me what other integrated amp has wattage meters, tone controls, a mono switch, and input leveling?? The other choices are no cheaper - luxman and accuphase. I know this b/c I considered them as well.
Are you this critical of people who own, say, a BMW even though they have no intention of wildly exceeding the speed limit or go drifting through turns??
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17 hours ago, robert_kc said:
Which takes me back to my question: Have you performed your listening tests with modern top-quality state-of-the-art recordings (i.e., recorded, mastered, and delivered in hi-res) of music for which there is a clear benchmark for audio quality? How much demand was placed on the hi-fi system by the music you chose (e.g., simple folk music vs. large scale orchestral music)?
Again, I’m not being critical of your music choices, and it is not my intent to tell anyone else what types of music to listen to. I’m just trying to understand why you can’t hear differences in amps.
No offense taken.
Robert.. The belief in the audibility and significance of differences b/w amplifiers pre-dates all those high resolution formats. Plus, whether or not those formats actually sound better sound better is ALSO a matter of considerable debate.
The music I listened to - like The Nightfly and Aja and Muddy Waters Folk Singer, etc.. - have long been used in hifi stores and audio shows to demonstrate and show off the quality of their gear. ..So if they had me listening to the wrong music, then shame on them.
Yes, of course we haven't compared amplifiers WITH EVERY SINGLE recording, so it is theoretically possible that there is some magical recording somewhere that allows people to better hear differences b/w amplifiers. I guess subjectivists can always say, "Well, you didn't listen to X or Y recording, so you really didn't give yourself the best opportunity."
But remember, Richard Clark allowed people to chose their OWN music and their OWN source (cd player, etc..)... And yet no one ever claimed the $10k prize.
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1 hour ago, Dave A said:
and his better than Vandersteen and Bonehead speaker designs to appear any day now and take the audio world by storm. Rumor has it that numerous speaker and audio gear companies are considering joining forces to resist the nascent audio juggernaut ODS123 before he gets funding for his break the mold company. Speculation is that he has turned down offers from all existing major companies in these fields
Nope, I'm not an audio engineer.
Nor am I a doctor, or a clinical scientist. Nonetheless, I understand the importance of clinical drug trials in establishing which health benefits are real and which are imagined; which side-effects are real and which are imagined.
To quote (kinda) the great BD, "You don't need (to be) a weatherman to know which way the wind blows."
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40 minutes ago, Dave A said:
Celebrating 19 days of ODS123. Good Morning everyone and welcome to the ODS123 Zone where up is down and left is right because.
Still waiting for verification of his musician creds and his better than Vandersteen and Bonehead speaker designs to appear any day now and take the audio world by storm. Rumor has it that numerous speaker and audio gear companies are considering joining forces to resist the nascent audio juggernaut ODS123 before he gets funding for his break the mold company. Speculation is that he has turned down offers from all existing major companies in these fields and his reply to them has been why should I join you when I will soon own you?
You guys are sore because you can't abide someone shining a light on the fact that this hobby suffers from a complete lack of honesty or validity controls - something that I am sure would vex our patron saint PWK.
Still, I'm happy this fine morning because I awakened to find that my MDF Cornwall III's have lived to see yet another day despite a startling lack of structural integrity and weather proofing.
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Oy vey, the hostility from some of you people. ..Look, if suggesting that beginners spend most of their money on speakers so offends your audiophile sensibilities, then start your own thread with your own recommendations.
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I never said it was an investment. ..And nor is a Tag Heuer. Even a Rolex is pretty poor as investments go.
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7 minutes ago, Deang said:
should have told her to not spend so much on something that doesn’t offer you anything more than your AVR.
You do realize that a lot of people get expensive watches as anniversary gifts, right? Even though they don't keep time any better than a $100 Atomic Casio, a watch that syncs up every day with the national clock.
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5 minutes ago, richieb said:
=== seeing that his Mc6500 was a gift from his wife then off course it has meaning and should be kept. However, if you think that Lux and Accuphase are the only two other brands with the quality of your Mc then you need to get out more —
It's an MA6600. And I didn't say no other brands offer the quality, I said few other brands have the features (wattage meters, tone, balance, mode control) AND have the tactile feel of the McIntosh.
