sredmyer

Whoops I did say new...I meant new to me (ala ebay)...I am to cheap to buy new. Both bragging rites and sound are important to me. I would say that sound is more important but in truth it probably depends on my mood. Since (as I noted above) I am most likely to get whatever I get from ebay or AudiogonI have to buy it to listen to it...this can get rather expensive (and as I mentioned above I am cheap). So I am just looking to get advice from other who may have been down this path before ponying up any cash (did I mention that I am cheap)[] Just for the record I do realize that my thrifty habits (that sounds better than cheap don't ya think) are somewhat at odds with this particular hobby...but that half the fun...seeing what great deals I can find. Thanks to all you of guys for the help and insight Steve

Ok so I am starting to get the idea that although my Adcoms are decent enough amps with plenty of power they might not be a particularly good match with my RF-7s. So what do you guys think of the newr Adcoms (ie. the GFA-7807) do they exhibit the same "bright" characteristics as the older (GFA-555) when paired with the RF-7s? What about any of the mods done to tame the 555 such as the ones performed by these guys http://www.musicaldesign.com/adcom.htm Not being the slightest bit technical in electronics nor a golden eared audiophile, I am unsure about these mods. Has anyone here tried them? If not can anyone hear explain the impact of switching capacitors and resistors and such as these mods do. Any thoughts on the value of these mods. Seems a tab expensive to me. After all I could just sell of the adcoms and go for a different amp and the net out-of-pocket would be similar. But then who knows what I might think of the new amp...damned difficult these decsions.[]

What!!!! the great American made speaker made in China???

Looks like a great deal I bought mine as a refurb directly from Klipsch and paid more than that. BTW The link provided shows an RSW-12B. What is the "B" designation. Are all RSW-12's "B's"? If no how does the "B" designated sub differ from the plain RSW-12 (no "B") I use mine almost exclusively for 2 channel music with my RF-7s and it rocks and is very musical. NOTE This is just my opinion yours or others may be different.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Klipsch used drivers manufactured by Eminence speaker company. Can anyone confim this, specifically for the Refence line (RF-7, RC-7, RS-7).

I bought a pair of RF-83s and a RC-64. Nice, congratulations!! How do you like them compared to the 7's? I found the 83s to be a little softer in the highs and maybe a little stronger in the mid-range. I had a week to A/B the 83s before deciding. The first night, they sounded awful. I thought they were defective. I let them play for a couple of days while I was at work in case they needed some break-in. They started sounding much better. They seemed to sound better each night. I went back and forth thinking that I had made my decision. Since they continued to grow on me, I decided to keep the 83s. They are both great speakers. Very similar, but a little different. It would be interesting to A/B them again since I haven't listened to the 7s for a while. Then again, that would probably confuse me again. So do you think you will be applying the DeanG modded xover to these 83's? Does Dean even have an xover designed for these yet?

So why do you think it sounded so much better with the Aragon? Was this just due to "voicing" of the Amp? I have heard of a few mods to the GFA-555s which change the sonic characteristics of the amp but the power ouput is unchanged. Or was it due to the fact that had more power available as the impeadance dropped? So we are talking about "voicing" and the sound of an amp. My original question is not really about that. What I am curious about is when looking for a high power amp to work with my RF-7s which type of headroom is more important; shear watts (as indicated by an amps rated RMS) or the ability of the amp to double the power when the impeadance drops. Yeah I like yours better than mine. Not only is yours framed it seems as though the picture itself is of higher quality. I use the same bmp for my HTPC destop background image. Looks kinda cool seeing this image on a 50" plasma in the listening room...kinda sets the tone for what it is all about.[]

That is the crux of the question; What is headroom? Is it more rated watts? Or is it the ability to double the watts when the impeadence halves?

I bought a pair of RF-83s and a RC-64. How do the new refernce line compare to the 7s?

I have heard that it is better to have more power than the speakers are rated for and I understand this. I understand the whole clipping thing. When talking about powerful amps though is the actual rated power (watts per channel) important or is it more important to get a modestly rated amp that doubles its power when the speaker load is halved. IOW is it better to feed my RF-7s (rated for 250 watts rms 1000 peak) with a amp rated at 150 watt into 8 ohm that jumps to 300 watt into 4 ohm. Or is it better to get an amp which has a 400 watt into 8 ohm rating but does not double (or is not even rated) into half the resistance? Is either senario preferable? Why?

I have noticed this to with my setup. I had always thought that it was me (not my gear). As I have noted in other posts, some friends who have listened to my system say that it sounds harsh to them (at high volume levels). I did not understand what they were talking about because it just sounded very acurate and real to me. I however, had most likely been listening to the system for awhile when they came over. The longer my friends stayed to listen the better they thought it sounded. I also notice that if when I first begin a listening session I play a song that I prefere loud it does not sound as good as it does if I wait to play it later in the session. So I had always just figured my ears needed to aclimate themselves to the crisp sound of the RF-7s. I never even suspected that the speakers actually needed to warm up. Even though a large bit of what is written here is over my head, I learn so much reading these post...I love it

I appologize to the OP for hijacking this thread but could somebody detail how the DeanG xover mod changes the sound of the RF-7s. Also DeanG if you see this what is the cost of the mod and how do you do it? Do you simply sell the new xover and I have to install? Do I bring you my speakers (I do not live to far away) and you install?

