MoMoney

PPS by "closer to spec" meant "closest to nominal value possible," and ALSO "matching a given L/network component [cap] value as close as feasible to the R/network value" i.e., "cap-match" at the execution level. Design dependent. Seldom have I seen anybody remark on HOW "important" this might be. Does that mean "relatively" UN-important? Assuming manufacturers quality control(s) typically render components w/in spec, which seems to "vary" somewhat by design/type. Anyhow IF something means something, then there's way(s) to quantify or at least qualify it. Else it's hand-waving and/or gobbledygook hence meaningless. To what EXTENT is always end-game. Answers like "inaudible" SEEMS useless UNTIL one ascribes "at what POINT inaudible." Even if accidentally. "We installed the wrong nominal cap value" and "then something SOUNDED wrong," and/or "it MEASURED wrong" &tc &tc. I know it's into the weeds but ya never know 'till ya KNOW Lol! Glad Tidings! Mo

Hopefully isn't "too old" a thread to piggy back a bit nonetheless serendipitous-type situation "inquiring minds might want to know?" Lol! Anyhow this is a technical Q? w/ (probably) fairly concrete answer is some/most/[all respects when comes to actual application]? Recently I re-capped (an otherwise) good pair [unless you count the blown OE (cheap) tweeters likewise R&R w/ OE - or knockoff (whatever) 10mm hard poly domes] JBL HLS820s. Those JBLs [3rd Butterworth I think?] called for 5.7 & 22 & 44uF capacitors. The new (cheap) tweeters were only $5.34ea. on "clearance" thank God. Normally $11.00 whatever. I've no idea if these are = OE (in quality Lol!) so-called ... perhaps cheap 10mm poly domes are "historically all-about-the-same" as apparently they sold thousands (for automotive app as well?) if not tens-of-thousands of them. An incredibly large number; so MAYBE some super-advanced-hobbyist (or pro engineer) put them through some paces w/ measuring devices (or other test) to see if there's any "quality control" on the more recent knockoffs (for a fact JBL themselves sold a bunch for around $31/ea "as replacements" but that's likely 100% markup? maybe they're "worth" $15 retail?? -- I haven't grown audiophile ears -- nor where I sit can compare them $50 or $100 tweeters so can't SAY they sound terrible -- but EVENTUALLY might like to know Lol!) Meaning I'd like to pop a pair into some older SONY bookshelves ... w/ 3/4" soft domes ... to see IF one can hear "reduced sibilance?" Ok, on the JBL HLS820, however,, only the 22uF & 44uF electrolytic caps REALLY NEEDED replacing (the 5.7uF was/is mylar or some-such still in fine shape so decided leave-them-be) ... We ruled out going w/ the (roughly $20/ea +$12ea X's 2 +shipping = $75) film caps in favor of "Simply use [close to OE] axial electrolytic" = roughly $8.50 or 1/10 the price of "upgrading from [original] little radial caps." They'll last another 10-15 years, whatever. Done Deal. Necessarily, optionally, going-from--point-A-to-point-B involved going to Brick&Morter Shop (downtown) to do some "cap-matching" so-called ... I'm a NOVICE to electronics. Total Rookie. But I'm not stupid, and was able to borrow The Shop's ESR meter, since the 44uF bi-polar caps are OBSOLETE, and so 47uF (also 100V) was the only/obvious default. I went to the bins and started measuring. I was looking for a "pair," of nominal 47uF's - that - if serendipity was in my favor ... well, those that know a-lot-more-than-me will reckon (advanced hobbyists or bonafide engineers) "odds might be OK..." Fortunately, I found a pair measuring 44.5 and 45.4uF ... they were running low (I'd guess) and the FEW REMAINING 47uF caps were in the 49.1-to-50.3uF range. These are supposed to have tolerance of 5% I'm pretty sure. There MIGHT have been one other that measured 48.X or 49.X ... no biggie -- let experts read between the lines. "L/R cap-matching" [I've encountered here&there w/in the hobby] presumably MATTERS [i.e., to what extent it matters is difficult to nail-down] and found the desired second pair resulted in 19.1 and 19.2uF for both the nominal 22uF's. There might have been another half-dozen 47uF caps in the bin -- at most -- 100V -- but the discrepancy was no better than the (othe)r 22uF bin. ALL GOOD. NO PROBLEM. It's (apparently) the "L/R match" that matters MORE than the, uh, er, the nominal match, provided the latter