Fast1

Just curious, especially if you have tested other products like Denon, etc. I am realy trying to make the decision of going to separates or if the right receiver will cover me. I MUST have a low noise floor, as well as clean preamp power for my 2ch listening all the way up to max.

Per some reading, I am just leaning a bit away from getting a newer, better Denon since some say the best receivers out there will not touch the sound of aquality pre amp. I hope this is the right way to go.. I only have a 2Ch amp for the mains now so I will have to find a 3ch or something for the rest. I am thinking of staying with a Rotel so they are all powered by the same brand... On the preamp, I again was looking at Rotel but wondering if there is anything else I should be considering that is a good bang for the buck? I cannot spend too much on this deal right now with a kiddo on the way. I was going to just get a 3805-3808 Denon but people are telling me that separates is a leap forward in sound quality. I will certainly have to buy used, which ever way I go.. I am hoping to find a preamp with with a quality remote so I can program my other equipment with it. Can someone throw some pros and cons to separates vs an AVR?

I am currently running a 2803. I have noticed in 2CH at very high volumes, it gets very bright and abrasive. I tested with an Outlaw pre amp and was MUCH happier with the mid range and performance over all. Much smoother, etc. I want to stick with a receiver for now if possible and maybe go to separates later unless that is not the right way to go. I currently run my Rotel for my main channels but use the amps in the receiver for the surrounds and center. I am curious if the Denon 3800, 4800, 5800 series units will really give me much in terms of sound quality as a pre amp, reduced noise floor, etc? What are the real differences in all of them? They all spec out about the same power wise and all THDs are .05%. I just do not want to miss on getting what I want. Can a high quality Denon or other HQ receiver compete with a pre amp? If a pre amp most certainly is the way to go, who offers a really good setup? One of my complaints on the Outlaw was the noise floor. A little hiss on it. Obiovusly Klipsch find it ALL.... This absolutely MUST double as a theatre unit as well with all the tricks.

Thanks. I am currently shopped for either on the center channel. I VERY much agree on the RC3. However, my 7s still need a new preamp for 2ch listening.

I am strongly looking at either the RW12D or the DLS4000 Velodyne. My brother runs the DLS5000 and I am damn impressed with it!! One advantage I see on the Velodyne is the remote that comes in handy at times. I am also wondering how they would compare sonically. My HGS18 is VERY seemless with my 7s so I still love some of the Velodynes. I will admit that I have not rocked on a Klipsch so no idea how they compare. I would really like to put them side by side. Keeping in mind the budget on this build...

Thanks for the input guys. Keep in mind as McGoo pointed out, I modded my 7s wtih the Dean mod. I think I used theta caps IIRC. They really seemed to lay down better. They seemed harsh to me before. The 7s will straight get busy with my RB1090 on them... 380wpc keeps there very controlled at high volume. Sounds like both speakers are very close. I think anything would be better than my RC3...

Due to space, I will not get him to extend to the 15" stuff. Probably will cringe when I tell him 12" but that is what it will take in that space to fill properly.

I am selling some of my equipment to a guy and he will need a sub. I run a big *** Velodyne but I remember the small Velodynes not putting much down. I am sure the HGS will but that will cost more than he wants to spend. Probably 400 tops for this one. Pretty low level listening. What should I be looking for? Remember used... I was thinking Sunfire, Klipsch K series, "maybe" Velodyne. The room is big so I am concerned about filling it. I also have a hard time buying a "Jensen" wallie world special.... After doing a small amount of looking, I am very tempted to double down on shopping for DLS4000R. Reason is my brother runs the 5000 unit and I am nothing but amazed. my HGS18 can beat it but not by much!! It is a pretty impressive sub, that is for sure! I would compare this to a Klipsch RSW12. I have honestly not hear a KLipsch sub in an installation for for an opinion. Can someone comment here?

I have an older 2803 that I have agreed to sell to a neighbor. He wants to run in another room as well and mine is said to be "multi zone" capable. However, when you switch between A, B, A/B, it always runs the A speakers. There is a port for "multi out L/R". Per the manual, it looks like you have to add another amp or something to run additional speakers. The manual is of no help on how these are wired. Any ideas? I am not sure if you have to have something else connected in order to get this to work, if the 2nd zone is a pre amp only or what... What we were hoping for was to run a separate complete zone I could hook up to. At this point, it looks like I might need some type of switch for the mains over to another set of wall speakers and just run the receiver in 2ch to get those extra 2ch for low music fill. They, of course, would not be used simultaniously.

