Non-Rectangular Room Setup?

[aWG]

Hello,

I've been trying to setup a modest home theater in my condo. I've decided to go with the RF-15 main speakers and their accompanying surrounds since I can get them at a discount locally. I've already purchased the RF-15's, but I am having trouble determining where to place the surround speakers. Unfortunately my room is not quite rectangular, it is more triangular with an L-shaped couch and no back wall. I've enclosed a picture.

In the picture the red rectangles are my couches. The blue rectangle is all my equipment (receiver, xbox, etc.) so that wall is taken up. The green is a computer desk, leaving that space taken up. The pink are the RF-15 speakers and my TV sits on top of the fireplace. It is a 37" LCD so the center channel cannot sit on top. I have a RW-10 subwoofer which is wedged between an RF-15 speaker and my audio equipment rack (the blue rectangle).

My first dilemma is there's no place for the center. I could perhaps put the speaker UNDER the TV if it would support that kind of weight, but I'm worried then about the TV being too high for viewing comfortably (it is already fairly high). I'm worried about ceiling mounting anything since it's a condo and
already someone in the building has drilled into plumbing by accident,
otherwise I'd mount the center above the TV. I'm thinking about getting a speaker stand for the center and putting it above the TV, but it would probably ruin the aesthetics of a clean fireplace mantle that houses only my TV.

The second problem is the surround sound speakers. All documents I've read say "they should be slightly above ear height, to the sides of the viewer". But I have an L-shaped setup, so the left side of one viewer is not the left side of another. How can I mount the surrounds so they sound right when watching films?

Also, while I'm at it, any last minute advice about purchasing matching front/surround speakers? As I've mentioned, I currently own the RF-15's and the RW-10. Is matching with the RC-25 and RS-25 that important? Can I go with the cheaper, smaller Synergy surround pair?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[WMcD]

Sorry you have not received any response.

Actually you problem follows mine to some extent. The former owner of my space put the TV in the corner and it worked for that. Just as like with yours, this is a natural cubby hole. But most home theater set ups assume a very symetric rectangular room and give no suggestions for asymetric set ups.

As far as a center speaker, you should check the main website. Klipsch has a set up for flat panel TVs. The center is not a perfect match for your existing system but may well work in the acoustics. Light weight and probably easy to mount on a wall.

As far as mounting it to a wall: I can only guess that you've already put some anchors into the wall to fasten the TV into the sheetrock over the flue space. There may be a water pipe issue in the ceiling (if you need to go there) but it seems very unlikely that water pipes are run near the fireplace chimney. Your condo association should have blue prints to show what is where.

I can see the surround issue. I think the cook book solutions are based on having a cook book room. Again, here we don't, but that is no reason to not seek a work around.

I read that people set up surround speakers on their backs behind sofas or on top of book cases. This can work in that the sound is reflect up at the ceiling and gives the desired envelopment, which is the prime target result. The newer HT receivers have programs which allow adjustment of level to compensate automatically or you can measure with an RS sound pressure meter, or even by ear.

Gil

[aWG]

Thanks for the response! Having the speakers facing upward is something I haven't heard of before, that may help with my options. Also I don't have the LCD wall-mounted or ceiling mounted. It's actually just sitting on top of the fireplace (which is really deep and triangular).

Right now I'm mostly worried about the speakers being behind and not neccesarily facing the viewer. To explain this, I'll call the couch against the Master Bedroom the primary couch (since it is the primary listening position, the one I use when I watch alone). Please refer to the photo included in the original post.

Should I put speakers near the back on either side of the room (i.e. the right one is at the joint of the couches)? If so, the listeners in the primary couch would be hearing the right-surround sound coming from their left. But if I put both speakers on either side of that listening position, then the secondary couch would have both speakers to their right. It's that sort of dilemma that has me stuck right now. I'm thinking about putting the speakers behind the couches altogether, and have the surround coming from behind the listener instead of beside them (most guides I've read say this isn't the correct positioning, but I'm not sure I have another choice), again doing this will make it so both surrounds are coming from the left of the primary couch.

For the center speaker, what I'd really like is a speaker that could mount to the LCD itself (on the top). That would be great, but I think I may just have to forget about obtaining a center and having my two front speakers simulate it since I haven't seen any of those.

