Jeff Matthews

I'm not nearly as inclined to research this topic and make myself a sound engineer at the end of the day.... but let me just try to throw some common-sense on this topic. You are talking 2 and 3ms. That's .002 and .003 seconds. I doubt seriously the ear could ever discern such a difference. Even if it was possible to discern it, making it "audible," it still takes a HUGE jump to say this audible difference is significant enough to translate into the ability to affect perceived "quality." I would bet there is nobody that could listen to two tracks (one we would use as a reference, and the other we would use as the "delayed" subject), and sit there and honestly tell me one sounds "worse" than the other. I think given what folks are trying to push in this theory, a more "pure" test might be to have it relate to a single note. With perfectly calibrated instruments, record an "A" for 5 seconds or so. Then, place a 2 or 3 ms gap at the begining of a second "A" and dub it right over the old "A" for the full 5 seconds or so. What you would have in the end is what we are all discussing. You have the frequencies coming in at different intervals. BUT these are the same frequency, so you've removed all the other variables and got right down to delay ONLY. If you did this, could you not measure the pitch with a pitch meter? I would bet without a pitch meter (just using the plain old ears), there is nobody that could distinguish any change in the pitch (or any so-called "noise" this delay might create). I would also bet a pitch meter (I hope I'm using the right name for the instrument - those things that help people tune their guitars, etc.), would also register a perfect "A." Just because you can "picture" the wave "noise" that results from time delay in your head on a graph does not mean you can hear it. I would even bet you could play the single "A" note by itself and insert 2 - 3 ms blank intervals. For example, the note sustains for 1 second, then is shut off for 3 ms, then back on for 1 second, etc. I bet everyone would agree once played back that there is absolutely no discerning any gap anywhere. It would sound like a constant note. Imagine a woodpecker sitting on a tree and pecking it 500 times in 1 second (that would be 2 ms intervals) or 333 times in 1 second (which would be 3 ms intervals). It would have to sound like 1 "smack" to everyone. Now, imagine the woodpecker had 2 differently-tuned pieces of wood to peck, and could peck each 1 at a time, at the same 3 ms rate of speed. There, you might hear a different note. But you will not hear both notes. This is what somebody referred to as delay affecting timbre (not timber[]). But remember, there ARE 2 different notes being played when this occurs; the deal is that they are so close together, they sound like 1 - but only a different 1. That's the same thing that would occur if a guitarist could play different notes that quickly back-and-forth. However, the music we listen to is nowhere close to this example. Nobody listens to 2 notes and calls them a song (except Ted Nugent). Really, though, when you have such a limited number of notes in the mix, it "could" affect timbre, but it would still sound so "pure" there would be no quality issue. When you get a bunch of notes moving around in harmony, there is NO WAY you could ever process this immensely minute difference in timbre. The brain is too busy hearing the song. So, my belief is this delay phenomenon is interesting in terms of picturing graphs and pondering how the "obvious picture" might register in terms of the quality of the audible sound. But I think our brains process sound based upon what the focus of attention is. Ever been watching a news story, and your wife says something, but it doesn't register clearly? Ever been talking to your wife while a news story is on, and the news story did not register clearly? These are the EXACT same sounds, only you heard them qualitatively differently. If you are being a "good" audiophile - not thinking about anything else but that song, there are still so many notes flying around and so much harmony put together that you could never discern any qualitive difference between frequencies that came in delayed by 3 ms. By the way, it is only when these delayed pitches mix that we encounter a "noise" experience. Noise is just a perception of one or more sounds that do not "fit in." What is the frequency of an "A?" Obviously it is in waves/sec. Graph the "A" and graph another "A" on top of the old "A" but adjusted to the right by 3/1000 of a second. The intersections create a new tone. You have a new amplitude and wavelength. What are they? I'll bet the new amplitude and wavelength is so utterly close to the original "A" it's not funny. Compare (1) the variation in frequency of the "new" note from the original "A" and (2) the variation in frequency of the "new note" from the "B flat" that follows up the line from our old "A." I bet the variance shows the "new" note is real snug up against the old "A" and miles apart (relatively) from the "B flat." It would be like taking a trip to the grocery store versus trying to travel outside our galaxy. Y'up. I'm sceptical of this theory. If you want to talk 50ms delay... that's different.

There's a joke behind it. We had a hilarious forum the other night. It got pretty "passionate," so lawsuits were threatened, and the thread got killed and pulled by management. See "Ratings Thread..... Dead." P. S. Work w/Tofu on helping him out. I think he's serious (really). We have a debate about what's noticeable by the human ear.