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4 minutes ago, Tizman said:
Please. Don’t shut down the thread until ODS123 does his comparison of the Sony and the Mac. I really want to see ODS123 say “My McIntosh sounds exactly the same as my Sony reciever”.
Isn’t it day 389 of ODS123 not damaging his speakers with water or dinging them while moving them up a flight of stairs?
Yes! And thanks for noticing
It's Day 389 and miraculously my MDF Cornwall III's are still intact! Thankfully, they haven't succumbed to either a moisture or gravity based calamity.
As for my buying a Sony receiver to compare to my Mac, that will have to wait. Last night my wife put the kibosh on buying a piece of stereo gear, " just to settle an audio forum spat" while we have a son in his freshman year at Northeastern. But remember, I've already declared the MA6600 to sound no better than either my AudioSource AMP100 ($130!) or Onkyo TX-NR1030 AVR.
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1 hour ago, Deang said:
No issue with any of your points Glen except one: his AVR, or a multitude of other more affordable units - all provide the features he demands. Based on his position, the 6500 is a colossal waste of money. He needs to sell it or get the hell out of this thread.
?! One last time...
Why is it so hard to understand that there is more to appreciate about Mac gear than some faint "house sound". ..It has wattage meters (which are rare), tone controls, mode switch, input matching and a look and feel that is very rare these days other than, say, a Luxman or Accuphase integrated. AND it does sound better in the sense that there is ZERO input cross-talk (hearing one source while tuned to another), almost zero hiss at full gain, and it's volume control accuracy is perfect. All of that AND it was a 25th anniversary gift from my wife.
I don't own a Harley, wave runner, bass boat, shore house, or fancy watch... I drive a VW rather than a BMW.. ..This amp is my one "bling" extravagance. ..It certainly wasn't purchased to impress my friends b/c precisely NONE of them have any idea what it is.
So why do I need to sell it or get the hell out of this thread (wth!)?
ADDED: Are you this suspicious of someone who owns a Tag Heuer watch even though it's no better at keeping time than a Seiko?
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9 minutes ago, Deang said:
Since I’m drinking, it might be a good time to lock down this thread - unless everyone is looking forward to
watching me go completely off the rails.
why the interest in locking down the thread? ..sheesh. ..If it no longer holds your interest, then move on to something else.
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15 minutes ago, jimjimbo said:
Well come on, NOT driven to distortion makes no sense. If they were driven to distortion, then what difference would it make? Driven to distortion is not the end game for casual or critical listening.
This means that one can't chose their amp blindly. If you buy a 50 watt AVR to drive 85db efficient speakers to 118 db levels from 30 ft away in a cavernous room you will be sorely disappointed. Yes, it will sound awful.
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10 minutes ago, Tizman said:
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ODS123 has said that all “modern linear” amplifiers sound the same. Repeatedly.
Modern, linear AND not driven to distortion which means some degree of care should be taken in matching amp to speakers. ..I NEVER said ALL amps sound the same. I do think it's a fair bet that pretty much any amp or AVR a newbie might buy from BEST BUY falls into the "modern and linear" category so long as it's not overdriven.
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25 minutes ago, robert_kc said:
Respectfully, I suggest that you re-read my post. I did not “entirely denounce this test”.
P.S. What does pharma have to do with the price of rice in China?
You're right. ..My apologies.
And I'm drawing parallels between the way some people are comfortable using supplements, despite the lack of credible clinical studies, and subjectivist audiophiles. Clinical trials don't have a perfect track record for ensuring efficacy and safety but to use supplements is to throw all caution to the wind. No clinical data showing safety/efficacy AND no gov't oversight ensuring that what is listed on the bottle is actually inside the bottle.
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34 minutes ago, robert_kc said:
When you conducted your listening comparisons that caused you to conclude that “all modern amps sound the same”, were you listening to recordings “from the early age of stereo”? Or, were you listening to modern recordings that were captured and mastered in hi-res (i.e., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD), and delivered in a hi-res format (e.g., SACD, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray, 24/192 download, or DSD download)? What type of player did you use to play the music files?
In other words, have you performed your listening tests with top-quality state-of-the-art recordings and play-back gear? Or, are your conclusions based on listening to 50 year-old recordings?