Side note, I have one of those newer receivers that does the auto-calibration (Pioneer 816), and it seems to be okay but I prefer to manually boost up the bass on the subwoofer otherwise I don't get a nice blend (it doesn't seem to configure that part correctly).

Any suggestion on where to place these speakers would be great. I'd like to avoid ceiling mounting if possible, but if that's the best way to go then I suppose I can dig up the blue prints and give it a shot (I'm not really a handy with that sort of stuff, but I can figure something out).

Thanks again.

[WMcD]

Okay, now I've got a lot better idea of the issues.

Re the center" look at the flat panel system on the main web page. I'd think you could place one of those above or below the TV. Of course you might want to look at something which matches you present speakers if you can come up with a mounting strategy. I've got some thoughts but ultimately is a matter of your taste.

- - - - - -

If I was in your situation and concerned with mounting a center without attaching to walls or the TV, I would:

1) Build a rectangular four sided box to take the center speaker and put it under the TV, with the box supporting the TV.

2) Or build a an inverted U box (or four-sided) as tall as the TV and put the speaker on top.

Either of these could be done with 1/2 inch ply which could be painted to match the frame of the TV or the speaker or the fireplace. It might not be too visually intrusive. Or make it really intrusive by making space for shelves for DVDs or such at the sides.

3) Build a C shaped box with its base under the TV, the vertical part in the back of the TV, and the top just over the TV . Then put the speaker on top or mount the back of the speaker to the vertical. This would be not very intrusive.

= = =

Re surrounds. I see the problem with the two couches, etc. They may be no easy solution because you can't argue with geometry. I'll pass along some observations and maybe that will get you thinking in new directions.

1) The speakers "behind" thought is held on to by some people. It is a bit of throwback to the Quad era where the sound was intentionally supposed to come from "back there" in the corners. Quad never went very far because of problems getting four channel on vinyl. But also, unless you were trying to re create sitting in the center of a quartet, music was very artificial in placement.

2) The idea of surround is more "envelopment" where the sound does not come from any detectable source (not really localized by the ear). This is to recreate concert hall reflection, birds chirping, bullets flying, bipes bursting, Imperial Storm Trooper breaking into the hull, football crowds, and effects like that. This is a description of what goes INTO surround channels at the recording end.

3) The idea of non-localized sound says a lot about how the speakers have to work to get the envelopment effect. Essentially, a matter of what comes OUT of surround channel speakers at the playback end. In theaters there are many of them around the circumfrence. In the Klipsch wide dispursion home systems the two horns radiate sound all over the room and this "all over" should dominate over direct to the ear.

4) The direct to the ear (for surround) is what is to be avoided. You don't want your organic hearing system to conclude, "Oh, the bullet zing is coming from that speaker over there." This is, naturally, contrary to dialog which should be localized to the center speaker.

5) One early experiment with home surround was done with dipole speakers. Essentially a diaphragm without a box enclosure. There is strong radiation off the front and back but at the side there is no radiation because the front and back cancel out. The radiation pattern viewed from the top is a figure 8. The speakers were situated so the listeners were placed at the null at the side of the speaker. All the sound radiate toward the front and rear of the room and none directly at the listener.

6) You can appreciate that what you see as suggestions for surround placement is a bit contrary to 4) and 5). It is probably a matter that most set ups are rectangular and people have the money for two ordinary surround speakers.

7) A lot of the signal being put into "surround" is actually mono. The use of two or more speakers can be used, along with some processing, to make the sound non-localizable, i.e. random in phase.

8) In view of the above, you can and should experiment with placement. It could be that putting the surround speakers behind the couch or tucked away someplace, and facing the ceiling or side walls, will work very well.

Of course I invite comment by others. The bottom line, though, is that you are the master experimenter in a unique set up. Therefore there are no pat answers.

Gil

[aWG]

Thanks for the help! I think I may just have to experiment with the leftover speakers I have from my cheapo 5.1 package, figuring out how to position them etc before purchasing the Klipsch. With your advice, I think positioning them slightly behind the secondary couch on the walls might be alright. The advice about what's recorded on the surround channels was pretty helpful. I may experiment with just one at the base of the L to see what kind of effect it makes (and see if my receiver is smart enough to send both channels to it). I'll have to test my games to see if it makes a huge difference having multiple surrounds.

Thanks again!