ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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3 hours ago, Dave A said:
The problem is you take your scant experience and combine it with a refusal to believe anything you have not chosen to own is worthwhile. How you form your buying decisions is secret knowledge since the only one that knows the hidden secrets to audio nirvana is you. Then you trot this stuff out and pontificate regarding the only valid opinion which of course is yours.
So where is the evidence hmmm?
Never said I conducted an orchestras as Dave A claimed I had (wth?!) ..I did play in one through school, though. And attended many many performances of a gifted son who sang in district, regional and now college choirs and musicals. ..As for being a lifelong music obsessive, not sure what evidence would suffice. ..A picture of my record collection? ..Ticket stubs? please. ..don't hold your breath.
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1 hour ago, Dave A said:
Hey OD how come you have not answered my question?
I did. 2-3 pages ago. I said,
"If he's promulgating the myth of cable break-in (seriously?) and amp break-in (not mentioned in the owner's manual, but he's said it elsewhere) it becomes hard to know whether or not to take seriously his remarks about Speaker break-in."
As I said, with my last three pairs of speakers I was not able to discern ANY difference b/w the speaker that played overnight and the one that didn't. Given that that is a pretty small sample on which to base my opinion that speaker break-in is a myth (as compared with the abundance of information suggesting modern amps sound alike) and considering all the plausible explanations given here on why it might make a difference, I would probably qualify my statement a bit more carefully.. If I were given the opportunity to take back my statement I would and would re-state it as such:
With my past three speakers I was not able to discern one-iota of difference b/w the speaker that had 12 hours of use and one that didn't. Of those last three speakers it was only the Vandersteen that came with any mention of break-in in the owners manual. Given that I heard NO break-in in his speakers AND that he also promotes the idea of cable and amplifier break-in I have to question his credibility on this point. Instead of break-in being a real thing, I think the idea is promoted b/c it serves a useful purpose for manufacturers such as Vandersteen and the retailers who sell his products; it reduces the amount of product being returned to the store which is enormously costly to both parties. How does it do this? When someone finds out the that their new speakers, amplifier, DAC, cables, interconnects... etc. failed to transform their system as much as they expected and they seek to return the item, they are met with the instruction, "Don't do any critical listening yet - It won't sound it's best for several hundred hours because of break-in." Manufactures know that during this time the return period may expire or you may adjust to how it sounds (referring to speakers). This won't head off ALL returns, but will certainly reduce them.
ADDED:
So I would urge beginners to add claims of "Break-in periods" to the list of things to be wary of as they shop for their 1st (and for many, it would end there) system. Particularly any break-in period that would extend beyond the return period. Vandersteen's ridiculous recommendation of 100 hours of break-in would take 50 days for those who listen 2 hours/ day - which would be a lot for most working people. ..Most return periods are 14 days for refund, 30 days for store credit.
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1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:
Yep. I was with your endeavor until we got to this point and agree with Mike.....A lot of advance audiophile shit going on her but this is a strawman argument from a dude who doesn't have a dog in the race insofar as testing vs real world expectations are concerned. That's my take.
I played live/ unrecorded music for years, and spent an entire lifetime as a music obsessive who has been to countless live performance - both amplified and acoustic. ..I KNOW what real, live music sounds like. ..Not sure what you mean by "a dog in this race" but it's ridiculous to suggest I don't care about fidelity just b/c I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amplifiers - which are designed/ engineered to be linear under normal operating conditions - are audible.
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32 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:
I had hoped most would use common sense when reading my statement. I hope we all know fatigue can be induced by listening at live levels over extended periods.
As far as Tone Controls in my experience the basic bass and treble controls fall far short of what I believe is necessary to deal with the majority of recordings tonal imbalances and I find the 8 bands of the McIntosh C50 invaluable to me and my enjoyment of my system. Many Recordings that I would find fatiguing in a very short time can be rebalanced to be more accurate and less fatiguing very quickly in many instances.
And before anybody says that’s what the engineer and artist wanted me to experience I say bullshit 😄. As Floyd’s Toole has so well pointed out there is no real universal standards in the recording industry which leads to a real circle of confusion where it’s almost impossible to know what we we’re intended to experience by the recording engineers and artists.
miketn
http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html?m=1
I agree with most of what you're saying. And I would have preferred an 8-band equalizer but, alas, at the time bass/treble was the best I could do. ..FWIW, I also find a mono switch to be invaluable. Much of my music is from the early days of Stereo when it was common to have some musicians coming entirely from one speaker and the rest from the other channel. It didn't create a seamless soundstage as much as it sounded like listening to two monaural different recordings - one from each speaker.
