ODS123
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Posts posted by ODS123
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13 hours ago, Dave A said:
Lots of old Baltic Birch built speakers still around but somehow I don't think the average life of MDF will ever be close.
That's nonsense. There's no reason to think that such speakers properly cared for won't hold up for years and years. Go on Audiogon and you'll see TONS of 30+ year old speakers, many (if not most) of which have cabinets made of MDF.
Dave.. You haven't answered my question. Why come to a Klipsch sponsored (and paid for) User Forum and essentially trash every speaker they make except the line you happen to own?
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5 hours ago, Tizman said:
My favourite part of this thread is having a heated debate with lovers of MDF. I had no idea anyone could be so enamoured with pulped wood and resin. Plywood, on the other hand, is dead sexy. I’m going to search the web for some plywood porn now.
You have that all wrong. It's you and a few others who have turned owning plywood speakers into some sort of badge of good-taste and distinction. No one is trying to do that with MDF. I'm just pushing back on your unsubstantiated contention that all speakers made with MDF reflect penny-pinching corporate values and are by definition "crap", no matter what their intended application. You persist with this despite the fact that nearly all speakers these days are made from this material.
I think any beginners still following this thread will take your implication that ALL speakers from Klipsch (except pro-series), Vandersteen, PSB, Paradigm, KEF, Legacy, B&W, and so on and so on are crap to be utterly nonsensical. Particularly when they can go onto Audiogon and find tons of well preserved decades old speakers made from this material.
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25 minutes ago, Deang said:
MDF is cheap and reduces labor time when applying veneer. Consumer lines have close to 400% markup - tough to get if you price yourself out of the market by using the most expensive materials and parts.
what exactly do you mean by 400% mark up? Are you suggesting that some fat Mr. Potter is pocketing $4 for every $1 of production cost? If so, you don't understand the cost of running a business.
Yes, Klipsch's retail price is probably more than 4x their cost of production. But there's a crapload of expenses that come out of that. Firstly, the dealer has to pay overhead, employee expenses, carrying costs, and make a well deserved profit or else the dealer would pursue some other line of work. And Klipsch has to pay the same, plus a portion to fund development of new product lines.
If you think MDF is allowing them to gouge the consumer, then go build your own speakers and see how far that goes. ..Let's see what you can do with $4200 (what I paid for Cornwall III's). And I don't mean knock-offs of their current design! No, you can't simply copy what they've already spent a ton of $ developing. Your $4200 has to fund designing your own cabinets, your own horn compression drivers, your own cone speakers, your own cross-over, your own tooling, and so on and so on. ...You'll blow through the $4200 without ever having a working prototype.
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59 minutes ago, Tizman said:
Using sub par materials is using sub par materials. Better materials are preferable. Always. Also, these sub par materials necessitate different construction techniques that are not required when using better quality materials. If 1” Baltic birch was an option, that is what I, and I think most people, would buy. OSD123: If you had a choice when you were purchasing your speakers between 1” MDF and 1” Baltic birch, which one would you have picked? Honestly. Your choice of amp and watch appears to hint what the answer is.
Would be fine with either. But considering that EVERY one of my last speakers - Paradigm, Vandersteen, PSB, Spica, Polk - was made from MDF and not ONE of them ever suffered some sort of calamitous implosion, I'd be very curious WHY Klipsch wouldn't also use MDF unless it was b/c of a commercial application requiring additional anchor points.
Again, you guys want something to snub your noses at others over b/c they don't have something you do. I find that to be unfortunate and strange.
I'll say it again: it's seems rather ungracious to hang out at Klipsch's user forum and trash every speaker they make but the series you happen to own.
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1 hour ago, jason str said:
The weight difference between MDF & Baltic Birch is minimal.
https://www.inchcalculator.com/how-much-does-plywood-weigh/
Really? 99.5 lbs vs. 71.5 lbs for a 3/4" 4 x 8' sheet. ..hardly minimal. That's 28lbs = 39% heavier.
With this in mind, I think it's probably cheaper to build with Birch considering the significant increase in shipping costs for MDF. So why did Klipsch change?? Could well be that MDF's density and consistency from sheet to sheet simply makes it a better choice for precision speakers.. ..Nothing to get so exercised over. Would love to hear details on how Klipsch felt the MDF La Scala sounded better than the Birch.
You guys seem to be attaching some sort of pride-of-ownership badge to Plywood that defies all reason.
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14 hours ago, wvu80 said:
I think that is a very valid point. Klipsch is not in the business of making speakers, it's in the business of making money.