Thanks. I guess what I was asking is, is there a receiver out there that can really hold it's own against some of the dedicated pre amps? I realize most receivers have pre amp outs. In my experience, the Outlaw pre amp blew the doors off my Denon but I will agree that was not a fair fight with my wimpy 2800 series. I am not as concerned about huge amounts of power from a receiver as my mains are amped, I am just like the flexibility of a receiver if they can compete. Are there other receivers to look at? If Denon is the one to stay with, what series should be a minimum for sound quality? I want to LOSE this hiss that I get from the 2803. I am just not sure if the 4800 series is that much better than 3800 or if it just comes down to creature features that I do not need...

I cannot help but think there would be performance or tonal differences with the quad 6.5s as opposed to the twin 8s. I run my system in 5ch quite a bit and like to push on them a bit. I have found that smaller cones tend to not have much head room or extension. I realize a center's job is to be accurate for dialog, etc and that is my primary goal here. From what I have gather so far, it seems like trying to "pick the fly shit out of the pepper" on major tonal differences. The 64 certainly gets points for looking aggressive...

Thanks. I had planned to mod the 7 anyway so that might make the 64 a better value because I would end up buying the 7 and spending about 200 on it with all the components. I am curious what makes the 64 "difference" in sound? Are they brighter, more laid back, more bass, etc? I would love to hear an A B comparison but will have to settle with views from others. Thanks

My system is listed below. Obviously I need a better matching center. I have been searching for an RC-7 so long that the RC-64 is more common now. Seems I can get the 64 in near the same price range. Just curious if anyone has done an A B comparison of the two to determine differences of the two? Just wondering how they compare.

Just curious if anyone has done this and how it worked out?? I have done this on my RF-7s and was very happy with the change. I may be selling my RC-3 to a neighbor but would still like to try it. The RC-3 always seemed mudded to me. Just can not get clean sound from it. I would like to see if I can improve that.

I am trying to make a decision if a high quality powered receiver can obtain the quality sound I am looking for or if a pre/pro is the only way to go? I think I will stay with solid state for now since the comparison seems rather mixed. I believe my setup is in my sig. My receiver is certainly the weak link and I have tested with my bro's outlaw preamp and the mids filled in, the highes did not hurt so much, etc. Just a much better experience. I will certainly need something that will double for 2ch and surround so DD will be a must and a few other DSP modes would be nice. One problem I have had with the 2800 series Denon is noise when not in direct mode. Obviously Klipsch owners can understand that any noise in the system will certainly make it out of those horms... I am just trying to decide what I need to shop for. I have a chance to dump my gear to a neighbor and upgrade. I would like to do something in the next few months.

I thought this was addressed with the Klipsch 2.5way crossover by giving each driver a different set of frequencies to produce with more overlap than in a typical 3 way system?? Would this problem not be present in all Klipsch centers?

Well I thought I would just start another thread for this topic since it warrants. I have the listed Rotel below. A rather solid amp at near 400wpc and 100 lbs but I still think thereis something I could do to improve the sonics of the amp. I notice theTHD rating is .03% from 20-20K which is not bad but I have to think that the S/N and THD are pretty important values for highly sensitive Klipsches. I was curious if anyone has done internal mods on SS amps or can recommend some reading or other forums on the subject? I think I could sure find it addictive since there are so many devices around me that are SS. My car amps always leave me wanting in the clarity and sonic department. I heard years back of people modding elcheapo DVD players to compete with$1500 units by changing out the DACs, and such. Sure would like to learn more about these small tweaks and where parts are found for such mods. My typical Allied and Newark books probably don't cover audio components much.

Dean, we talked some time ago and I didthe mods on my own per for recommendations. I added all Audio Cap thetas. There was an obvious change in sound but I probably should have tried with just the caps before adding the resistor tweak to see the difference. The Rotel is not bridged because it is recommended to stat at 6-8ohm nominal and that would pull me down to 4ohm nominal. Not sure if the low imedance spikes from the 7s would cause issues. Certainly willing to try if you think that could help me. I am about ready to open that Rotel and see if there are some things that can be changed out to better it's performance. In talking with Rotel, they ID'd a couple things that might help. Worst case, I get to solder the old stuff back on. Possibly upgrade the little, worthless Denon??? I have heard of people changing out transistors and such to improve sound. Just cannot see where a 3800 series would blow me down compared to a 2800 but I have heard there were audible differences. The problems I face is something with distorted guitar or maybe the singing of Rascal Flats. Ear piercing at times and I always turn it at the the start of songs, then drop it drastically at certain times to avoid ear bleed. Thoughts? By the way, where is your Klipsch line up Dean?

