Six Pack & Sub Chaser???

[HornEd]

The HT trend seems to heading toward having a six pack of discrete Klipsch speakers and a "big daddy" bottom-feeding subwoofer chasing after everything under 80hz.

The latest Denon's include an algorithm from dts that makes just about everything six channel that isn't already.

Admittedly, six discrete channels (R&L mains, front center, R&L surrounds, rear center) take a bit more fiddling and a few more bucks... but it can do wonders for acoustically challenged environments. I even like adding a pair of front effects speakers to raise and widen the sound stage while my mains and center are tucked close to the widescreen to better knit the audio to the video for us narrow minded enthusiasts.

But, by far, the biggest challenge is making the big bass waves behave. Here is a place where size matters... and the longest waves are omnidirectional... so one choice corner array of two subs should be able to keep the joint full of the big ones... EXCEPT there seems to be no easy way to skim all the non-directional bass from the ALL SIX discrete channels and send it to the corner bass pumpers. Any ideas? ...solutions? ...or future plans? HornEd

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"Klipsch by the Dozen"

KLF 30's Front Mains

KLF C-7 Front Center

KSW-15 Front Pwr Sub

SB-2 Front Effects

KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear L&R

KSW-12 + KLF 10 Rear Ctr.

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

[boa12]

hey ed,

to get a lot of that non-directional bass to the sub(s) connected to the sub pre-outs, u would set those channels to small speakers.

or are we talking something more complex?

actually many systems now (f.e. the denon 5800) are using a 7-pack (or would that be a brewer's 1/2 dozen ), w/ 2 rear effects speaks.

i'm leaning toward that w/ 2 more side surrounds for music only (a 10 pack w/ 1 big sub included). someday maybe...

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Klipsch KLF-30 (front), KLF-C7, Cornwall I (rear)

Velodyne HGS-18 sub woofer

Monsterbass 400 sub interconnect & Monster S-12 cable

Sony STR-DE935 a/v receiver

Sony DVP-C650D cd/dvd player

Sony Trinitron 27" stereo tv

Toshiba hi-fi stereo vcr

Technics dual cassette deck

Technics direct drive turntable

Scientific Atlanta Explorer 2000 digital cable box

2nd room:

Klipsch RF-3 (front), RC-3, cheap little Technics (rear)

Kenwood KR-9600 AM/FM stereo receiver (vintage '75)

Teac PD-D1200 5-disk cd player

Sega Genesis game player

Sub: None yet

rock on!

[ledzeprep]

Im thinking a nice high end eq placed in the right bandwidth would help.

[HornEd]

Yes, Boa, as you might suspect I am indeed thinking of something more complex. And, I agree, ledzeprep, a good EQ goes a long way to making those big, bad bass waves behave through the artful process of elimination.

The Denon 5800 is the one that uses the latest dts algorithms for making multichannels out of various formats. I suspect that a lot more of the higher end preamp builders will be on the bandwagon before the year is out.

I think we are in the middle of a technology and craft shift from two surround sound speakers designed to give "aural clues" to three full spectrum effects speakers. I expect that the preferred placement would have the left and right rear effects speakers against the side walls just behind the main listening area and one rear effects speaker against the middle of the far wall. We are in the process of viewing all our past favorite DVD's in this configuration... and you can readily hear great differences in the range of sounds assigned to the surround tracks of 5.1.

As a full sound treatment (rather than limited surround clues) is given to rear right, left and center channels, it seems appropriate that the non-directional low sounds should be sent to the .1 channel... and that does not now seem to be the case.

My experiment with extra Ksubs to the rear array has brought out deep sounds with directionality from DVD's that did not appear before the rear subs.

Clearly, the best of both worlds seems to be having the three rear speakers set on a crossover of about 80hz and everything below headed for a big corner sub. That way your sense of direction will come from the appropriate direction and the quality non-directional base can come from an instrument designed to keep pace with the deep natural bass that can transform a movie into a bona fide experience.

Boa, I think you are on the right track with your 18 incher... now all you have to do is funnel the bass your not getting into that HT beauty. HornEd

[boa12]

yes ed it would be nice to control that low bass cut-off at the receiver level, which I believe some units can do. most units send all LFE to the sub outs just by selecting sub yes (which makes sense as LFE is a descrete channel & made for a subwoofer).

i have heard a lot of low bass from my rear cornwalls, which put out pretty well down to 25hz. but lfe only goes to my sub as long as I choose sub:yes. i believe this is the way w/ most if not all receivers. many confuse lfe with low bass (the bass below the sub cut-off on all other channels but the LFE).

denon recommends rear effects speakers at a 60 degree angle from the center listening position (on the back wall). like w/ the 5800 u could have 2 pair of side surrounds (A+ as well as the 2 rear effects speaks.

u could even set the distance (delay) on each

side surround seperately for some interesting

panning effects I would imagine.

[HornEd]

Getting to first bass with HT's diamond in the rough is not an easy task in these days of mid-format transition. I have found Brian Florian's article (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-misunderstood-lfe-channel-april-2000.html) to be a sound beginning to HT bass understanding

And, Boa, what an incentive it provides for you to pick up another 18 incher

My concern remains that I be able to knowingly direct bass material in a way that it becomes most meaningful... and so far I haven't found the right "tweek environment"... even in the 5800. And so, like the fabled Greek who searched for an honest man (and found an earnest comicstrip Pogo wanting for having returned a dollar with a different serial number)... I shall raise my lamp unto the gloom and search for an honest bass. HornEd

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"Klipsch by the Dozen"

Front Six Pack:

KLF 30's R&L + KLF C-7

KSW-15 Sub, SB-2 Effects

Rear Six Pack:

KLF 10 thru KSW-12 L/C/R

Speaker Support Systems:

Mitsubishi RPHD1080 65"

Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver

Happy Ears x2!