deviates only slightly. My understanding is crossover frequency might have been "skewed" from (published) 2600Hz to 2700Hz (roughly?) in this minor tweak; or rather: that a simulation might indicate something along those lines. I'm just GUESSING. Nobody publishes XO frequency specs: "2600Hz +/- 2%" e.g., but I'm GUESSING there's built-in parameters nominalize those -- w/ maybe some "standard" signal(s)? Math & Engineering seems complex and (at my level) WHO CARES? e.g., When I read http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html: IN PRACTICE The higher the quality of a hi-fi-system the more obvious the differences between various capacitors can be. A higher rating does not automatically mean "better", it is related to the implementation which capacitor will ultimately sound best in a given system. So just replacing everything with "the best" capacitor you can find usually doesn't lead to optimum results. Using different caps in different places throughout the crossover can help you achieve the sonic character you are after. then I just take Mr. Humble.com to be trustworthy on faith. I've read that "different" caps (different from OE) can result in "Different ESR values regardless the nominal uF capacitance" and that's going to "Change the sound of the speaker from OE, tho whether audibly or not, depends on all factors." So anything besides OE caps changes things, possibly for the better, maybe for the worse, although at "my level" maybe it's inaudible. And if maybe it's inaudible - then - I'm not spending $70 versus $7. UNLESS/UNTIL SOMEBODY PROVIDE(D) SOME CONCRETE REAL-WORLD EVIDENCE THAT IT'S WORTH 10X's THE PRICE. Sure SEEMS that THERE'S TOO-MUCH ANECDOTAL INDICATIONS (EMOTIONAL?) SOMETIMES COUNTER-INDICATIONS -- TO THROW MUCH MONEY AT (POTENTIALLY) "CHEAP" SPEAKERS AND ANYTHING UNDER $200 or $500 (depending, bookshelf or floor model) or maybe even $700 or $1,000? (I'm GUESSING!) ON OLDER/PRIMITIVE (so-called) MODELS qualifies as cheap. $10 sure, yes; $100 prolly not. These JBLs $600/list in 2002 -- we fixed-up-nice -- are 2-way speakers (or essentially networked that way w/ [two total] pair of woofers per speaker in series.) No biggie. If JBL chose caps randomly (from large lots) during OE assembly, theoretically the [my] "new" networks might even be "better than mint" given the potential discrepancy at the point of "cap match." That's really into the weeds, I think, because I think it concerns only "balancing" on mono-recordings and room-effects like a couch or something (I'd guess) far outweighs or counteracts that "theory." Nobody talks about that (much - or at all?) esp. w/r/t older models --- or put differently "I've yet to encounter manufacturer(s) that divulge so-called that type of parameters or quality control or whatever terminology [meaning I'm simply ignorant of any]. HERE'S THE RUB: NOW WE'VE GOT A PAIR OF THE KLIPSCH 8.5s [along w/ the KSW 10 Subwoofer] needing re-capped. The "cost effective" i.e., $11-$12 dollar-method-parts (my labor = $0.0) way-to-go MIGHT be (serendipitously) BLOCKED beings the (one of the pairs) caps called for is AGAIN 44uF (reads "use nominal 47uf AND MEASURE") ... unless, of course, the Shop has re-stocked -- which seems semi to highly-unlikely beings they really didn't seem to give-a-rat about cheap caps. Can't blame them. I'd thought of ASKING them (this last summer) however, "How OLD are these-here cheap caps?" knowing the odds of an honest answer was almost nil. It's crazy, life in the Internet Age is crazy, but I got the impression from the counter-guys at the Shop that "If you ain't dropping a wad," then you might as well be "The one person requiring a crow-bar to crack open the wallet" type-of-guy. Seriously. Lol! It's trivial, but nobody wants to be regarded w/ same level of respect as a bug. No biggie. So I hadda think-this-one-thru, just a bit, and in my narrow cubic-centimeter of NON-electronics-expert regime, can't help but 'splain the SLIGHT PREDICAMENT: Naturally, "at the Shop" I had to nearly pry the ESR meter from the "Owner's" cold-dead-hands [meter seemingly sat idly in the front-counter-desk 99% of the time] unless I wanted to pay $149 for it! Can't make this up. He (the "head" salesman acted like he owned-the-place) literally wanted to charge me for "battery time" else REPEATEDLY INSISTED "There's a guy wants to