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24 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:
I don't care whether PWK would have agreed or not. Electronics have come A LONG way since he unfortunately left this earth.
Yes, they have. The challenges of making a small signal larger without distorting it have been largely solved.
24 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:BTW, when I demoed them for the buyer, he almost didn't buy them as he stated they sounded AWFUL on a vintage Yamaha receiver. Guess what I did? I had him help me carry them into my living room and took 30 minutes or so hooking them up and positioning them just so and guess what? He said "DAMN, Thai is the best sounding system I have heard, and I have heard A LOT". His words, not mine. They were hooked up to a Parasound Halo Integrated playing FLAC to high res files.
Well, I don't know if the vintage Yamaha qualifies as "linear" (ie., does it have a F/R, THD, IMD, S/N ratio etc.. beyond our hearing threshold) but I would say it's entirely possible that moving the speakers into another room may have had everything to do with what he and you were hearing Room acoustics count a great deal.
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As an aside, I'm enjoying day 388 of water-damage and corner-dent free bliss with my MDF Cornwall III's. Fingers crossed.
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2 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:
I think my best advice for a beginner is make it your goal to put together a system that connects you to the music and draws you in to the point that you can listen for hours on end with “0” listener fatigue. Don’t settle for less 🙂
If you can listen for hours with "0" listener fatigue then you may be missing something from the original performance because an accurate system WILL eventually cause listening fatigue That is, if the goal of a system is to recreate the live performance. Live music, even when played by the best musicians, WILL eventually cause listening fatigue if listened to loud enough and long enough. Woodwinds, trumpets/cornets, flutes, even violins If listened to long enough will begin to grate. This is partly why I long ago insisted on tone controls. After 3 or 4 hours of listening, a 1/4 counter clockwise turn of the treble control will allow me to continue on.
Remember, our hearing did not evolve to endure endless loud noises such as that we encounter during concerts. ..Apart from a loud waterfall and maybe crashing waves, our hearing is not prepared for continual loud music, even orchestral music.
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7 hours ago, Dave A said:
OK I will bite. How does that change the comment you made on breaking in those specific speakers?
If he's promulgating the myth of cable break-in (seriously?) and amp break-in (not mentioned in the owner's manual, but he's said it elsewhere) it becomes hard to know whether or not to take seriously his remarks about Speaker break-in. ..No, I probably wouldn't tell him I distrust him on these counts. ..He's cranky.
I loved my 3A sigs, but I never bought into his claims about time coherence/ alignment, etc. ...I listened extensively to them and liked them enough to buy them. ..I sold them b/c they aren't meant for the kind of SPLs necessary for home theater. I now need my floor-standers to perform double-duty: 2-channel for music, L/R front for HT.
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1 hour ago, Tizman said:
ODS123 has never heard a SET amp in his system. He doesn’t want to because he does not consider SETs to be linear. That is what he says. I would argue that anyone who can’t hear that there are differences in sound between different amps with a given set of speakers is not going to be able to hear the differences in distortion between .05% and .5%. Also, a well executed SET is low distortion. It would appear that ODS123 listens at lowish volume based upon his posts. With his Cornwalls this would mean under a quarter Watt, SET amps have lower distortion at low Watts because distortion in SETs increases linearly with output. His contention that SET amps have high distortion is inaccurate. This is especially true in his specific application. Have a look online at distortion levels and the types of distortion that SETs produce and how this correlates to output levels, and you can see that at non damaging SPL with high sensitivity speakers, distortion is very low in a well executed SET amp. It’s kind of pointless looking at distortion levels of a 300B amp at its full 8 Watts output when you are normally using it at a quarter Watt.
I didn't say there are no linear SET amps. McIntosh SET amps are very linear. As I mentioned earlier, a previous employee at McIntosh said it was common knowledge (though not openly admitted) that NO ONE there was able to reliably able to distinguish their SET amps from their S/S amps. ..Now that is a well engineered SET amp!