Exactly... What we snidely call penny-pinching might in fact be a company doing all it can to keep as many people employed as possible, give raises, or maintain 401k contributions.. It's ridiculous the way we sometime denigrate managerial accountants. Klipsch has been making awesome speakers for over 70 years! They've survived several recessions and huge changes in the audio gear landscape so they're doing something right where so many have failed. I say Thank god for the bean-counters.
15 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:Choosing MDF has it's compromises, but low cost is certainly part of the equation, along with consistent cross section and air gap free materials. When I toured the Klipsch factory in 1985, there were stacks of plywood front panels that had air gaps and were rejected AFTER the cost of CNC routing and labor was applied, which represented a financial loss to the company.
Well if it's correct that the prototype MDF La Scala's were found to sound better (mentioned earlier in thread) AND MDF reduced production costs, then I'd say that is a double win. Heck, it's still a win if they only cost less but sound the same.
Yes, ply is a better choice if speakers are constantly being moved from club to club, hung from the ceiling of sports venues or maybe used outdoors.. But for the vast majority of us, our speakers see no more of this sort of frequent moving or exposure to the elements than our turntable, amplifiers or flat-screen TVs.
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12 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
apples and oranges, since they didn't use 1" Baltic Birch, it was old LS vs. New LS. Still, the bean counters win.
Again, it's not clear that is the case. MDF is considerably heavier than birch ply. ..So it's predictable the the speakers will be more expensive to ship.
Still, even if it was a bean counter victory, is that a bad thing?? The list of speaker companies that folded over the years is almost endless. Thank goodness bean counters have helped Klipsch to survive a very competitive industry.
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5 minutes ago, tube fanatic said:
In addition, a means of balancing the 2 channels is mandatory in all systems regardless of the speakers used. I've never understood why so many expensive devices still use a single, ganged, volume control. Between variations in the recordings, room, and our ears, it is the only way to achieve a centered sound stage. The only guys I know who don't care about this are those whose only goal is to be assaulted by a massive tidal wave of sound. For them, such things as sound stage and imaging are a non-issue.
A mono switch, or some way to combine the channels is also useful (although not possible at the amp end when using a pair of mono units). I have some Mormon Tabernacle Choir discs, for example, which they recorded on their own label, which sound as if they came from the early sixties- the female vocalists on the left, the males on the right, and a hole in the center. I can't listen to them in the room with the system. It bothers me too much.
Well Said... Because I often listen early in the am or late at night I'm forced to keep the volume low. It was surprising that my very expensive Bryston BP pre-amp's channel balance was way off at low volumes. So much so that the amp went back to be adjusted. The good news is that with 25 year warranty, the repair was free; the bad news is they didn't completely fix it. Later on I owned a Peachtree Nova which had precisely the same problem. Unfortunately, it didn't have a balance control. So I was compelled to sell it. Thankfully, my McIntosh doesn't have this problem. ..But neither does my Onkyo AVR, so I don't think one needs to spend heavily to get a more accurate volume control.
And couldn't agree more on the inclusion of a mono switch. I just used it yesterday while listening to George Winstons December (Windham Hill Recordings) on vinyl. It's a lovely all-piano recording. For some reason however it was mixed with a rather exaggerated soundstage. It's weird hearing some notes coming entirely from the right speaker and others, further down the keyboard, coming from the other. ..Listening in mono made the recording much more enjoyable. ..Early Beatles too. Though the voices and instruments sound surprisingly lifelike on some early recordings, it's strange having the guitar coming entirely out of one speaker and the voice out of the other. Again, mono solved this.
So, to any beginners still reading this thread (a stretch perhaps considering the non-sequiturs and digressions), give serious consideration to buying a pre-amp, integrated amp, or stereo receiver with these controls. Once you have it's unlikely you'll never want to part with them.
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54 minutes ago, Islander said:
When the La Scala II was being designed, two prototype pairs were built, one pair of plywood and one pair of MDF.
After listening tests, the MDF LaScala IIs were found to sound better than the plywood ones, so that’s the material the company went with.
As suspected
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And yet today they use MDF, so perhaps MDF has changed or their opinion of it. I doubt it's to save cost. Though cheaper per sheet, MDF is considerably heavier hence probably more expensive to ship. My hunch: MDF is less resonant, easier to veneer and more than strong enough for speakers not intended for outdoor use. This is probably why ALL speaker companies I can think of including: Dynaudio, Vandersteen, KEF, PSB, JBL, etc... and so on use MDF rather than ply. The only time a speaker company boasts of using something different, it's some sort of resin. Each of these companies is always looking for some bragging right over a competitor; if a few extra dollars spent on Ply would give them that, they would surely seize it, particularly in their pricier lines were a few extra dollars in material costs is justified if it yields just a few more sales. Yet, the don't , I suspect, b/c it doesn't really offer any advantage for indoor speakers.