Dear Klipsch Management: In my 35 years as a professional audiophile, I have never seemed to find a speaker that I consistently enjoy. That some of your members on this forum would suggest I enjoy a speaker when I don't is demonstrably the highest degree of intentional infliction of emotional distress, for which no semblance of toleration can be permitted. Rather than turning this matter over to an attorney for legal action, I demand you remove all proof of my self-contradictions from this forum. Officially and for the record, Heresies WERE only the finest speaker in the world of their kind a year ago. Today, I maintain they are "an instrument of torture, Tomas de Torquemeda would have used these." With Gravest Concerns, Tomas Brennan de Torquemeda[:$] DISCLAIMER: This is not a statement made by Tom Brennan. It is fictional and for entertainment purposes only.

Well said, Dean.

Al, Give a man a fish/Teach a man to fish.... Google "Tom Brennan" together with "Eleanor Powell" at the same time. Good luck, luck, luck, luck, luck....

Post a thread to let us know how you think they compare w/your Cornwalls.

Hey, Tofu. I got to thinking, and it dawned on me. You have the "delayed" LaScalas. You probably would want to accelerate and see what happens.[]

Are they pretty or need some cosmetics?

Hey, TBrennan! Did you see I got my KHorns? I'm proud of 'em. There is definitely a noticeable difference in the base. Not so noticeable in the MF and HF, though - except on sudden stops w/quiet - then, crash! The bass sounds like it's coming from everywhere between the two corners. Really neat! Sorry the thing got crazy enough on the Rating thread to make you mad. My advice? Take whatever I say in jest. It was a strong debate, but I didn't get personal. In a good debate, my style is very sarcastic, but never hateful. Wonder if Tofu's really going to follow through on this delay issue and confirm or refute Dr.Who's uploads?

That's you talking to yourself! Mr. Brennan's back on. He gave a very diplomatic summary of the dispute and extended an olive branch to keep discussions limited to "avoiding political discussions and sticking to hi-fi." Think it'll last? I hope not, or I'll have to find another forum.

Back into the foray? Hey, it's all good fun. Try not to get bogged down too hard. Congrats up there! Your Sox beat our Astros. The funny thing is your crowd is so mellow compared to ours. Go, Astros!

That's alot of work! You're not going to hear anything.

Well, yesterday was apparently a "get even" day. This is an odd day. I went and got those KHorns, brought 'em home and hooked 'em up. You know, while I was playing one of my favorite Santana CD's, I could swear I heard Carlos tapping twice. Is there something wrong with my new KHorns? Craig??? Tofu??? EdwinR??? I know, let's ask Tom. He'll say anything. BTW, Craig, where's your new avatar?

Tofu was there as it unfolded in all of its glorious, naked beauty!

I agree - Belles are the best-looking loudspeaker. They seem to be so rare, too!

Parrot, it's impossible to summarize. You had to be there!

I thought it to be the most informative discourse between "audiophiles" and "common-sensers" there ever was. Plus, I'll echo Craig. It was definitely the most humorous thread I've ever seen! Sorry to those of you who missed it - especially the cartoon (my new avatar for these lifelong memories of such blissful insignificance)! It was definitely a Classic!

If I understand right, and I think I do.... Easy! Go to Home Depot, Ace or Lowe's and get yourself some mollies. Make sure they work for the screws on your legs. There are different kinds of mollies for different screws. Cost? A trip to the store and $1.50.

Try vinegar.

Thanks for your suggestions. I'll take a look inside the cabinet. It is definitely not some other object. It is the speaker or something inside. Grills are actually linen material stapled to box and trimmed. All is tight outside. I'll check inside. Somebody wanted to know other components. Crown Microtech 1200 amp. Yamaha pre-amp (I'd have to look at model, but it's good (and just a pre-amp anyway). Ands a decent Harmon Kardon CD-Player (single disc). I'll post again after I look inside.

Do I have a bad speaker or what? The left woofer on my Cornwalls will flutter when a specific bass frequency is hit. I know it's the same frequency because the stanzas in a tune repeat for the bass guitar, and it will flutter on particular songs at the same note in repeating stanzas. It sounds a little bit like bending one of those spring door stops and letting it go. Doy-y-y-y-y-y-ing. The flutter lasts as long as the note... or less, so it's not like the system sounds bad all the time. Actually, it plays great on most everything.... Just that certain frequency.