Yeah I have heard that the Adcom is known to be a bit bright. There are folks out there doing mods to these amps which are said to "tone down" the highs. However, as I have said I have come to enjoy this "brightness" and miss it when listening to a system that does not have it. I have my system setup with the HK AVR 7300 in multi-room mode. My second zone is my sunroom and consist of two Polk Audio Monitor 30s and an el-cheapo 10 inch sub. This zone is powered only by the HK. These Polks have a very mellow sound when compared to the same material playing indoors on the Klipsch powered by the Adcoms. The difference is quite obvious when walking through the door, and I prefer the clarity of the indoor system.

Ok this makes no sense to me but here are the results. Same 70hz sine wave signal as before AVR volume @ appx. 25% RSW-12 gain at 100% = 91db Volume control disconnected = 80db If the volume control disconnected should result in max output why is the subs ouput in this configuration so much lower than with it connected and the volume control all the way up? I will check into this Monday morning and get back to you on that, I should have said "should" not "will", I know for sure this happns with the RW subs and they use the same vol as the RSW. I don't have the schematics here to double check this Steve, In the interest of understanding the true nature of the problems I am having with this sub (or maybe my system) I would be willing to bring the sub up to indy and let you guys look at it. Of course this would not solve anything if the issue is not with the sub but with my system but I am working that front to.

I know what you mean about the whole amplification thing. I was originaly powering all of my Klipsch speakers from my Harmaon Kardon AVR7300 but my wife (who is a real metal head) wanted more power. I thought that in and of itself was amazing seeing as how the HK delivers 125wpc with 2 channels driven (110wpc with all channels driven). But anyway I set out to find another amp to power the RF-7s since for music (which is what my system is used for primarily) we only listen to the system in 2 channel mode (plus sub). What I ended up with was an Adcom GFA-555 which is 200wpc. When hooking the RF-7s up to this they were a bit brighter (the high end being a bit more pronouced) but other than that not much difference. When the wifey would "get in the mood to jam" she would turn the set up so loud that the clipping indicators on the Adcom would start blinking. And get this...she would say "I wish I had just a bit more volume". So to please the wifey (and because I have no problem having the loudest clearest sounding system in town) I bought another matching Adcom and ran them both bridged as mono-blocks. These babys are capable of putting out 600 watts each in this configuration. Now powered by both Adcoms the RF-7s really came to life. It was literally shocking how much more bass the RF-7s delivered. With the sub out of my system for repair, I still have friends telling me how awesome my sub is. They remark on how hard it slams but...THERE AINT NO SUB just those RF-7s driven with all the power they might want. All of this was a bit of a mystery to me. I thought that since the RF-7s were so efficent (102db/w/m) that meant that they really did not need alot of power. I should also mention that driving them with these bridged Adcoms the sound level in the room is only marginally louder then when i was driving them with just a single Adcom (108db vs 105db). Point is that although the system will go much louder now (I have acheived 115db in experiments) we are not really playing the system much louder, but man what a difference. Now before I get everybody all worried about my hearing, I do not listen at these levels for any length of time. I have played those levels only as experiment to see what the difference between the two hookups was. The wifey however would listen at those levels for an entire evening if I did not step in (I think she is trying to recapture her youth memories of concerts she has been to). As I have said before some of my friends think the the system sounds to bright...I like how it sounds I think it sounds more real. When I hear a system with "tammer" highs I feel that something is missing. I wish I had the opportunity to hear some of the heritage lines though. I hope Mike will tell me more about this pilgramage thing he mentioned in a previous post...it sounds like fun.

Ok this makes no sense to me but here are the results. Same 70hz sine wave signal as before AVR volume @ appx. 25% RSW-12 gain at 100% = 91db Volume control disconnected = 80db If the volume control disconnected should result in max output why is the subs ouput in this configuration so much lower than with it connected and the volume control all the way up?

Yeah they have been great!!

Sorry Steve, I did not intend to mis-quote what you said. I was simply relating my understanding from our conversations. The following quote says, to me, that I was simply unlucky with the first amp and subsequent rebuilt one and that I should be fine using this new one. "The first preamp control shipped may have been the problem and according to tech, use it (the sub with new amp and control) You should be fine now." Again I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I just want this thing to work and to not have to be constantly worried about it so that I can enjoy my system. I found this new problem (low volume) after getting home from work on friday and since I could not contact you (you were already gone for the weekend) I thought I might find somebody here with some info.