As for SET amps, as I've already stated. I'll pass, I want a linear amp. If/ when I want to season to taste, I'll use my tone controls, or if need be, get an equalizer. I can appreciate how the glow of the filaments has a seductive quality but the age of tubes has long passed.
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4 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:
There was never any MDF in Hope while Paul Klipsch was the owner. None of that came about until AFTER he sold the company.
Considering PWK's lowly opinion of pricey cables, interconnects and deep skepticism of unsubstantiated claims regarding audible improvements, I suspect he'd blanch at the notion that plywood is audibly better sounding than MDF. ..More durable for road shows and hauling about? Perhaps. ..But better sounding? I doubt it. Which has been my point from all but the beginning of this whole MDF discussion.
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29 minutes ago, Tizman said:
He has too much money invested in his Mac, and doesn’t want to try anything new based on hearing from others with different experiences.
Not true. I've had many other amps over the past 30 years. NAD 7250PE; B&K Pro-10mc/202+ pre/amp combo; Bryston BP25/3BSST pre/amp combo; PeachTree NOVA Integrated; NAD 375BEE Integrated, and finally the McIntosh. And several A/V receivers along the way. I've also spent countless hours - usually when researching my next amp purchase - listening to Class A S/S amps and Tube amps, including Conrad Johnson, Cary, McIntosh and Audio Research. Throughout I have found that when I'm not told which is playing, differences b/w amps essentially disappear. The Richard Clark $10,000 Challenge shows that I'm not alone.
As for my hearing: It measures very well and I have a keen ear for musical nuance honed from years of playing and enjoying live and often unamplified music.
As for "wants to find things online and refer to them here to support his sizeable investment." How exactly? How does telling beginners to "consider allocating most of your system funds toward speakers b/c most evidence suggests that differences b/w modern amps are largely inaudible" support my decision to spend lavishly on an amp??
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7 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:
"Nonsense and drivel would be a perfect thread topic in the forum. Who will start ?"
Ahhhh yes, the current contender has spouted.
Do you mind? Sarcasm is fine so long as you're adding SOMETHING audio-related to the discussion. But comments such as this - and those recently from Jason and JimJimbo add precisely zero. I doubt any beginners visiting this thread hoping to better understand the Objectivist and Subjectivist view of audio gear is finding your comments a good refection on the Subjectivist opinion or audiophiles in general. Be snarky if you want, but be pertinent please.
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2 hours ago, Tizman said:
ODS123: Tone controls add FR distortion and mono switches add distortion as well. Every circuit between the input and output adds distortion and noise, this is sometimes the case even when the circuit in question is not being used. Interesting also that your Mac amp, unlike most modern SS amps, has output transformers like almost all tube amps do. The evil output transformer! How 1967! Your fetish is with the Macintosh brand, not with the particulars of your model. Your comparison between your amp and your watch is not applicable at all. A better analogy would be strapping a grandfather clock on your wrist. Oh well. At least you are listening to some good speakers now. Enjoy!
First of all, if tone control and mono switch added distortion to my amp so what? It's Total Harmnonic and Intermodulation Distortion are .005% at full rated power which is well below audibility, which is something like 1%. Ditto for amp and pre-amp section noise, though I don't recall the spec.
Secondly, they don't. And this is an important discussion I think for beginners to note. Tizman's contention is based on golden ear audiophiles' claims that the EVERY signal break in the audio signal path adds audible distortion. This is simply not true. Yes, when utilized (ie., not zero'd) they add distortion, but when either set at zero or the tone control defeat switch is set, they do nothing to audibly affect the signal. Case in point, take a look at a mixing board and you'll see hundreds and hundreds of signal breaks. If each audibly affected the signal, the signal would be unrecognizable - there'd be nothing left to the recording. Of course, this isn't so as evidence by the ocean of wonderful sounding songs that were mixed with a mixing board. You can test this myth at home: cut one of your speaker wires into four pieces, then reconnect each piece of wire using a twist nut. Using your balance control (another important feature I'd never go without) switch back and forth b/w left and right channel. Hear a difference? Of course not. Those extra 4 signal breaks are inaudible and immeasurable. Would be true if you added hundreds of such breaks.
Tone controls and mono switch are hugely helpful in improving some recordings. I usually leave mine off but every once in a while they help to make an unlistenable song enjoyable.