What genre of music was played during your listening tests? Music for which there is a clear benchmark for quality (e.g., classical), or not (e.g., disco)?
My music tastes run the gamut. From The Ink Spots to Pete Seeger, from Nina Simone to Adele, from Bee Gees to EW&F, from Man of LaMancha to Miss Saigon & Phantom of the Opera; from Duke Ellington to Quincy Jones, from Sandy Denny to Diana Krall, from Johnny Cash to Steve Earl and Lucinda Williams, from Bob Dylan to Richard Thompson & Bruce Cockburn and Jack White, from Green Day to White Stripes, from Rickie Lee Jones to Steely Dan and so on and so on.... There is awesome music to be found in every genre from every decade. If it's good music that comes from authentic emotion, I will probably like it.
When buying gear I am smart enough to include some audiophile favs like The Nightfly, Aja, Keith O Johnson Recordings (Ref. Records) and so on.... Always in lossless format. I do have many LPs but find the format so flawed (though I love it) that it's not really suitable for auditioning speakers.
Honestly, feel free to criticize if you will. ..But I don't think there's anything wrong w/ my music or format choices.
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44 minutes ago, robert_kc said:
I believe this is prima facie evidence that “something is rotten in Denmark”.
As I said in an earlier post, IMO this raises the question as to which listening test methodologies (that apparently are borrowed from completely unrelated fields such as pharma) are reliable when used to judge the quality of audio from a hi-fi system?
As I said before, this test fall quite short of a high quality SBT, let alone DBT. But at least it is an effort on the part of this club to inject some semblance of validity testing into this hobby.
For subjectivists to entirely denounce this test because of it's imperfections as they do NOTHING to control biases when they compare gear, is a lot like people who take nutrional supplements endlessly criticizing Pharmaceutical companies b/c of side effects that were missed in the clinical trials.
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56 minutes ago, Tizman said:
I might add that test referred to in the first post, which is a dumb test, indicated that 24 of 38 people had a preference for one sample over the other. So 63% of the subjects indicated a preference. It doesn’t really matter which system they chose. They chose one over the other. This indicates a perceived difference between the two systems with 63% of subjects. Add to this the very real possibility of a certain percentage of the group of people who are members of an “audio club” being predisposed to choose “no difference”, which skews the result in that direction. In this thread, there are folks that claim to hear differences and those that don’t.
The test was not powered to determine whether or not people can reliably distinguish b/w two amplifiers. Rather, it was designed to see if people prefer a high cost "audiophile" system to a low-brow inexpensive system. As i said earlier...
I'm surprised you wouldn't find it a bit eye-brow raising that in a comparison of a $260 to an $8000 audio system 28 of 38 people - probably all audiophiles who also think they're blessed with exceptional hearing - either preferred the $260 system OR heard no difference.
This is relevant to newbies, I think, because it suggests that rather than get exercised over which amp has better PRAT (ugh, I had that acronym), a deeper soundstage, or whatever other nebulous description golden-eared audiophiles might use in differentiating amps that they instead look for the features that matter to them - like balance control, tone controls, integrated DAC, etc.
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4 hours ago, DizRotus said:
I agree with most of what you say ODS123, but I still find the use of the word “Beginners” in the subject condescending. IMO, this is all about the “O.” Like navels, everyone has one.
Diz.. I'm not sure what it is in the title that is inherently condescending. If I was a newbie in the market to buy speakers and went to the Klipsch website to do research, it's predictable I'd go to the user forum to learn. If I came upon this post I honestly don't think I'd find anything offensive or condescending about the title. Heck, I'd appreciate that someone created a post specifically for those who are inexperienced w/ hifi. ..Even if after I finished reading through the thread and ended up mostly disagreeing with the OP (me!) I still don't think I'd find the title inherently bothersome. Anyway, that notwithstanding, you said you agree with most of what I said so I suppose I should be thankful for that and not spend too much time splitting hairs over the one comment.
It's Day 389 and miraculously my MDF Cornwall III's are still intact! Thankfully, they haven't succumbed to either a moisture or gravity based calamity.
Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Go to: http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/ you'll find it defined quite clearly.
Nearly all currently available amplifiers have specs better than what are required for the test. Tube amplifiers generally qualify, as do full range class D amplifiers