So, if an SET integrated amp IS linear, and therefore sounds like a S/S amp, why chose it over a S/S amp? Moreover, I also require tone controls, a mono switch and input leveling. Which SET integrated amp even offers this?? McIntosh has SET pre-amps that offer this but not integrated.
Also, I most certainly DO listen to my music very loudly at times. But even then, my wattage meters never crest 20 watts. But when I do listen at quiet levels I expect my integrated or pre-amp to maintain volume balance all the way to full attenuation. My PeachTree Nova plus my Bryston and B&K pre/amp combos failed to do this.
I already said I'd LOVE to have a (newer iteration) MC275. But not because I think it will sound different but b/c I love the history of it, the look, etc... But not until kids are out of school.
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8 minutes ago, Dave A said:
So when are you going to tell Vandersteen he is wrong to eh? Which reminds me he said 100 hours so maybe it would help if you read the manual next time. Ha ha ha, you are killing me OD!!
Keep reading… He also talks about cable break in in the manual.
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17 minutes ago, Tizman said:
A McIntosh MA6600, is not about utility. It's full on shiny. It's utilitarian like a stretch Hummer used to take the kids to school is utilitarian. Given ODS123's beliefs, his choice of a Sony receiver would be utilitarian.
I think my reasons for choosing my amp have been covered, but if not. Here's my review of my amp on Audioasylum. Hifi Heretic is my name there.
https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/amp/180899/review-mcintosh-ma6600-integrated-amplifier-ss -
24 minutes ago, Tizman said:
This is going to depend on the drivers in the speaker. For example, a high efficiency full range driver with a low xmax and a rigid surround does loosen up somewhat and sound different in my experience. The result is a more balanced overall sound compared to out of the box. Specifically, there is more low end when broken in. This is also more likely to be noticeable because one driver is reproducing the full range (or most of it), so changes in frequency response will be more noticeable. I would guess that the change in sound of a more normal DR driver, with a more compliant surround, would not be as noticeable. This is especially true if that "normal" speaker is used in a manner that limits its frequency range such as in a two, three or four way speaker with a crossover. Have you tried this test yourself ODS123? If so, what drivers did you use, and what was the result?
I did w/ my last three speaker purchases: Vandersteen 3A Sigs (3 way floor-stander); Paradigm S8 v2s (3-way floor stander); and my Klipsch Cornwall III's. In each case I let one play through the night than came down the next am to compare. ..No, not one iota of difference.
And not to antagonize but all of your explanations as to WHY break-in might occur doesn't really enter into what I'm suggesting. A beginner can just ignore all of that and just try it. In fact, reading an explanation such as yours or something they may read in an owners manual might have the effect of predisposing them to expectation bias. I personally believe break-in is a myth perpetuated by some manufacturers as a way of discouraging product returns.
250 hours of breakin?
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25 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said:
So what happens when your "beginner" tries these two tests and clearly hears a difference?
Is he lying?
An idiot?
A charlatan?
Should we give him 40 lashes with zip cord?
Shakey
I'd say now swap the left/ right leads just to make sure you're not hearing a channel imbalance - ie., one plays louder than the other. ..Other than that, what's there to say? So they hear a difference. At least they can make the claim after having applied an iota of scientific rigor. And an "iota" is about all that it would be because there's still plenty of opportunity for bias to intrude. But at least it's a comparison made w/ levels matched AND made quickly.
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8 hours ago, Khornukopia said:
Yet, most people can recognize a voice they haven't heard in 10 or 20 years, after hearing a two word phone greeting.
A few months ago I saw a nephew for the first time in a year and noticed immediately how much his voice had changed. ..I made a comment to his mom and she said, "Really? I haven't noticed."
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Beginners: A few other audiophile notions you can easily test:
- Speaker break-in. Once you buy your speakers set both right beside each other. Hook one up and let it play all night. Next day, hook the other up and now switch between the two using a mono recording and the balance control. Hear one iota of difference? Perhaps not all golden-ears, but many will tell you that speakers will sound dramatically different after break-in.
- Interconnect/ Speaker cables: Again, put both speakers right beside each other. Hook fancy/ expensive cable to one channel, hook generic/ inexpensive cable to the other. Again, using a mono song and your balance control switch back and forth. Again, do you hear one iota of difference?
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7 hours ago, Tizman said:
In a double blind test, most audiophiles can’t distinguish between a Republican and.a Democrat based on their posts on online forums.