buy this ESR meter so this is last time YOU'LL use it" despite the fact I WAS BUYING parts. WTF? He half-way acted like it was a joke. Funny ha ha.no biggie, minor thing. The same ESR meter (a nice one) can be had on Ebay for $99. Honestly, I'd rather just buy caps that were closer to spec. BUT HOW DOES ONE DO THAT? The ones in the bins is no different than any random Internet lot. Maybe buying the meter might help?? OBVIOUSLY it costs about the same as the speakers Lol! Very LAST thing in life I'd aspire to is "troublesome or nuisance" or some-such thing -- but this is a bit of a sticky wicket. The forum is helpful, but halfway wonder if "Electronics club [meeting local] might be Golden??]" I'm in the Kansas City area. I googled electronics clubs but zilch came back. Any hobbyists in the KC area? Lol! I SWEAR IT NEVER HURTS TO ASK. Sorry for the VERY long post, but nobody that reads is obligated (I'm assuming) and MAYBE JUST MAYBE "some small thing of value to others" might result my long-windiness. The RESULTS on the "refurbish" JBL Towers is FANTASTIC and were HOPING results on KLIPSCH 8.5 might be similar. I've got a pair of BA CR65 bookshelf speakers here we'll eventually hope to compare KLIPSCH Icon or R-15 or something. It'll also be very interesting to A-B compare the KSF 8.5 w/ HLS820 and I'll post what we get. PS it's DIFFICULT to decide upon "reference recordings" or even music passages. Have recently tried LZ III "Tangerine" and "That's The Way" and "Bron-y-Aur Stomp" w/ some decent "discernible affects" ... With better speakers we HEAR (incidentally) the neck-squeaking on guitar(s) on Dylan's "You Left Me Standing Doorway Crying" and "Not Dark Yet" hadn't noticed earlier! Likewise the quietly whispered count-off "One two, One two three four, One two" on "Tangerine" finally obvious and starting to hear halo(s) on cymbals w/ speaker refurbish -- not-to-mention JPJ bass guitar parts (much clearer -- notes I've not heard previous) and been suggested "Melody" by the Stones is another we should check. There's some long posts on "referencing" speakers w/ Miles' Kind of Blue ["So What" in particular] for "staging and spacing studio effects" and hearing "air around the horns" and I believe I've got CD's of those here now. Also good fortune is I bought Glen Gould' 1981 J.S. Bach Goldberg Variations (I think is called) long while back and supposedly good recording and can "faintly hear him humming w/ piano" ... also read about "hearing foot pedals" Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D-Minor tho I don't know which record. I'm not into Metal or electronic dance pop. Blues-based R&B Rock and soul classics all the way to Ray Charles ... Van Morrison records w/ Ted Templeman SEEM produced REALLY well but who am I to KNOW? THERE'S GOTTA BE BETTER THREADS ON REFERENCING SPEAKERS w/r/t: "Call it classic Black American per se and Afro-American-INFLUENCED soul/R&B/rock/blues" late 50's-60s-70's records ... but it's never jumped out at me. The "best" so-called speaker referencing/testing threads tend towards jazz & classical, IF we OWNED more those recordings. Other day I saw a guy (w/ 1/4 million in stereo gear) swear that "cassettes sound best." That's hard to fathom. No biggie, but some people say certain "organic" sounds like rocks skipping whirring/wizzing across ice can't be rendered to CD well. I'm prolly NOT gonna pursue that and stick to CD like EC 461 Ocean Blvd.-types of thingy. I've got ******* Brew on CD but very little jazz & classical beyond that but THINK that King Curtis' OUGHT to be GREAT for "testing" mid-range. Those were mainly Atlantic (I think) and a lot of people say Wexler/Dowd weren't necessarily "100% audiophile." But a deeper Q? is "Need they be?" i.e., so many folks list long files of test-able recordings (Steely Dan is a fav) but RARELY any particulars about "WHAT SPECIFICALLY" to listen for? Superficially seems like I'm making it too complicated yet the reverse is true. To just say "XYZ sounds great" with zero particulars -- that's way too GENERAL (meaning complex to wade through!) -- can't a person put in words specific "passage(s)" where tonal qualities might be LOST in inferior speaker systems? Can't ALWAYS be that difficult to -- then again maybe it IS "trial & error." Seems time consuming. An ensemble might be required, for sure, but not 25+ pieces Lol!