Yes, when engaged Tone controls work by adding distortion. But they can be left at zero when not needed. Most tube amps, by comparison, ALWAYS add distortion, whether you want it or not for a given song. It's interesting you'd criticize a feature that allows distortion for certain situations but are fine with an amp design that adds distortion always.
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10 hours ago, Dave A said:
Its a shame that the new Heritage series does not offer Baltic Birch construction as an option. I would think it would cost less to build and it satisfied many Klipsch customers for decades. It would cost $72 dollars for two 18mm 60" x 60" sheets of Baltic and $46 dollars for one sheet of 25mm baltic. Cornwall's are how much for a new set? Pure penny pinching at it's finest. Now I would imagine Klipsch pays far less for material by the truckload. These are my prices for this quantity from Mid Tenn Lumber.
I disagree - MDF doesn't cost less to build and ship. To build, maybe, but not to ship as MDF is considerably heavier. ..And probably harder on tools as well. MDF is used b/c it's density and surface is more consistent sheet-to-sheet, easier to shape, splinters far less while being cut and easier to cut.
Klipsch uses Ply in their Pro series b/c those speakers are intended for places where they are suspended/ mounted thus requiring anchors which are more reliable in ply than MDF.
From the KI-396 SMAII data sheet. These speakers are intended for:
• Performing Spaces
• Auditoriums and Houses of Worship • Bars and Music Clubs
• Small/medium Sports Facilities
• Theme Parks and Leisure Venues • Transportation FacilitiesGiven your antipathy for MDF, which Klipsch uses for EVERY speaker line except the one you happen to own, then why spend so much time on this site? It's seems a bit ungracious to take up residence on Klipsch's user forum then endless trash their construction materials. And don't say I've done same. Most everything I've said has come directly from Klipsch's data sheets (eg. comments regarding materials, intended environment and limited F/R). Yes, in the other thread I did intimate that the Pro series may not be intended for as discriminating a listener (an inference I drew from it's intended application) but I quickly acquiesced when BH corrected me.
I wonder how he feels about you endless trashing EVERY one of their current speaker lines but Pro Series.
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6 hours ago, Tizman said:
ODS123: Using a 200 Watt amp for just the first 4 Watts, and most likely less than the first 2 Watts is a poor use of your Mac. I also love the look and build quality of the Macintosh amps. American classics. But fetishistic obsessions with particular brands does not make your choice of amp an appropriate or sensible one. There is no question that all of the speakers that you have owned previously would not have done a SET amp justice. All of them used DR transducers, and had sub par sensitivity and dynamics. The fact is that you are selling yourself short by not experiencing a SET amp now that you have a set of speakers that will actually sound good with one. "Not interested" is the call of the closed minded. If you like I can build you one in an all MDF chassis. Just don't drop it.
My Mac is total overkill, I'll grant you that. ..In much the same way that a Ulysse Nardin watch is overkill; sure it's accurate but an equally accurate watch could be had for a LOT less. And I don't understand why you think enjoying tone controls, mono switch, and input leveling are fetishistic. ..How boring a fetish if they were
No thanks to tubes. If I want to add coloration/distortion, I'll get an equalizer so it can be easily defeated when not in use.
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8 hours ago, Deang said:
Which speakers use MDF for the motorboards? If they do, they’re using T-nuts.
Ki- 396 SMA II and others in the series.. I hope that doesn't change your opinion of them...
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11 minutes ago, Dave A said:
MDF is a better product because you like it not that you have ever built anything with it nor understand the structural deficiencies it has. Stiff and brittle subject to failure with shock or minor water exposure and because penny pinching people build expensive speakers from it you think that validates it. So I see your same old if they were constantly moved arguments surface again. Please observe the attached pictures for home use never exposed to the potential for damage superior MDF because everyone is doing it speakers. Dropped one time. Any questions? Superiority of material comments?
Those pictures are absurd. ..Do you buy your cd players, amps, and A/V processors on the basis of which can best take a punch
As I said, I've had many many speakers over the years and NONE have sustained that kind of damage. Speakers that aren't being boxed and handled by roadies on a nightly basis don't need to be build with plywood. ..Most speakers are just fine /w MDF. ..Just as used by all the best speaker companies in the world when building speakers for home use.
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1 minute ago, Deang said:
... and does not hold screws for shit.
I had some MDF boards over here for crossover builds, I ended up pitching them. Absolutely worthless.
Yet Klipsch uses MDF for the motorboards - which is where the important screws are utilized - of their Pro speakers, so go figure. ..So why haven't ANY of my aforementioned previous speakers fallen apart?? ..30 years, 10 different brands, and 0 self-destructions. ..why I wonder?
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34 minutes ago, Tizman said:
Have you ever actually tried a quality SET amp with your Cornwalls?