Please leave politics out of this thread - that is, of course, unless you're trying to get it locked down.
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2 hours ago, richieb said:
=== and not had the opportunity to further edumacate ourselves in audio theory over these informative 34 pages - what a waste that would have been, or is, or has been -
Helll, I was lost after page 4 -
Certainly a lot of ground has been covered. ..Maybe I'll take a break from posting here for the night and instead retire to some Richard Thompson or Nina Simone.
It's kind of a special night. ...My MDF Cornwall IIIs and I are celebrating 387 days together without water-damage or corner dents. Phew.. It hasn't been easy resisting the temptation to take them out in the rain or carry them up 2 flights of stairs.. Fingers crossed for another 387.
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7 minutes ago, Deang said:
There’s nothing unethical about it, that’s why they offer a 45 day return policy - so people have an opportunity to try something before they buy it.
You asked for an amp to try for the purpose of an experiment. I suggested an amp. If you want something full featured, then buy the Sony AVR Jason suggested. I’m sure your son will enjoy toting it back and forth to school.
Buying something just to use in a blinded test w/ my family knowing I'll be returning it afterward makes me uncomfortable. So I'll either agon it or give it to my son.
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59 minutes ago, Deang said:
@ODS123 You said something that would shred the ears and inexpensive. I made a recommendation - and you complain about the lack of a balance knob!? The idea was to listen and send it back.
“Please recommend something that sounds like shit that I can pass on to my kid.”
No, I didn't say return it. I said audiogon it. Buying something knowing I would be returning to the seller strikes me as a bit unethical. ...And it occurred to me that my son might want to use it at school. ..Wouldn't want to spend a ton on something apt to be abused.
Is there a problem w/ wanting a balance control. ..Is that apt to kink the comparison?
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26 minutes ago, Deang said:
@ODS123 Please read the responses. Jason gave you two options 1) any new Sony receiver, and 2) NAD C316
I suggested a Dayton Audio apa150.
And if you want to be truly miserable, you can also try a Crown XTi 1000.
Whatever I buy may end up w/ one of my sons. The Dayton doesn't have a balance control and one of the users complained of a volume imbalance until the knob was 12 0'clock. ..Can't abide that.
So i may go with a Sony receiver or AVR. Can anyone suggest a specific model - one they've heard and can attest is simply awful sounding?? ..Preferably w/ Klipsch?
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32 minutes ago, jason str said:
If you really want a minimum $$ test pick up any new Sony receiver and compare an updated Marantz 22 series,HK 430 or if you need something new try the NAD C316 integrated and throw some power to them.
I'm not sure I understand Jason. I'd consider buying ONE amp/receiver/ AVR to compare w/ my McIntosh MA6600. Can you suggest a model number?
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3 minutes ago, Dave A said:
You done went an made ODS NPC right mad Dean. Now you get to hear about it for the next 6 pages.
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not mad. ...😀 see?!
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5 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:
Phase Linear 4000 plus 400 on La Scalas.
Was unbelievably unpleasant and, since we were being told even way back then that all modern transistor amps sounded the same, caused me to blame the La Scalas - until I listened to a pair on a beautiful SET amp. Bought the La Scalas on the spot.
That detailed enough for you?
I mean something currently available
. Again, a present day S/S amp, stereo receiver, or AVR renowned for sounding horrendous.
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19 minutes ago, jason str said:
From a previous post of yours it looks as though you already own one.
The AudioSource AMP100? ..No, not something I own that you haven't heard. Please recommend something you (or another gold-ear in the thread) has heard w/ Klipsch speakers that was so bad, so awful, so offensive, that you would call it ear-shredding? ..What? Pyle? Crown? Behringer? Onkyo? Pioneer? Please.... Even an AVR would be fine. I'm sure Best Buy sells a handful of such components . If not, then I'll get it online from Sweetwater or B&H, etc..
Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
Not true. ..Most people (non-audiophiles, that is) would not leave their stereo playing at moderate levels for 24 hours straight let alone for 4.2 days. ..Most people don't have a dedicated listening room far from those trying to sleep at night or engage in other activities w/out hearing music. Nor would most people feel comfortable leaving music playing when they leave the house, apt. or condo.
I don't understand your last question. Re-state it please.