Since you guys are obvioulsy up to speed on amps, I have considered tweaking up my Rotel RB1090 a bit to see if I can improve on an already decent platform. I realize most people do not like them but everyone who has compared side by side with a Bryson or Krell says they are very close. I have to wonder if swapping a few components out will get my in a better place.... I notice my amp is rated at THD .03% which is rather high for a klipsch setup. Rotel indicated the dif amps on the inputs could certainly better the situation. I have a complete PCB layout and parts list if anyone thinks this is a worth while venture.... I cannot help but think component in the Rotel are budget bought so improvements could be found....

I am using Audio Cap Thetas in my 7s with the DeanG slight resistor tweak to pull the horns back just a touch. I have heard a tube pre-amp is a sweat sound on horns. I really WANT to hear tubes on these to see how I like it. From the guitar world, there just is not a comparison. Tubes can be spotted a mile away with their rich (not grainy) tones. If I decide to go with a receiver, what do you recommend? I looked at Marantz years ago but went with Denon due to reliability reviews. If I go pre amp and add amping to my other 3 speakers, what amps or pres work good? I have been mostly happy with my Rotel but will admit that I want to open it up and see if there are some tweaks I can do with it. I would love to hear an AB comparison to a Bryston.

Hopefully someone will chime in that has done both on the same speaker to compare the two. I have my RF-7s with stock Xovers and performance caps/resistors. I am wondering how this sound compares to a real active crossover? I want to say the Rf-7 uses a 6db Xover and actives can drop things as quick as 48db. Just curious if stepping into active Xovers could show me an improvement???

Well, per some other posts, I am having problems loving my reference RF7 system and just lacks that range and clarity I am seeking without having a fatiguing harshness. It has been brought up to take a listen to the Jubilee and I plan to do so in the next week or so if Bill is game. Problem is I more than likely will like what I hear and want to move ahead. My questions are: Does anyone have plans for these critters? Looks like most of the work is the wood work. Can these work in an HT setup and if so, what would complement them for rears or CCs? these speakers look huge! Is most of the wood just to get better bass reposnse? Since I have an HGS 18 by Velodyne, I don't lack much in bass. This just got me wondering if a hydrid would put a smile on the face by using acvite crossovers and the Jubilee horn over my RF7drivers?? Might seem odd but most of my problems seem to come from those horns so maybe a top mounted horn would work??? Anyone tried that? I might call Klipsch with some specs of the K402 horn and my drivers to see if they can be mated. If not, maybe a build is in my future. OH, I did want to ask for somewhat of a comparison of the K horns and LaScalas against the Jubilee? Seems the Jubilee is a newer and more refined version of them??

Here is an idea some might like. In my mind, I cannot help but think a RF3 might not be ideal as a main but could certainly work well as a center with the larger horn dispersion, 8in drivers, and larger ported cabinet. I might like to see if I can find a cherry wood single so that I can do the mods to it. Since we own a CNC shop here, I would pull the front plate off the cabinet and redeisgn it so the cone drivers are on the outsides and the horn is in the middle. I would then try it but consider looking to change the crossover a bit to a 2.5way but it might work well as such. If it works well, I would be happy to offer the new face plate if others wanted to try it. Just thoughts anyway

Thanks for the heads up. Sold.... As usual. Either cost too much or sold the day before I call. Probably why I have been looking for years for one.

I modded the crossovers in my RF7s years ago and loved the changes I made. I never did anything with the RC3 because I planned to upgrade to the RC7 but I have been looking for some time for one and everyone is either too proud of them or using them. I have thought about modding my crossovers in the RC3 to see if that helps me in the short term. The smaller package could help for now and I could get a 7 later. My mods would be to replace all elcheapo components with quality components of the same values so no tweaks there. I am thinking about other options for a center channel. I have heard of people using an RF7 as a center. Not opposed to that but understand the RC7 has pretty much a 3 way crossover to improve dialog. Maybe there are other options out there? I think there is a KLF-7or something that is similar but don;t know much about it. My largest complaint with the RC3 is "sound in a box". Not open at all and dialog is hard to understand. Comparing to my modded 7s, there is not comparison so timbre match is totally out. I find myself turning up the volume just to hear what is said, then being scolded for doing so.