Thanks but I'm not particularly interested in SET amps.
Though I don't believe that differences b/w modern day amps that are engineered to be linear are audible (which is to say pretty much ALL amps) I still have my reasons for buying the McIntosh. And yes, it's overkill for the CW's, but it wasn't for the Paradigm Signature S8 v2.s that I owned when I purchased it. My reasons:
- I've wanted one since I was a kid;
- I love the look, the feel, and tactile enjoyment of Mac gear;
- Input matching. ..I hate the huge volume swings when switching from one source to another (e.g, music server to TV);
- I absolutely insist on having tone controls. I'd rather adjust a songs tonal balance than never listen to it b/c it's overly bright, etc.. Golden ear audiophiles position on Tone controls (ie., they should be avoided) is, IMHO, absolutely ridiculous. I won't own an amp w/out again.
- I absolutely insist on ability to switch to Mono. So many early stereo recordings (eg., early Beatles) have very gimmicky stereo effects;
- I like the wattage meters. Though not important with the CW III's, with my Paradigms it was reassuring to know I wasn't nearing their input limits
- The MA6600 is dead silent. Even with the 103 db efficient CW's I don't hear ANY hiss b/w songs or with the source paused.
- I often need to listen at quiet levels. Unlike the Bryston and Peach tree amps I owned before it, my MA6600 keeps each channel in perfect balance all the way to full attenuation.
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I love the tactile feel of operating it (did I mention that? ..oops I think I did ).
I wouldn't object to owning a Mac Tube amp but they are so linear that I don't think I or anyone here could reliably distinguish it from my S/S integrated. ..So why bother changing.
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2 minutes ago, jason str said:
Klipsch made pro sound Cornwalls.
Again, insisting on plywood construction is insisting on a solution in search of a problem.
Over the the last 30 years I have had Polk Audio 5jrs, Spica TC-50's, PSB Alpha A/V's, PSB Stratus Minis, Vandersteen 3A Sigs, Paradigm S8 v2's, and now Klipsch Cornwall iii's. All made from MDF and all dent and water-damage free. I treat my speakers like I do my electronic components. ..Keep them well away from water and avoid dropping them.
If I should ever chose speakers that are apt to be boxed and hauled by roadies, I may change my opinion. ..But for now, I think MDF is a better choice for home speaker construction.
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18 minutes ago, Tizman said:
Another interesting “what if” is what would they look like now if they were made of MDF and then were used as PA speakers by a bunch of different bands since 1976?
No worries then as I have no plans on using my Cornwalls as PA speakers; a purpose for which they were never intended.
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49 minutes ago, jason str said:
Yes, longer lasting.
Drop your MDF cabinet on the corner by accident and let me know how it holds up.
If you don't dust or move them its possible to have light wear but people move things around and those that do know what holds up over time and what does not.
Yes, well I have no greater need for my speakers to hold up to frequent handling, and possible dropping, than my components. ..I've had 10 pairs of speakers over the last 30 years, all made of MDF, and NONE was ever dropped on a corner. ..So i'm not sure what advantages plywood construction would have accrued to me or pretty much anyone I know.
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3 minutes ago, jason str said:
MDF is more consistent, yes.
Plywood is much more durable and much more resistant to moisture damage as well making for a lasting cabinet.
The lightweight and moisture resistant MDF is a poor product choice as well and defeats the cost savings to boot.
Long lasting cabinet? ..I have 25 year old MDF speakers that look brand new. And there is no greater need for these, or any home/ studio speakers to be moisture resistant than the there is for the amplifiers and components that drive them. ..Sounds like you're suggesting a solution that is in search of a problem.
As I said, I've had many many speakers over the years and NONE have sustained that kind of damage. Speakers that aren't being boxed and handled by roadies on a nightly basis don't need to be build with plywood. ..Most speakers are just fine /w MDF. ..Just as used by all the best speaker companies in the world when building speakers for home use.
Advice for Beginners - consider this test from an audio club
in General Klipsch Info
Posted
"not exposed to moisture" ..Ok, but is that so hard to accomplish?
I have a 150 year old cabinet and 100 year old corner cupboard in my house - handed down by grandparents and parents - that also have never been exposed to moisture. Along with a toaster, 2 TV's an old iMac and about 5 table lamps. Those, along with my turntable, amplifiers, and 500+ vinyl LPs have never been exposed to standing or dripping water - and I don't think I've been working particularly hard at making that so. Am I missing something
? ..Are people maybe routinely dragging their gear out into the rain to enjoy a nice listening session out in the elements?
I think the challenges of keeping gear dry is being a bit over stated.