Thanks, I have talked at great length with Steve P. on this issue and he has been very helpful. Unfortunately it seems that Klipsch does not manufacture or rebuild these amp/controllers themselves but rather contracts that to someone else. What that means is that when you send one in to be rebuilt they (Hope) simply pulls one off a shelf that has been previously rebuilt and then sends yours out to be rebuilt. I can see how this makes it very difficult to track an individual amp to get any kind of failure analysis done. When you talk to Steve tell him that I am the individual that was asking if DC spikes (created by the pre-amp when the audio stream is switched) could be the cause of the recurring failures. That should spark his memory and allow him to know what issue we are working on. On a separate note (aside from the recurring failure that is) can you think of any reason for this RSW-12 with a brand new (not rebuilt according to Steve P.) amp and controller to play several times quiter than an old cheap sup? I did a bit more work on nailing down the actual problem with real numbers and here are the results. For the test I used an old Technics 100wpc AVR I have in the basement which simply has a Sub out, it has no bass management. I fed the AVR a 70hz sine wave from a PC sound card at a fixed amplitude. I set the crossover adjustments for both subs to 70hz and gain control to 50% I set the AVR volume control to about 25% SPL measurements were done with the RS digital SPL meter set to slow response with C weighting I then connected the RSW-12 and played the sine wave and measured the SPL. The result was 66db. I then disconnected the RSW-12 and connected the el-cheapo sub and played the same sine wave (with all settings being untouched) the results were 82db. Any thoughts here?

No Louisville, KY Tell me more

I am not saying that I do not like my Rf-7s in fact I love them. I just wondered what the heritage lines sounded like and where a guy can go to hear them. As for models carried by BB and CC; When I was shopping for mine, BB had RF3s and RF5s I do not remember exactly what CC had. I had to go to Ovaition to see/hear the RF-7s.

Thanx guys I really appriciate this info. Tell me, where do you all go to hear these heritage speakers? I live in louisville, KY and I cant find a dealer anywhere near me. I can hear the mid level reference series (up to the RF-5s) at the big stores (Best Buy, Circuit City). I actually heard these ones I have at Ovaition (which are trying to sell themselves a s boutique). But I can not find any place that carrys the heritage stuff so I do not have the oportuntiy to hear them for myself. BTW I know the RF-7s & RF-5s and that line has been replaced this year with a new line. I have not been out to listen to those and am nopt familiar with the models. I do not know how high up this new line can be found at BB or CC.

Bill, Thanks for the response. How do any of these three possiblities explain my current situation where the RSW-12 with a new amp and controller is producing WAY less volume than the el-cheapo sub on the same material? I am using a Harman Kardon AVR 7300 to drive the sub and the bass management setting is set to L/R + LFE with the sub gain (in the reciever) set at 0 DB.

Hello all, I hope somebody can help me out here. I am having problems with my RSW-12 subwoofer. The problems started a couple of months ago when I noticed that my sub was not working. I say noticed because my HT system is used primarily to watch the evening news and a couple of weekly dramas on TV. It is only occasionally on the weekends that the wifey and I sit for a few hours of music that the sub even comes on (we use the auto-on feature so it is usually off). Any way when I notice that it was not working I contacted Klipsch and they were very helpful in helping me to identify the problem. It turned out that the driver was shot (showed dead open with an ohm meter) and that the amp/controller was also fried. I got a replacement driver and sent the amp/controller unit back to Hope for repairs. I asked the folks at Klipsch if they could look at the amp and tell me what went wrong so if it was something I did (push it too hard??) or something possibly wrong with my AVR I could fix it and prevent it from happening again. Due to the way they handle these amp returns they were unable to tell me anything. So I just put the whole thing back together and decided to just chalk it up to a faulty unit. Fast forward a month...I again notice that the sub is not working. I do the same tests as before and find the driver to be ok. So again I pull the amp/controller and send them to Hope for repair. This time I include in the package with the amp a note asking the folks in Hope to try to do a little diagnostics before sending it for repair. I did this at the request of the customer service tech I had been dealing with in Indy (Steve Phillips). Again I get my amp and controller back but no failure analysis of any kind. So I put the entire thing back together but do not hook it back up to the system as I am now seriously concerned that something either in the way I use it or in my system is causing the sub to get fried. I email Steve Phillips at Klipsch Indy customer support and tell him of my concerns. Steve responded that the first replacement amp I got was a rebuild but this one was a new one and that his techs felt that I had just been unlucky so far and should just hook it up and not worry. Well I am not so sure. To ease my mind a bit I decided to do a test. I connected an old inexpensive sub (an Optimus SW10P) into my system and disconnected all other speakers (so I could just hear the sub). I played the system for a few minutes and did not notice anything unusual. I then connected my RSW-12 and nothing. At the same main volume (on the AVR) and with both subs set to 70 on the crossover and 50% on the gain. I got nothing out of the RSW-12. I then noticed that at the volume I was playing the Sub was not waking up. Ah thats the problem (I think) and I increase the volume on the AVR. Finally the Sub does come on but the volume (the actual SPL of the sub not the volume control) is incredibly soft. Thinking that maybe there just isn't much there below the 70hz cutoff, I connected the old Optimus sub up and it was at least 3 times as loud as the RSW-12. What up with that??? The Optimus is a 10" 100watt <$150 10 year old sub. The RSW-12 is a 12" 650watt $1K 1 year old sub. What could be wrong here? Anybody got any thoughts? Thanks, Steve

I guess I should have looked more carefully, I did not even notice the sub forum...I think I will take this over there.